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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:19 pm
by Shadowflame909
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Sheodir wrote:And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease. God knows I'm done with CRAB-17 in MRP.

May as well make one the normal codebase and the other the HRP codebase if that happens because MRP dies if it requires a different playstyle due to code changes.


I'd be fine with this if it means I can keep OP stuff in like ash Drake transformation. There's no threat on MRP. Best you get is a spooky carriage ride.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:07 pm
by wesoda25
PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:28 pm.
Reason: why do you ?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:11 pm
by Muncher21
BadSS13Player wrote:Setting up the default SM setup is quite quick and takes 0 thought

Absolutely not true, you only think that because you've done it a million times. If you really want to argue this, revival is just mechanical button clicks once you've learned how to do it, same as the SM.

BadSS13Player wrote:won't be diminishing anyone's fun if you don't do it as quick as possible.

I'm completely fine with massively increasing MD's fun at the expense of a few minutes of an ADHD greytiders time. Death isn't supposed to be fun.

BadSS13Player wrote:Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage or all-around high amounts of damage without consequences or without waiting a long time.

Oh, you don't play the game, or know nothing about current medbay. Got it.

Bonus meme:
Spoiler:
Image

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:12 am
by skoglol
BadSS13Player wrote:This change kinda fucks with plasmamen a lot, making the only roundstart available revival method be a transplant to a human body or Strange Reagent (which is only theoretically roundstart available).


Just insert a heart and defib as normal 8-)

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:11 am
by nianjiilical
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Sheodir wrote:And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease. God knows I'm done with CRAB-17 in MRP.

May as well make one the normal codebase and the other the HRP codebase if that happens because MRP dies if it requires a different playstyle due to code changes.


it shouldnt be a separate codebase but some way to just flag things as 'no-mrp' in the code and have it be a server config would be good in the long term

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:57 am
by PKPenguin321
skoglol wrote:
BadSS13Player wrote:This change kinda fucks with plasmamen a lot, making the only roundstart available revival method be a transplant to a human body or Strange Reagent (which is only theoretically roundstart available).


Just insert a heart and defib as normal 8-)

if this actually works that's pretty epic

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:59 am
by Kryson
BadSS13Player wrote:Additionally, I don't really like surgery that much. It takes a long time and isn't very engaging, it's just the same steps every time with no space to innovate/improvise. The tend wounds surgeries are by far the biggest offenders, being three-step surgeries which take a very long time to complete (especially if the patient has clothes on).


Take the patients clothes off and spray them with a steriliser to make it faster. But yes, i want surgery to have a larger skill depth. It is probably not the time to that though until things have settled after the cloning removal.

BadSS13Player wrote:This change kinda fucks with plasmamen a lot, making the only roundstart available revival method be a transplant to a human body or Strange Reagent (which is only theoretically roundstart available).


I believe you can put a heart into a plasmaman and defib. Strange reagent is available roundstart if you want it to be, run to chapel and ask the chap to bless your water, it works every time. Failing that, mutate melons in the garden, you have dispenser access.

BadSS13Player wrote:Epipens are a rare-ish non-recyclable item. Paramedics already start with a bottle of formaldehyde and a syringe, it should probably be their job to do it.

The formaldehyde recipe is really easy and you have dispenser access, you can even apply it instantly on most patients with the dropper or damp rag. You can buy more epipens for 300 credits if you are lazy, I sometimes buy a few when i have bought my amputation shears.

BadSS13Player wrote:Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage [...]without consequences or without waiting a long time. It is also usable when there are no MDs around.

Syriniver drips cures toxin damage faster than cryo, you just need to keep an eye on their syriniver levels and liver status. Being easy to use with no doctor around is a bad thing, healing should be difficult with no doctors.


NoxVS wrote:I think the limb grower should become a roundstart machine now that you can’t clone. It’s either that or have engineering build one every shift. In reality it rarely gets built, along with other medical machinery like the organ harvester


Getting limbs and organs is already too easy now.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:36 am
by saprasam
nothing can change my mind that this is fucking stupid, i'd rather not spend 15 minutes being revived/reviving somebody because their neck split from their head, also noticed that if somebody went the extra mile and got rid of medical protolathe and defibs through ??? means that basically means permadeath unless botany isnt retarded
i do not like this change

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:58 am
by Grazyn
Anuv wrote:Have cloning someone bring their ghost into a dangerous and scary world of purgatory. Smoke, chasms, spirit monsters. Only if you can manage to get out do you get cloned.

Something like the bubblegum shuttle arena where they have to fight mobs, player-controlled and not, and other dead players. I like this

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:15 am
by deedubya
Muncher21 wrote:
BadSS13Player wrote:Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage or all-around high amounts of damage without consequences or without waiting a long time.

Oh, you don't play the game, or know nothing about current medbay. Got it.

Bonus meme:
Spoiler:
Image

He's right though. For toxins around 60+, or massive damage pre-surgery upgrades; cryo is the most effective method of treatment. It's also the most braindead for a non-doctor to use, which is good for lowpop/shitter medic rounds.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:21 am
by Tlaltecuhtli
i dont think people who say cryo is faster than any other medical treatment are serious or even human beings, a literal bandage + a patch from the vendor fixes half your problems the other half is fixed in green medkits

if you think curing the patient who got hit by a rocket will take more than 5 min to fix becuase you literally not have any chemical, surgery tech, etc just find the barman monkey and head transfrer (2 surgeries with 3 steps each) lava'd miner? monkey swap, everything else is easly fixable organs dont degrate completly withing 15min which means they SELF HEAL once the dude is alive, and most side effects of damaged organs are barely noticeable and will disappear in 2min, the only thing that stops you from defibbing someone is having 180+ brute/burn damage which you can fix it just enough to defib and then heal with chems or white medkit or using the free treat wounds surgery or if you are on a hurry just splash sinthflesh on the idiot . poisons? pentetic acid poof radiations? pentetic acid poof too retarded to follow botton pressing youtube pentetic acid tutorial? use the retarded stomach pump surgery which you can do on a fucking stasis bed that removes any effort of thinking and doing shit fast . brain damage? retarded chems or retarded surgery poof nothing more than 10 clicks, blood loss? click with bandage, bucke to stasis bed and play a mini game of finding which blood you can insert into a man, but even if you are dumb enough to give the dude the wrong blood letter there is little to 0 negative effects as you can just give him pentetic acid or lung-be-gone multiver to remove the toxins
you cant do the medjob during a revolition or ops or murderbone mc joe with carp agressively hugging people in the halls? play on manuel so you can treat your 3 o'clock appendix while roleplaying as succubus md doc (male)

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:24 pm
by Timonk
You can do engineering but you can't do md

Murderbone bias???

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:28 pm
by Sheodir
deedubya wrote:
Muncher21 wrote:
BadSS13Player wrote:Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage or all-around high amounts of damage without consequences or without waiting a long time.

Oh, you don't play the game, or know nothing about current medbay. Got it.

Bonus meme:
Spoiler:
Image

He's right though. For toxins around 60+, or massive damage pre-surgery upgrades; cryo is the most effective method of treatment. It's also the most braindead for a non-doctor to use, which is good for lowpop/shitter medic rounds.


Dee I gotta second what others have said and wonder how long has it been since you played Medbay in any real capacity. Cryo has become a bit of a meme for a reason - if anything it serves very little purpose right now. Other methods of treatment are much, much faster and more efficient which leads to using cryo being the hallmark of a completely new or inexperienced Doctor. Cryo hasn't been the "most efficient" method of high damage fixing since at least 2016 when I believe Cryoxadone got hard nerfed.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:37 pm
by Muncher21
saprasam wrote:nothing can change my mind that this is fucking stupid, i'd rather not spend 15 minutes being revived/reviving somebody because their neck split from their head, also noticed that if somebody went the extra mile and got rid of medical protolathe and defibs through ??? means that basically means permadeath unless botany isnt retarded
i do not like this change

As the saying goes, "You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into".

deedubya wrote:He's right though. For toxins around 60+, or massive damage pre-surgery upgrades; cryo is the most effective method of treatment. It's also the most braindead for a non-doctor to use, which is good for lowpop/shitter medic rounds.

Syriniver for toxin, for any other damage type, sutures or regenerative mesh work faster. If they're dead you have to do tend wounds anyways, cryo won't help them. The only use for cryo is if you are a lazy doctor, or have a massive queue of patients.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:18 pm
by peoplearestrange
I have a question:

Is "Original" cloning still possible? (i.e. brain swapping with monkey humans and then debriefing)?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:26 pm
by Cobby
Yes

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:13 pm
by peoplearestrange
Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:48 pm
by Shadowflame909
peoplearestrange wrote:Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?


We currently have the never used due to the tediousness of getting them exact: roundstart DNA number.

What if you had to match all those digits to clone someone.

Would take forever, would probably need some security to avoid sabotage making all your effort null to correct said 12 digits.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:54 pm
by Arathian
peoplearestrange wrote:Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?


At the very least, this would fit with empty cloning. Someone's body is way too fucked? print an empty, brainless clone of them, shove in brain, defib, tadaa.

Fits with the new direction, keeps cloning code in and doesn't require raiding science to get monkey cubes. You still need to surgery someone, you still need to defib someone, you can fix completely destroyed bodies however.

I honestly don't understand why we have to get rid of the cloning machine entirely. Did it call someone's mothers nasty names? Did it ERP a felinid?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:57 pm
by Sheodir
Arathian wrote:
peoplearestrange wrote:Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?


At the very least, this would fit with empty cloning. Someone's body is way too fucked? print an empty, brainless clone of them, shove in brain, defib, tadaa.

Fits with the new direction, keeps cloning code in and doesn't require raiding science to get monkey cubes. You still need to surgery someone, you still need to defib someone, you can fix completely destroyed bodies however.

I honestly don't understand why we have to get rid of the cloning machine entirely. Did it call someone's mothers nasty names? Did it ERP a felinid?


Best way I can describe the thought process is that these changes are made to try and make specific things happen (MDs play more with medicine and surgery and make revivals more of an involved actual medical process) and having the machine still be around in its current form would negate that in favor of brainswaps and what not.

I can see the machine making a comeback in some form after adaption goes through, but it'd have to take a different shape and accomodate a lot of the feedback given thus far - having a cost for cloning, having it be more about brainswaps, etc

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:12 pm
by skoglol
Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:17 pm
by Qbopper
I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:35 pm
by Sheodir
skoglol wrote:Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.


Instead of a full machine I've been considering switching off a bit of the excess extra medbay space (see: Meta's absurdly large morgue) with a freezer. It'd start with a few organs and maybe a few spare body parts. Could have a few torsos, too.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:20 pm
by zxaber
Played AI last night, watched a scientist get himself killed in an accidental toxins fire. CMO tried to bring him back, repairing his burns and brute damage, and replacing all his organs with cybernetics, but couldn't get him alive again. Eventually, after like 30 minutes of trying, the CMO gave up and went SSD. It was really all quite sad.

It seems that non-cloning fixes for heavy damage isn't quite well known yet. I've seen dead bodies that are most likely quite fixable go ignored by doctors or moved to the morgue because they either don't know how to fix them, or don't want to go through the effort.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 pm
by Sheodir
zxaber wrote:Played AI last night, watched a scientist get himself killed in an accidental toxins fire. CMO tried to bring him back, repairing his burns and brute damage, and replacing all his organs with cybernetics, but couldn't get him alive again. Eventually, after like 30 minutes of trying, the CMO gave up and went SSD. It was really all quite sad.

It seems that non-cloning fixes for heavy damage isn't quite well known yet. I've seen dead bodies that are most likely quite fixable go ignored by doctors or moved to the morgue because they either don't know how to fix them, or don't want to go through the effort.


As said, the documentation really is lacking. I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge. As PM I'm giving doctors a lot of shit if they just "give up" on corpses, but Manuel is Manuel and I'm aware the bar of patience is lessened player-wise in other servers.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:29 pm
by Domitius
After seeing gameplay without cloning it has really changed the dynamic in medbay and people are always busy getting work done.

I love the change to the Delta map where there is a large room with just beds where doctors can quietly work without being interrupted and would love an area like that on Metastation. On Meta after the first couple bodies are brought in there is just no more room to work.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 pm
by Cobby
Qbopper wrote:I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days


kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:45 pm
by Mickyan
Some of the defib messages are unclear/misleading, they need to be more direct because nobody likes having to code dive to figure out what each fluff message means exactly. I'd go as far as adding a short sentence suggesting a treatment such as "heart transplant required", "brain surgery required" etc.

One egregious example is brain_death which gives the message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain damaged beyond point of no return. Further attempts futile." - This state cannot be cured by brain surgery, only by splashing the brain itself with mannitol.
Meanwhile, brain damage gives this message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain tissue is damaged making recovery of patient impossible via defibrillator. Further attempts futile."


Special mention to the line "Further attempts futile." which is shared with suiciding patients. It needs to be exceedingly obvious whether or not a patient is a lost cause

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:02 am
by Qbopper
Cobby wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days


kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.


based, ty

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:00 am
by PKPenguin321
Mickyan wrote:Some of the defib messages are unclear/misleading, they need to be more direct because nobody likes having to code dive to figure out what each fluff message means exactly. I'd go as far as adding a short sentence suggesting a treatment such as "heart transplant required", "brain surgery required" etc.

One egregious example is brain_death which gives the message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain damaged beyond point of no return. Further attempts futile." - This state cannot be cured by brain surgery, only by splashing the brain itself with mannitol.
Meanwhile, brain damage gives this message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain tissue is damaged making recovery of patient impossible via defibrillator. Further attempts futile."


Special mention to the line "Further attempts futile." which is shared with suiciding patients. It needs to be exceedingly obvious whether or not a patient is a lost cause

This would not be hard at all to change, just literally editing a few strings. Good idea and you should do it

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:50 am
by Mickyan
I would but I am not up to speed with a lot of the recent medbay changes, I've been playing paramedic just so I can't be blamed for not knowing some things since it's technically not my job

As a matter of fact I just got back from a round where three of us had to take turns to try and figure out the correct way to apply mannitol to a dead brain because it's inconsistent, confusing and should just be removed in favor of brain surgery

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:40 am
by Super Aggro Crag
I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:46 am
by Ayy Lemoh
Mickyan wrote:I would but I am not up to speed with a lot of the recent medbay changes, I've been playing paramedic just so I can't be blamed for not knowing some things since it's technically not my job

As a matter of fact I just got back from a round where three of us had to take turns to try and figure out the correct way to apply mannitol to a dead brain because it's inconsistent, confusing and should just be removed in favor of brain surgery

Pouring mannitol on brain is harder than doing literal brain surgery?

Is this why people like baymed?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:48 am
by Super Aggro Crag
It wouldn't let me pour it on the brain.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:19 am
by skoglol
Ill fix it, dont worry.

As for mannitol on brain, its only supposed to be done pre MMI. There is a brain surgery for brains that are still in a body. Actually brains are a bit of a mess, braindeath and brain organ damage should be the same thing, so Ill fix that too.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:12 am
by Kryson
saprasam wrote:nothing can change my mind that this is fucking stupid, i'd rather not spend 15 minutes being revived/reviving somebody because their neck split from their head, also noticed that if somebody went the extra mile and got rid of medical protolathe and defibs through ??? means that basically means permadeath unless botany isnt retarded
i do not like this change


If someone has sabotaged the protolathe, the spare board and all defibs, you can still do revival surgery with a stun baton / prod.

Cobby wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days


kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.


Are we sure about this? I thought this was the case, but when i tried to defib a formaldehyde'd corpse it didn't work and i had to do revival. Someone told me there was a 15~ minute timer in addition to the heart damage check. If this is the case, i think this is fine as it puts a dampener on the most degenerate head swapping strategies(carrying a headless formaldehyde'd body with ligament hook in a bluespace body bag).

skoglol wrote:Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.


The machine is doubly pointless due to the low value of monkey cubes. In a world where monkey cubes were hard to get this machine would make more sense.

Ideally i would want to make monkey cubes a valuable resource, in the current meta i just buy monkey cubes from botany.

The biomass cost could be adjusted, but this doesn't solve the problem since xenobio shits out hundreds of cubes.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:26 am
by skoglol
Kryson wrote:
Cobby wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days


kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.


Are we sure about this? I thought this was the case, but when i tried to defib a formaldehyde'd corpse it didn't work and i had to do revival. Someone told me there was a 15~ minute timer in addition to the heart damage check. If this is the case, i think this is fine as it puts a dampener on the most degenerate head swapping strategies(carrying a headless formaldehyde'd body with ligament hook in a bluespace body bag).

ToD check was removed in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/48715. If you are having issues with it currently, make an issue report.



The PR has been updated with a few fixes and changes:
- Cloning disks and scanners rebranded
- Defibs now give you better feedback on faliure and forces ghosts back into the body if they are not DNR'd.
- Brains can again be accidentally attacked, some wrong indentation detected. Also gives feedback.
- Brain death is gone, now just use organ damage since it already did the same thing. This means pouring mannitol and brain surgery should always work.
- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.
- Dying now gives you a message informing you about DNR.

Still on my list of things I think we need is better missing organ feedback from health scanners, as well as some medbay remapping to allow for better patient handling. I want treatment rooms back, both to avoid the two stasis beds in every medbay be quite as easy a bomb target and because with however many doctor slots we really should have workstations for all of them. Some more private facilities could also allow for more shenanigans like brainwashing.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:32 am
by Kryson
skoglol wrote:- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.


Wasn't the point of lobectomy and coronary bypass that they are not repeatable? They directly set organ damage to 60 and prevent you from repeating the operation.

hepatectomy is powercreeped compared to the two former, setting damage to 10 and allows the surgery to be repeated. It should probably be brought in line since it pretty much invalidates liver transplants.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:38 am
by Angust
Sheodir wrote:

I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge.


Please keep medical advice on the Guide to Medicine wiki page only, instead of the medical doctor job page. Else the doctor page gets duplicate info to (not) maintain.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:19 am
by Sheodir
Angust wrote:
Sheodir wrote:

I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge.


Please keep medical advice on the Guide to Medicine wiki page only, instead of the medical doctor job page. Else the doctor page gets duplicate info to (not) maintain.


That makes more sense, thanks.

skoglol wrote:Still on my list of things I think we need is better missing organ feedback from health scanners, as well as some medbay remapping to allow for better patient handling. I want treatment rooms back, both to avoid the two stasis beds in every medbay be quite as easy a bomb target and because with however many doctor slots we really should have workstations for all of them. Some more private facilities could also allow for more shenanigans like brainwashing.


Most maps have space for this now I suppose. I'll be glad to be rid of Meta Medbay's ridiculous Morgue.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:48 am
by zxaber
I don't mean to be a doomer, but something that has been bugging me is the worry that the massive revival time is going to lead to more players either taking a ghost role or else just quiting out once they die. In turn, this might lead to a "meta" of sorts where doctors would end up less likely to spend a lot of time fixing heavily-damaged bodies if it tends to end up with catatonics. This was an issue of sorts already with cloning, but that wasn't a big deal when you could just push the catatonic person out of the way and queue up another dead person.

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:01 pm
by Grazyn
zxaber wrote:I don't mean to be a doomer, but something that has been bugging me is the worry that the massive revival time is going to lead to more players either taking a ghost role or else just quiting out once they die. In turn, this might lead to a "meta" of sorts where doctors would end up less likely to spend a lot of time fixing heavily-damaged bodies if it tends to end up with catatonics. This was an issue of sorts already with cloning, but that wasn't a big deal when you could just push the catatonic person out of the way and queue up another dead person.

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?

It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:57 pm
by Arathian
Grazyn wrote:It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.


The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:06 pm
by Sheodir
zxaber wrote:[...]

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?


The brain scanner is a good idea. Just a way to visually tell your ghost 'hey I'm gonna revive you now'. Showing a yes/no prompt to the ghost (like 'do you want to be revived') would be pretty neat a way to get them to decide if they want to go through the process or not.

Arathian wrote:The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.


Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently. The main issue imo is that a lot of said good-with-Cobbychem Medbay mains are currently on Manuel, providing a bit of a lopsided perspective to the whole thing.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:27 pm
by Grazyn
Arathian wrote:
Grazyn wrote:It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.


The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.

If they are not signing up because of this it means they also find healing to be boring, which is a whole other issue. Usually if there are corpses there are also injured people to tend to.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:49 pm
by peoplearestrange
What is the current "old" cloning scanner now used for?

Also honestly theres a lot of stuff this PR brings up which is really true. Death is too cheap, and having the more finality of death brings about a lot of other interesting consequences. Im keen to see how it will change the general meta of play.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:49 pm
by Arathian
The conclusion of "doctors are frustrated doing a sisyphean task" is not "they will do it, they have nothing better to do", it's they will stop being doctors or quit all together.

This is simple logic.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently.


Source because I have seen the opposite.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:17 pm
by skoglol
Kryson wrote:
skoglol wrote:- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.


Wasn't the point of lobectomy and coronary bypass that they are not repeatable? They directly set organ damage to 60 and prevent you from repeating the operation.

hepatectomy is powercreeped compared to the two former, setting damage to 10 and allows the surgery to be repeated. It should probably be brought in line since it pretty much invalidates liver transplants.


You're right, I misread code. Heart, lungs, liver ones set a value which is fine so reverted repeatable on those. Brain surgery now has a repeatable step and give you some feedback once it finishes to indicate you might need to do it again.

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:43 pm
by Super Aggro Crag
Arathian wrote:The conclusion of "doctors are frustrated doing a sisyphean task" is not "they will do it, they have nothing better to do", it's they will stop being doctors or quit all together.

This is simple logic.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently.


Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:08 pm
by Sheodir
Super Aggro Crag wrote:
Arathian wrote:
Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

Not to turn this into "he said she said" but my source is basically this thread and the Github PR. People who said "as a CMO player" or "as a Medbay player" tended to be supportive, I haven't yet seen a Medbay main that doesn't seem to be (amidst the circle of people who play and talk w me) please to some degree, and most players aggressively attacking the decision either by their own admission or by their lacking Medbay knowledge seem not to play Medbay at all.

Anecdotal as shit and burden of proof etc so feel free to ignore it if it bothers you. But I sure haven't seen less players on Medbay recently, and when I logged into Terry it was as full as Manuel's has consistently been.