CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Qbopper » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm #538101

I can't comment on the current state of affairs, but medical is my favorite role, and the only thing I've seen about it through the years that's stayed the same: people who don't play medbay and have no interest playing medbay making sweeping statements about the medical system and claiming that no one likes X change or Y proposal
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:52 pm #538128

Medbay is my most often played role and I'm getting real sick of people saying "I disagree with you therefore your opinion is anecdotal and invalid because I saw another guy said he smelled a medkit once and loves the changes."

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:57 pm #538130

Super Aggro Crag wrote:snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.


And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Ziiro » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 pm #538141

I'm not sure why this thread is open and you're still going through the rigmarole of testmerging and pretending this is still being decided. The powers that be have already decided. Just get it over with.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby skoglol » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:02 pm #538144

I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby MMMiracles » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:03 pm #538145

I mean it was pretty obvious from the get-go the main purpose of the feedback thread is to point out issues that'd arise from the lack of cloning so steps can be taken to amend them before making the final push. They're gutting cloning but they're still making sure revival and general patient care is still reasonable without the crutch cloning was.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Ziiro » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:05 pm #538146

skoglol wrote:I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?


"Feedback" != "Adjustments"

To put better:
Feedback would imply that if you had enough people with good arguments saying "Hey, this is a pretty bad idea, don't do this" you might reverse course. That is clearly not what is going to happen here. Instead it's "This is going to happen, we need to know what to adjust to make it less bad when it does happen"

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:11 pm #538149

Sheodir wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.


And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread
frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Ziiro » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:21 pm #538153

Super Aggro Crag wrote:frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies


behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:24 pm #538155

Ziiro wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies


behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!
i agree with this guy
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby skoglol » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:30 pm #538159

Well believe it or not, there hasnt in my opinion been any good arguments for non-removal that cant either be solved by rather small code fixes or will solve themselves as players get used to playing medbay without cloning. People ghosting instead of waiting around is part of that transition, and it happened a lot before too but since the cloner dont write forum posts you never heard about them.

The entire point of opening the PR and moving to testmerge is to test the waters and see if we are ready for it from a code perspective. And while there are still things that could benefit from ironing out I do believe we are.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:34 pm #538161

Super Aggro Crag wrote:frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.


Gotta admit my bias because I mostly play Manuel, where this hasn't been my experience in Medbay. Is this mostly on Event Hall or Terry or do we play in different times?

I think it's telling though that the worst aspect is *people* giving up on doctors healing them, not the difficulty of revival itself. I do think revival is as viable as it's always been but that people are just more pessimistic on this adaptation period. Organ damage could afford to be tweaked a bit though, I think everyone and their mom has shouted at Cobby about that.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:35 pm #538162

Im only on manuel as well Sheodir
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Mickyan » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:42 pm #538164

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:07 pm #538170

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Im only on manuel as well Sheodir

That's... weird. I admit I mostly play Paramedic on EST Night times, just about, but I see most people being revived and only experienced one FUCK HE'S GONE AND I WASTED MY TIME with a plasmaman I took way too long to rez due to a sudden bout of SSD in the middle. I'll try and turn off Sec for a bit and see how it goes in Manuel tonight, force myself to look at Medbay a bit more.

In general this hasn't been my experience as PM and Morgue has mostly been a couple bodies at most, but it's worth checking into more, since I THINK you play CMO, if I'm guessing your in-game name correctly?

Mickyan wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to


Long shifts in Manuel are weird. People just kinda give up on the whole thing and I did see an uptick in abandoned bodies in Morgue during these, but I do feel it's more of an issue of the brain just going BORED NOW whenever a shift goes for close to 2 hours. As HoS it's been my personal hell since people just up and give the fuck up on trying to even stick to their own gimmicks - we had a clown taxi that'd behaved the whole shift just go BORED NOW and start aggressively kidnapping people and basically forcing a shuttle call by himself.

So yeah, not a great example to fit all rounds in.
Last edited by Sheodir on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:07 pm #538171

Mickyan wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to

Share that list with me please
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Anonmare » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:17 pm #538175

I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Qbopper » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:49 pm #538182

Anonmare wrote:I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.


it's the most common fucking thing

for fucks sake i want to play the game and heal people and everyone has 2 nanoseconds of attention span
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Timonk » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:51 pm #538183

Please don't put me on the DNR list
Agux909 wrote:
Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel


Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.




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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:40 pm #538217

Anonmare wrote:I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.

It's def the best "pro cloning" argument but at the same time I feel people might adapt and have to other changes such as these in the past

but then I catch myself betting on ss13 players not being idiots and I'm a sec main and my brain glitches out for a hot second
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:51 pm #538221

First of all, my scrubby link as proof I mostly play CMO/MD
Spoiler:
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/muncher21


The cloning changes have made medbay massively more fun to play. MD's and CMO feel like actual crew members who have an impact on the station, not just a special flavor of assistant that hangs out in medbay. I used to play piano songs as an MD because there was nothing to do, and I definitely couldn't do that now (which is good)

I also haven't seen a single person ghost on me while I'm reviving them. I have revived souless bodies, but they were always souless when I started on them.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SkeletalElite » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:14 pm #538243

Muncher21 wrote:First of all, my scrubby link as proof I mostly play CMO/MD
Spoiler:
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/muncher21


The cloning changes have made medbay massively more fun to play. MD's and CMO feel like actual crew members who have an impact on the station, not just a special flavor of assistant that hangs out in medbay. I used to play piano songs as an MD because there was nothing to do, and I definitely couldn't do that now (which is good)

I also haven't seen a single person ghost on me while I'm reviving them. I have revived souless bodies, but they were always souless when I started on them.


The question is whether or not removing cloning increases the amount of souless bodies. Are people just leaving/server hopping when they die because they have no hope that they're going to be revived in a subjective reasonable amount of time?

I think that's the most likely negative outcome of removing cloning. People who want to play the game just server hopping/doing something else rather than sit around and wait for revival. If your body gets taken to medbay quickly I think this has little impact but even if your body ends up in a locker for more than a few minutes any hope of a quick revival is basically out the window.

Much of the argument for this has been that some edge cases will take a lot of effort and that's okay, but I think that in a lot of these edge cases the ghost will just leave out of hopelessness.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:48 pm #538254

ADHD people will sort themselves out of the playerbase, I wouldn't worry about it.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Ziiro » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:37 am #538434

Alright so having now played a fairly chaotic round as doctor with this change: it's bad, folks.

Positive: I feel busy and I feel useful. Medical is engaging.

Negative: Every single issue beyond "take this suture and fuck off" requires in depth surgery and standing around for long periods of time watching a progress bar
Negative: Bodies everywhere, by the time you actually get to them they don't respond to revival
Negative I was doing back to back surgeries for at least 30-45 minutes and I had another doctor to help me. This was with ~40-50 players. The amount of attention demanded for each situation scales horribly with player pop.

Bug: Unlike the surgery table/stasis bed, the roller bed doesn't stop you from beating the shit out of patients when you use the wrong tool.

Additional: Blood loss is basically permadeath for the body if the situation is bad. If you have no extra blood, that just means that people who are too low to survive on their own and process reagents for extra blood will never survive off the stasis bed. I'm probably wrong in this, but it's just dumb. Can the organ harvester also output containers of blood, while it's at it?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SpinnerMaster » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:50 am #538439

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby nianjiilical » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:51 am #538440

Ziiro wrote:Additional: Blood loss is basically permadeath for the body if the situation is bad. If you have no extra blood, that just means that people who are too low to survive on their own and process reagents for extra blood will never survive off the stasis bed. I'm probably wrong in this, but it's just dumb. Can the organ harvester also output containers of blood, while it's at it?


1) take a blood sample from someone with a syringe
2) go to pharmacy and make 90s unstable mutagen (30u chlorine 30u radium 30u phosphorus)
3) inject blood to turn it into 95u of whatever blood type they have

though i bet now that i said this it's going to get nerfed

also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:00 am #538441

SpinnerMaster wrote:
Spoiler:
Image

Round ID? I'm super curious about the a lot of context behind this picture, station time, number of antags, number of medical staff etc.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SpinnerMaster » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:43 am #538448

Muncher21 wrote:
SpinnerMaster wrote:
Spoiler:
Image

Round ID? I'm super curious about the a lot of context behind this picture, station time, number of antags, number of medical staff etc.


129299

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:16 am #538457


Looks like an insane round with 58 deaths (the entire crew). Antags were revs, aliums, and whatever dynamic spawned that I missed. All that with only two paramedics and a single MD to try and handle it all.

Honestly to me this looks like exactly what should happen during a round like this, especially if medbay only has one doctor. Another interesting point is the connected clients stayed extremely stable, but that may just be the round was entertaining to watch.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:32 am #538462

Muncher21 wrote:

Looks like an insane round with 58 deaths (the entire crew). Antags were revs, aliums, and whatever dynamic spawned that I missed. All that with only two paramedics and a single MD to try and handle it all.

Honestly to me this looks like exactly what should happen during a round like this, especially if medbay only has one doctor. Another interesting point is the connected clients stayed extremely stable, but that may just be the round was entertaining to watch.



Antags don't deserve to steamroll the station.

Wheres the fun in the villains always winning?

I think its time to remove the antag freeze so we can get thing lings to replace wizard lings

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:12 am #538470

Actually a good point, we've received a lot of crew content and a lot of stuff has been balanced. In comparison it has become very obvious what aspects of antags now need nerfing in order to keep the game kinda sorta not that terribly balanced. Medical rework seems pretty much done now, why not lift the freeze?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kryson » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:42 am #538485

nianjiilical wrote:also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people


Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.

stasis would be fine if it made the patient untreatable while under the effect and was just designed to give doctors some breathing room, but today where it allows the doctor to fix the patient in a totally consequence free environment is bad design in my opinion.

Shadowflame909 wrote:I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.


look shadowflame, the point of stasis is that it is the monster truck sized training wheels that prevents anything medical related from ever going off the rails since if it does, you just strap them to the magic machine and tend wounds / replace blood / fix their organs / dose them with enough drugs to survive without any chance of the patient deteriorating.
Last edited by Kryson on Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:46 am #538486

Kryson wrote:
nianjiilical wrote:also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people


Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.



Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:46 am #538494

Kryson wrote:

Stasis beds are op

this, i dont get why people just remove x and buff y so people dont complain, then they remove y and buff z in a loop, they should just be nerfed to "slow down" metabolism/bloodloss/decomposing but not a timestop watch like in those japanese porns

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Timonk » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:39 pm #538510

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Kryson wrote:
nianjiilical wrote:also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people


Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.



Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

I second this
Agux909 wrote:
Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel


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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:52 pm #538511

Shadowflame909 wrote:Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.


I honestly prefer "superscience" more than "magical" (tenuous line) but I feel removing stasis bed is misguided. Whilst cloning affected game balance negatively and made a role a lot more boring stasis beds just stabilize organ decay and make decay more about the pressure to find a body rather than the pressure to then speedrun surgery lest it cascades into failure.

Also important to note that whilst stasis beds fit "superscience", so did cloning. My problem with cloning was never thematic.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:46 pm #538529

Shadowflame909 wrote:Antags don't deserve to steamroll the station.

Wheres the fun in the villains always winning?

I think its time to remove the antag freeze so we can get thing lings to replace wizard lings

I don't see how one round of the antags winning means they steamroll all the time.

Win loss ratio for this month seems extremely balanced, almost 50/50 for all game modes except wizard which never won once. Obviously this is a small sample size of games with cloning removed, but I think it's far to early to declare antags as "steamrolling the station" every round.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby peoplearestrange » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:06 pm #538554

Muncher21 wrote:
Win loss ratio for this month seems extremely balanced, almost 50/50 for all game modes except wizard which never won once. Obviously this is a small sample size of games with cloning removed, but I think it's far to early to declare antags as "steamrolling the station" every round.

This is across ALL /tg/ servers. This includes the sybil 2 day long rounds. It includes all of Terry's quick dynamic rounds and it includes the forced balance of no murderbone/rev/cult on Manuel.

Im not really sure you can use that as an accurate measure of game modes.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:05 pm #538565

valid point, peoplearestrange
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:12 pm #538566

peoplearestrange wrote:This is across ALL /tg/ servers. This includes the sybil 2 day long rounds. It includes all of Terry's quick dynamic rounds and it includes the forced balance of no murderbone/rev/cult on Manuel.

Im not really sure you can use that as an accurate measure of game modes.

Is there a better way to look at the data? I'd prefer the W/L ratio across all servers then anecdotal "No one was reviving people during rev/aliens round" once, therefore antags steamroll every round ever.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:29 pm #538568

W/L ratios are very poor data in a a game like SS13, where the quality of the round is more important than the win itself. Sure the wins might be even, but if a crew win is always a 25 minute code red shuttle rush and the cult win is always a cult-tide snowball curb-stomp it doesn't matter what the ratio is.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:39 pm #538582

Dr_bee wrote:W/L ratios are very poor data in a a game like SS13, where the quality of the round is more important than the win itself. Sure the wins might be even, but if a crew win is always a 25 minute code red shuttle rush and the cult win is always a cult-tide snowball curb-stomp it doesn't matter what the ratio is.

I think player skill also factors a lot in it. Other day in Manuel I got Nuke Ops but one of my Ops fucked off wordlessly and another managed to suffocate himself with a 1 tile hallway breach whilst sneaking around

So y'know, you always gotta account for player stupidity

The game being steamrolls for both sides is def still a problem, for example if revs/cult gets caught early on they lose really fast, but if they gain traction they're basically unbeatable 99% of the time
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:23 am #538613

Update of sorts?

I still see a lot of dead bodies never fixed/fixed so slowly they go perma-ssd.

When a huge problem breaks out, bodies simply never get fixed. I was cult leader today and we had some fights and, guess what, security collapsed because no one got fixed. I eventually simply waltzed into medbay and beheaded all the remaining doctors while 5-6 bodies laid in piles.

On "normal" amount of bodies, medbay can usually keep up, but on either mass murder antags (like revs/cult) or in dynamic servers (like Terry) sudden spikes of bodies are usual and I have never seen medbay keep up with them so far.

I still dislike this meta.

The current PR updating stuff like brain damage etc is great though.

Please add a PR about missing/spilled organs though. That's still a huge issue I see doctors getting fucked over with.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:22 am #538635

Arathian wrote:Update of sorts?

I still see a lot of dead bodies never fixed/fixed so slowly they go perma-ssd.

When a huge problem breaks out, bodies simply never get fixed. I was cult leader today and we had some fights and, guess what, security collapsed because no one got fixed. I eventually simply waltzed into medbay and beheaded all the remaining doctors while 5-6 bodies laid in piles.

On "normal" amount of bodies, medbay can usually keep up, but on either mass murder antags (like revs/cult) or in dynamic servers (like Terry) sudden spikes of bodies are usual and I have never seen medbay keep up with them so far.

I still dislike this meta.

The current PR updating stuff like brain damage etc is great though.

Please add a PR about missing/spilled organs though. That's still a huge issue I see doctors getting fucked over with.


I do think if we made stasis beds more plentiful and default for surgery it'd control for this a lot. Organ decay can be a ticking issue.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby imsxz » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:52 am #538644

ive been playing medical recently to be able to confidently take a stance on the cloning changes. i enjoy it, it feels a lot more rewarding to be a fast doctor than it did in the past. Just had a shift on bagil where a bomb went off near medbay and 2 people were beheaded in maint. We were able to stitch the corpses including bomb victims back together in the time that the roundstart cloner would have been able to clone 1 of them. The recent surgery and defib changes have made medbay a lot stronger when staffed by a competent crew, and frankly i think it is a good change for the game overall.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:32 am #538646

imsxz wrote:ive been playing medical recently to be able to confidently take a stance on the cloning changes. i enjoy it, it feels a lot more rewarding to be a fast doctor than it did in the past. Just had a shift on bagil where a bomb went off near medbay and 2 people were beheaded in maint. We were able to stitch the corpses including bomb victims back together in the time that the roundstart cloner would have been able to clone 1 of them. The recent surgery and defib changes have made medbay a lot stronger when staffed by a competent crew, and frankly i think it is a good change for the game overall.


You've never disliked a nerf

Edit: but you don't die often either...

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Critawakets » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:31 pm #538696

Cloning removal only really works on Manuel where there is no murderboning. Fixing like, 5 patients at most is fine, but fixing up an entire station bloody well isnt.

Infact, no murderboning just makes the game more fun. Put it on all servers since imsxz isnt admin anymore.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:38 pm #538702

Theres murderboning on manuel, silent skeleton pirates keep butchering the crew
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby imsxz » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:52 pm #538753

Shadowflame909 wrote:
imsxz wrote:ive been playing medical recently to be able to confidently take a stance on the cloning changes. i enjoy it, it feels a lot more rewarding to be a fast doctor than it did in the past. Just had a shift on bagil where a bomb went off near medbay and 2 people were beheaded in maint. We were able to stitch the corpses including bomb victims back together in the time that the roundstart cloner would have been able to clone 1 of them. The recent surgery and defib changes have made medbay a lot stronger when staffed by a competent crew, and frankly i think it is a good change for the game overall.


You've never disliked a nerf

Edit: but you don't die often either...


I’ve disliked nerfs/changes plenty. I stopped taking them as a personal affront to my ability to play ss13 after techwebs replaces my beautiful old autism RND. Recent nerf that I disagree with is the one to light step. I just don’t behemently express my opinion about them because change is change and new stuff is ultimately one of the few things that keeps me from quitting
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SkeletalElite » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:46 pm #538763

Medbay needs a way to deal with crises, sometimes shit happens and the bodies just keep piling up. I think even with cloning this was a problem, but is even worse without it. A good medbay team could probably effectively deal with this with the tools currently in place, but it will require the competence of numerous people in medbay all working effectively, which is rare. I think some way of medbay to deal with a crisis is necessary, especially if the goal is create an environment where people try to fix problems first instead of call the shuttle when something goes bad.

I think passive tools that are much less efficient than the active work of a doctor is a good way of doing that. One way this could work would be to make cloning take much longer. That way when the bodies pile up the cloner works to get people back in the round as secondary tool while doctors actively revive other bodies much more quickly than the cloner can. In a non crisis situation using the cloner would be a bad idea because you can just revive the body yourself faster, but if you have a lot of bodies to revive having the cloner revive one while you work on others could help the station recover. In the event you do have the medbay dream team, they can work faster without the cloner. This adds a bit of a saftey net though, something too fall back on if medbay is to swamped to handle everything or all the doctors get killed.

edit: Oh and also it helps in the case of escalation, where without cloning, theres a bit of a grey area on what to do if you kill someone you start a conflict with.

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