PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

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PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:41 pm #534441

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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:26 pm #534454

Remove defect free cloning.

Always have cloning give not easily (or impossible) to remove genetic defects.

Gets you back in the round, but no longer without consequences.

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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:29 pm #534455

this PR wouldnt even do anything and the body of it isn't even code

a better middleground PR I think, which we could have merged for a little while to ween players off cloning would be this:

- lock cloning behind late game techwebs
- cloning cannot be upgraded and gives more mutations (as cptant said)
- make said mutations harder to heal than throwing someone in cryo and giving them a roundstart mutadone pill (kinda what cptant said)
- make the cloning machine require chemical input to create clones, kinda hard to make stuff
- and keep the space ruin cause why are we removing it?
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Cobby » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:31 pm #534456

I'd close it myself if my name was on the list.

It doesn't do anything, especially if admins just decide to turn it off config. Literally none of the problems with cloning is addressed here.

It could SUPPLEMENT some sort of PR, but it is not remotely close to an alternative.

Even if it cleared chat history, we can't police memory from either the code or administration. There is nothing stopping the player outside of the fact they MAY get banned if they are too blatant about using past-life memory. The changes to cloning have to be mechanical.
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby AnonymousNow » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:38 am #534469

It's a better solution, but it doesn't solve any of the issues, imagined or otherwise, that caused the massively unpopular Remove Cloning PR to exist in the first place.
I can see where it's coming from, but it's hopelessly optimistic. Outside of Manuel, this just won't work without admin intervention, and such a thing is fuzzy enough anywhat that toeing the line is enough to avoid a bwoink or a ban if there's plausible deniability. We've had text in the past telling people that they can't remember the circumstances around their death, but it just... went away after a few years.
Fixing cloning is going to require more than a simple fluff rule or removal. It needs to be changed mechanically so that it becomes an involved procedure that requires someone at the desk to get the best out of it, and if the fire-and-forget option is still available, it comes with real, tangible drawbacks. Moreso, its alternatives need to be involved and rewarding, too, and they need to be effective alongside the new setup.
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:15 am #534535

This is pretty cool. When I first started playing this is how I assumed cloning worked. Would like to see it tried
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby skoglol » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:03 pm #534579

When I started playing I was a hubbie, and landed on yogstation for a bit. They have cloning memory disorder, and its a bit dumb. This is a rules/policy thing though, I dont see how it is supposed to be an alternative to cloning removal as it doesnt touch on any of the actual issues with cloning.

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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:23 pm #534582

as alt to removal maybe have being cloned give you higher chances of organ failures in the next 20-30 min so it isnt like a insta heal but more of a delayed problem so it is only used when boner mc bony rolls viro and cloning is turned into medieval corpse disposal bonfire and all the doctors are currently in the body pile and have cloning cost biomass (botany or cargo can get it) so they can be actually useful in other ways than weaponry dispensers

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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:26 pm #534583

"WTF NOOOOOOO MY TARGET GOT CLONED?! WTF NOOO MY GREEN TEXT YOU NEED TO LET ME GREEN TEXT AAAAAAAAAA"

If u dont know how to prevent a cloning then don't play antag
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Reyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:08 pm #534620

Super Aggro Crag wrote:"WTF NOOOOOOO MY TARGET GOT CLONED?! WTF NOOO MY GREEN TEXT YOU NEED TO LET ME GREEN TEXT AAAAAAAAAA"

If u dont know how to prevent a cloning then don't play antag


The issue isn't preventing cloning.

The issue is preventing cloning without going from stealth to open fucking warfare with the station. Just some context


Also, Genetic defects from cloning... Yeah no that doesnt solve the innate annoyances of cloning, and of medical cloning every fucking corpse they find.
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby ATHATH » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 pm #534664

Super Aggro Crag wrote:"WTF NOOOOOOO MY TARGET GOT CLONED?! WTF NOOO MY GREEN TEXT YOU NEED TO LET ME GREEN TEXT AAAAAAAAAA"

If u dont know how to prevent a cloning then don't play antag

You're missing the point of this PR. I don't give a rat's ass whether or not someone gets rezzed and outs an antag (hence why I explicitly said that getting rezzed by surgery, defibbing, or the like WOULDN'T cause memory loss); this just happens to be a convenient way to nerf cloning without saddling the clonees with horrible, annoying shit like "uncurable mutations" or "uncurable brain" traumas or something like that. As a nice bonus, this is a nerf to cloning that WON'T cause Medbay to get too overwhelmed when half the station gets murderboned (unlike, say, the proposed "just increase the amount of time it takes to clone someone" solution(s) or the "just remove cloning lmao" ""solution"").

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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Flatulent » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:43 pm #534670

how much exactly do you remember if you get cloned? for example, do I remember going into xenobio maint if i get killed by traitor there?
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Cobby » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:49 am #535015

I don't think that would be a question for code-section. If losing memory existed, it would have to be configurable so admins can explain to the player what point can they remember.

It's very much an admin issue (which is why the PR is a lame alternative to the coding one)
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Arathian » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:36 pm #535059

I prefer removing or putting cloning behind tech over this. This will get broken all the time.
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Flatulent » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:01 pm #535082

Arathian wrote:I prefer removing or putting cloning behind tech over this. This will get broken all the time.

but it's also a perfect opportunity for jannies to fill their ban quota

however, this pr pretty much requires admins to constantly check if cloned players are breaking the memory loss and pr's requirement is pretty much impossible to enforce
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby deedubya » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:26 am #535257

I know I vouched for this in the other topic, but in hindsight this wouldn't work with the current community tg has become. Jannies wouldn't enforce it and players would just ignore it.
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby Anonmare » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:43 pm #535297

Wouldn't work outside of maybe Manuel, hundreds of players abuse ghosting because there's no way to 100% prove that you did abuse it and, be honest, none of you would actually follow the rules
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby OFQ » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:59 pm #535306

It would be pretty good rule for all types of revivals that you need a brain of the person and the brain shouldn't be rotten. Totally dead brain (turned into a ball of slime) should be useless. Somewhat damaged brain can be fixable with mannitol or some cybernetic memes (my be add levels of damage, some gene memes or implants that stop rotting or serve as a black box with your memories, nanite/virus memory shenanigans). Storing brain for extended duration must be possible in an organ bag or maybe as an image that you imprint into a clone. The process of digitization should destroy the original brain and the image should be non copyable(you can use some kind of GITS or copyright fluff) unless you are up to hardcore RP when players must forget X minutes since one particular moment half a hour ago or Y minutes depending on which "back up" is used. Maybe make it copyable with antag items/emag it will be better since antags usually somewhat experienced. Also editing "backups" could be fun, like adding/removing mental condition(make someone a pacifist or merge 2 "backups" to give split personality disorder, brain washing, mind control or simply reading the chat log and notes (sec would really like this).
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby OFQ » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 am #535492

On the topic of making cloning more engaging, we can take some ideas from "The 6th Day" where cloning dudes SPOILER ALERT maintained a stock of clone blanks and then like morphed them into certain persons that needed to be cloned. After all is done they uploaded an image(brain scan) of a dead person into the body. You get that image by scanning retina of a recently deceased comrade with intact head. There also was naturally occurring drawback - PTSD from dying in a horrible way. And "upgrades" like AAAA SPOILERS AGAIN dying in X days so you won't derelict your duties - after ripping you can get cloned again. There also was one another stupid movie with interesting ideas like making different types of clones for different jobs + wireless upload of consciousness. So basically "Surrogate" but with higher stakes.

So how about this, new job "cloner operator" with the duties:
  1. Maintain a set of generic humanoid/plasmameme/... vat grown clone blanks. They can get damaged and have different quality. If you lucky, one day R&D will unlock universal clone blank.
  2. Go around the station and scan dead brains. If you find a rotten one you can try fixing it, the time is critical because once the brain is a mush it is game over for the nerd.
  3. Receive visitors that want to be cloned one day (or to be moved into a fresh body now), record their preferences, scan them genetically to morph those blanks into the person's copy and then bug surgeons/geneticist/virologist/robotics to install upgrades that the client requested or DIY. On a slow day you can upgrade clone blanks with some generally preferable implants and such.
  4. Discard/recycle/dissect/give to the chef bad clones/blanks(taste like chicken).
  5. Plug a brain scan into console and entertain it with some VR, ask it what happened with the old body and who will pay for the new one.
  6. "patch" brain scans. More better "patches' can be acquired via uplink.

I think this job not only would be pretty fun but it also gonna make whole medbey busy with cloner operator requests. And if they won't cooperate... The time will come and cloner memers intact their revenge by giving the nerds clones with peg legs :twisted:
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Re: PR discussion thread:alternative to removing cloning #48700

Postby OFQ » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:16 am #535495

If you are against multiply copies you can add fluff that forbids it on the corporate ethics grounds or something so all the cloning machinery has some kind of DRM that "normally" (emag) prevents creation of multiply copies of the same brain scan and the brain scanning device uses super powerful laser that totally destroys the scanned brain.
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