/tg/Station 13

While stun batons were able to stun and render you completely helpless, there was a weird period where most other melee weapons, if they weren't doing literally the same thing as the stun baton (namely, things like mjolnir and most martial arts), you would likely find that most any melee weapon just wouldn't cut it compared to what the stun baton used properly with harm intent (that is, switching it on and off to conserve charge) did in comparison. Sure, it didn't do much damage but damage is hilariously a very subsidiary effect in space unless it is extremely overwhelming simply because it carries with it the more important effects that weapons apply. Disabling effects.

Stun batons generally still hold that benefit even though it doesn't render you helpless since what it DOES do is put you at a fairly considerable disadvantage, such as disarming you of weapons and making it near impossible to run without stimulants. Weapons like the esword get seen as very powerful because of the numbers and the price tag and the intimidation factor, but in practice often the weapon doesn't really perform much better than things like the stun baton in the same situation, and often does far worse. Primarily because it's subject to things like armor (stun baton does not care about armor), it isn't able to inflict disabling effects without considerable RNG, it doesn't kill people terribly quickly, and it doesn't force someone to engage with the combatant at all since it can't disable people reliably or quickly. People can find ways to get around the esword and work towards combating. We've largely been very resistant adding means of protecting against the stun baton. Pump Up is kind of a joke, as an example, since the knockdown isn't what ultimately kills you, it's the slowdown from the stun baton and the knockdown having likely disarmed you.

What I want to know is whether this is because since stun batons are something of a crux onto which much of the game's fighting system is based on (most combat chems are based around combating this weapon after all), is it simply smothering other alternatives or is the weapon the basis for what other weapons probably should be doing, or are its effects too much? Should other weapons and abilities be brought in line with the stun baton?

What I want to also talk about is how much the stun baton is built around being that melee powerhouse because it hits all the right marks for being so. It forces people to remain engaged upon (IE they can't run 65 stamina harm deep unless they're popping adrenals or are a ling), it causes people to drop weapons and items, and it is only another hit before the victim needs to go down for a good amount of time.

This is compared to the esword, where one hit doesn't even slow people, and it takes about 4 before the victim enters critical. In this time, usually if the person is able, and most everyone CAN because things like shove are very powerful defense mechanics, they can fight back. Oddly, this makes eswords more akin to sidearms or execution weapons rather than what you actually use to kill someone. What you would really be using is something LIKE the stun baton. OR, at the very least, something to keep the victim of your attack near you to keep hitting them.

This is why martial arts also rely so much on stuns. The combo system actually just doesn't work unless you can keep someone standing still, and hilariously, this means that removing the stuns from martial arts renders them pretty nonfunctional. One of the few weapons that ISN'T terrible as a melee weapon is actually the captain's saber, and that's because its huge armor penetration makes it able to reliably dismember limbs, which makes it fantastic for disabling people and finishing them off while protecting the user with the block chance to some degree.

Melee is reliant on sticking power and how easily you can keep someone close to you. Stun batons do this the best. Most everything else does this dreadfully.
TL;DR Are stun batons where we should take other melee weapons towards to bridge the gap of power, is the dichotomy fine and fair, or is the problem with the stun baton? What changes need to be made to everything else to fix them?

NecromancerAnne wrote:

Spoiler:

What the fuck is wrong with block? What would be a better system than this?

Maybe a 100% block rate for the first strike while causing some stamina damage to the blocker. You then need to regain composure while block charge regenerates at a rate decided by the blocking item. Some premium items could have two or more block charges stored.

Maybe hits with heavy weapons would make the block charge regenerate slower and the clown hitting you with a fork would regenerate the block charge next tick and drain very little stamina.

This will make blocking items stronger in a 1v1 matchup but weaker in a large brawl.

I don't know how to remove RNG from blocking without some kind of solution like this.

NecromancerAnne wrote:snip

All weapons even unarmed hits should apply some level of stamina damage, with the stubaton simply being the fastest way but doing the least actual damage. Think about it - being hit with a bat a lot would knock you out, likely far before you're basically dying on the floor (Im not talking realism per say, but fiction rules. a lot of "Non lethals" in fiction is hitting someone with a blunt weapon really hard and bam they're out cold)

Further stamina damage should cause unconscious after a certain threshold (much like tasers can). SHoving should also apply stamina damage since it is currently useless to shove someone in an unarmed fight.

Stamina damage should be the meta and what the combat is based around, stunbaton just got a headstart

the stunbaton is the last cancer and will be removed so help me god.

oranges wrote:the stunbaton is the last cancer and will be removed so help me god.

Would you rather that Sec was disablers only? I don't mind the concept, but I do believe Sec is struggling a bit as is. Maybe buffing the disabler would counterbalance this somewhat? Or adding a melee equivalent to it?

Trouble is, the more non-lethal combat options you nerf into unusability, the more often players will resort to lethal options to resolve conflict. There are ways to keep those non-lethal weapons out of unintended hands while not removing their effectiveness for their intended users, which I imagine is the entire issue here.

Here's some changes I'd suggest instead, relating to stun batons in specific: If there are any batons/full secbelts in security checkpoints, remove them. Those lockers are so piss easy to sneak away it's not even funny. Alternatively, lock stun baton activation to only allow a mindshielded individual to turn it on. That'd remove the possibility of unrobust security being a loot pinata, at least.

Along with the above, the stunprod(not the baton) should be changed significantly. Removing it entirely is the nuclear option, and certainly a possibility. Definitely make it unable to be stored in a bag of holding. It'd help ensure you can't conceal carry it, as I imagine was the intention.

good, they should resort to lethal options

Alright, and that's fine for antags and general crewmembers. That's why I'm suggesting to get easy stuns out of their hands. But, are you saying security should also just go full Detroit PD and gat anyone that looks at them funny as well?

yes

Didn't we just do a whole thing about trying to prolong the shift and make death more meaningful and harder to come back from.

And now the official direction goes to "btw seccies should gun down people by default"?

edit: also, didn't you wanna buff sec like...3 months ago? We had a whole big thread about it too.

Arathian wrote:Didn't we just do a whole thing about trying to prolong the shift and make death more meaningful and harder to come back from.

And now the official direction goes to "btw seccies should gun down people by default"?

edit: also, didn't you wanna buff sec like...3 months ago? We had a whole big thread about it too.

I think he was joking

I am not joking and people need to stop running from cops

I agree with orange man, stun batons being an auto win just trivializes melee combat. The last nerf actually made it relatively possible to beat someone using it (I've beat a baton user with a desword and another guy I shoved into a wall after he clubbed me and before I fell over).

I'm not as much a fan of how absolutely worthless the telescopic is though.

What if instead of being auto stun/knockdown/disarm weapons they only did raw stamina damage? I imagine it'd be much easier to balance them against lethal options if it takes more than 2 non-lethal hits to horizontal a guy.

Say it takes 4 stun baton hits to down a guy (and the first 3 hits at most just slow your speed due to stamina loss and the fourth reaches the stamcrit point) it gives sec a non-useless non-lethal melee to use on regular shitters but when Darth Maul pops out maybe don't baton charge the guy.

Regular eswords if I recall crit in 3 slashes which makes it objectively better than the glowing stick in this case.

Also - please drop the molasses cool down on the telescopic in exchange for the useless knockdown

It's worth noting during balance discussions that security weapons don't always remain in security hands. Cheap stuns in the hands of a sec officer are just as unfair as cheap stuns in the hands of a tider.

Farquaar wrote:It's worth noting during balance discussions that security weapons don't always remain in security hands. Cheap stuns in the hands of a sec officer are just as unfair as cheap stuns in the hands of a tider.

That's why I'd rather we try and keep them in the hands of security, or at least make them much harder to get for a tider/antag.

i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:I agree with orange man, stun batons being an auto win just trivializes melee combat. The last nerf actually made it relatively possible to beat someone using it (I've beat a baton user with a desword and another guy I shoved into a wall after he clubbed me and before I fell over).

I'm not as much a fan of how absolutely worthless the telescopic is though.

What if instead of being auto stun/knockdown/disarm weapons they only did raw stamina damage? I imagine it'd be much easier to balance them against lethal options if it takes more than 2 non-lethal hits to horizontal a guy.

Say it takes 4 stun baton hits to down a guy (and the first 3 hits at most just slow your speed due to stamina loss and the fourth reaches the stamcrit point) it gives sec a non-useless non-lethal melee to use on regular shitters but when Darth Maul pops out maybe don't baton charge the guy.

Regular eswords if I recall crit in 3 slashes which makes it objectively better than the glowing stick in this case.

Also - please drop the molasses cool down on the telescopic in exchange for the useless knockdown

I've suggested before making all weapons apply some form of stamina damage and on the flipside nerfing the batons actual damage severely. I mean, it still makes sense to me you'd knock someone out good if you beat them over the head with a toolbox, before he started going into a critical condition.

Stamina damage is a great mechanic that I feel is very underused right now.

Given stamina damage and actual health damage isn't influenced by one another for whether you enter critical condition, it is actually not an unreasonable suggestion even if it DOES make judging health more tricky.

A lot of weapons are built around this item existing as well so things like desword and carp must be looked at together with the baton removal

it's amazing how much the sec baton has been nerfed over the years and it's still bad apparently

NecromancerAnne wrote:Given stamina damage and actual health damage isn't influenced by one another for whether you enter critical condition, it is actually not an unreasonable suggestion even if it DOES make judging health more tricky.

Maybe allow people to see their numeric stamina value on the HUD? It's hard for a person to tell how bad a serious wound is exactly at a glance, much easier to tell how tired or conscious you're feeling.

Cobby wrote:A lot of weapons are built around this item existing as well so things like desword and carp must be looked at together with the baton removal

Or, we could just not remove one of the most iconic items in this game. That is also fairly balanced since the stam change and basically everyone likes.

Maybe next up we remove insuls and gasmasks...

argument to culture

oranges wrote:argument to culture

It's also a correct argument. The baton is on the top 3 of most recognizable ss13 items. It also doesn't carry complaints in-game ever since the change to stamina combat. Yeeting it without a really good reasoning is bad form. If you want people to get behind removing one of the most icon ss13 things, at least explain your reasoning.

It is an argument that holds absolutely no weight for me, so you are wasting your time.

Absolutely nothing in this game is sacred to me

Ok.

Enjoy the shitshow then.

Are you seriously saying we should keep an item that actively holds back all melee combat in the game for soul?

are you saying that bah wip gla bloop shibbidy doo WTFRIGOLA i had an EWWWWSWORD and I got "STOONED" ???!?!?! wtf?!!!!?!!?! MORE

RNG

REQUIRDD

till my text........

IS GREEN

if i dont get my DAMN WAY.....


is it any coincidence that maintainers have GREEN text names and their only goal seems to be to make it EASIER for antags to get GREEN TEXT?

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I refuse to repeat this nonsense

Take it to NTR hut

oranges wrote:Absolutely nothing in this game is sacred to me

we know. you also hardly ever play it https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/optimumtact

Armhulen wrote:an item that actively holds back all melee combat in the game

does it

Taraiph wrote:

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I refuse to repeat this nonsense

Take it to NTR hut

Im allowed to have an opinion and i use hyperbole and humor to deal with the stress i experience when the callous hand of the coderbus strikes down another aspect of the game i enjoy. Who are you to judge me

cacogen wrote:

Armhulen wrote:an item that actively holds back all melee combat in the game

does it

good, anakin, good! argue about the balance of the item instead of ss13 culture!

fact is that melee combat in this game will probably never be good, it's a spamclick until you win or the other guy runs away regardless of if youre using a stun baton or a plastic fork.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: is it any coincidence that maintainers have GREEN text names and their only goal seems to be to make it EASIER for antags to get GREEN TEXT?

it's no coincidence

Kill all stuns.

A great improvement to melee in general would be directional attacks that don't require trying to hit a moving sprite.

To build on that, you could add backswing and attack speed as tweakable statistics for weapons, making it possible to miss melee attacks. Batons could then be slower weapons that need to be swung carefully and leave an opening if dodged, while energy swords could swing quickly and make it very dangerous to engage in melee with the user even if moving nimbly.

That way a skilled fighter could bait a baton hit, sidestep it, then shank the enemy a couple of times before retreating and repeating the process.
The stun baton would still be a threat, as well as a great first-strike tool, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best melee weapon in any situation.

XDTM wrote:A great improvement to melee in general would be directional attacks that don't require trying to hit a moving sprite.

To build on that, you could add backswing and attack speed as tweakable statistics for weapons, making it possible to miss melee attacks. Batons could then be slower weapons that need to be swung carefully and leave an opening if dodged, while energy swords could swing quickly and make it very dangerous to engage in melee with the user even if moving nimbly.

That way a skilled fighter could bait a baton hit, sidestep it, then shank the enemy a couple of times before retreating and repeating the process.
The stun baton would still be a threat, as well as a great first-strike tool, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best melee weapon in any situation.

Less pixel clicking would be good

Does BYOND even support a method that'd be like, say, holding control + a direction or so? How would it sort if multi hittable things were in a tile?

Sheodir wrote:

XDTM wrote:A great improvement to melee in general would be directional attacks that don't require trying to hit a moving sprite.

To build on that, you could add backswing and attack speed as tweakable statistics for weapons, making it possible to miss melee attacks. Batons could then be slower weapons that need to be swung carefully and leave an opening if dodged, while energy swords could swing quickly and make it very dangerous to engage in melee with the user even if moving nimbly.

That way a skilled fighter could bait a baton hit, sidestep it, then shank the enemy a couple of times before retreating and repeating the process.
The stun baton would still be a threat, as well as a great first-strike tool, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best melee weapon in any situation.

Less pixel clicking would be good

Does BYOND even support a method that'd be like, say, holding control + a direction or so? How would it sort if multi hittable things were in a tile?

I'd give it more or less the same rules as projectile targeting, in particular the bit where resting mobs are ignored unless clicked directly, which means that lying down can be used as a dodge in a pinch.

Another benefit of that system i didn't mention is preventing unwanted interaction with other props; i've seen people place their weapons on misclicked tables during combat, or the common case of people clicking themselves, which, while hilarious to look at, shouldn't really happen unless someone is clumsy in-game.

does anyone realize how broken adrenals are right now. anyone???? a single baton will kill a traitor or an operative or a ling without issue. the baton will win no matter what. it's really really bad. the one hard counter to a baton is completely fucked and broken and useless atm and the person who put in the change could only say 'hmm' when I tested it in front of them and showed that they are truly bugged to the point of uselessness now.

also every single assistant is getting a flash now, much moreso than before. the flash hardstun needs to be changed or removed too.

I've not needed adrenals ever by simply following the principle of 'never engage in melee ever unless I can completely disable someone, because it's a bad idea and someone with a baton will fucking kill me in a single blow'. That and never engage on even terms of give an opponent any indication they're about to die until they're already in a position they can't fight back. Fighting like a rogue tends to produce good results.

adrenals being shit is just the fault of some dude who tought adrenals are used to run away instead of removing stun from your body

batons have the pump up as counter which makes them slighty less effective on people with ghetto tier gear ( drank pump up when clicked by baton) and if you know how to move you can easly turn the tables with a push in wall, the problem is when sec people use 2 batons so they wont have to wait for the cooldown the item currently has.

maybe make them more reliant on the battery like 5 hits before turning off as currently you can baton 7-8 people into stamina crit before needing to recharge

I actually noticed the double baton trick and unless you have slips on hand that shit is just cancer. I've not seen anyone using it but I'm definitely fucking putting that to use.

Arathian wrote:Didn't we just do a whole thing about trying to prolong the shift and make death more meaningful and harder to come back from.

And now the official direction goes to "btw seccies should gun down people by default"?

edit: also, didn't you wanna buff sec like...3 months ago? We had a whole big thread about it too.

realtalk though maybe the tide would be easier to deal with for sec if they risked facing actual consequences for a fight instead of mashing ahelp because the officer they sprayed with an extinguisher did actual hit points instead of stuns in response

oranges wrote:I am not joking and people need to stop running from cops

As Chris Rock put it: everybody knows if the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ass-kicking with them.

oranges wrote:I am not joking and people need to stop running from cops

"stop running normie. let the cops shoot you dead."