Sleepers.

[Saegrimr]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Why even bother asking on the forums if you're gonna remove it anyway? Not that they had any use now that this goonchem mess broke them anyway.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7129

[Steelpoint]

Don't forget these changes will effect antags. Don't make it too hard for someone to heal up.

[lumipharon]

A baystyle med system, by which I mean basically anything that requires surgery,or some other specific operations to fix particular, severe levels of damage fixes the problems of medbay and chem entirely.

Right now you have X damage of Y type. You use healing item/chemical Z and it's fixed.

If you had to heal your brute damage from your gun shots then bandage/stich up your bullet holes to stop the bleeding, setting broken bones etc. Then suddenly you have a much more interesting system, that is less click2heal.
Then obvious you can have the ghetto solutions to every problem, in case you are unable to get proper medical assistance. So shit like ripping a sleeve off your jumpsuit to use as a bandage, using wire to stich your wounds like a crazy fucker, or cauterising it altogether with a motherfucking welding tool, at the expense of burns. Break your arm? Splint that shit with a metal rod/plank plus some bandage/ripped jumpsuit/wire to make it usable until you can get it properly fixed. Also peglegs for when dismemberment comes in. Yarr.

I play chemist a lot, our current system, be it tg or goon chem, our current medical system is gay as fuck. Sleepers personify this, they are literally click to heal, and when upgraded can heal pretty much anything, at any level.

[KAP]

My big question is how is this going to affect mining? I seem to remember everyone saying that mining shouldn't need more medkits, because they have sleepers. But if we're doing anything but option C, this needs to be considered.

[Snakebutt]

I've never used a sleeper as miner because it requires two people to operate. The odds of that happening after round start are pretty low, much lower than a return trip with minerals with a stop by medbay.

[Cipher3]

Pretty sure the Goonchem progressive update is gonna modify sleepers and cryo anyways. Doing this now just messes with that. And by pretty sure I mean someone working on it told me.

[paprika]

he didn't change sleepers at all, only the chems they inject, which doesn't address the problem

[Snakebutt]

goonchems are toxic when injected, or only heal in crit. They aren't compatible with goonchem on a basic level.

[paprika]

Yeah it's really shitty and made sleepers even worse lol

[Balut]

Frankly, instead of just brainstorming ideas, I think everyone should decide what exactly it is that they want from sleepers. What role do you think they should play, if any?

I think sleepers ought to be good, fast healing that is stuck in one place, in comparison with cryo's immobile, good and slow healing and a medkit's mobile healing. I think default medkits are too effective and bruise packs and the like should get nerfed down to like half efficacy or something.

Ideally there'd be a Baystyle system of injuries fixed via (relatively quick) surgeries or other involved, non-chemical methods. That's a big project though.

[brainstorming]
Since it seems like rechargeable medkits are the favored idea here, how about making a better healing item in general? Have it activate to swap between a 'heal' mode and a 'diagnose' mode, so you don't have to juggle your analyzer/ID and the appropriate meds.

Also, UI improvements: Though the locational shit is nice in that it makes diagnosis important and is probably more engaging than just 'loltricord', but it's kinda annoying because the readout from health analyzing is kinda hard to read IMO - all the numbers and their locations mix together, and with chat constantly moving it's a bit difficult to get a good look. Also, the icon to swap between places you aim at is kinda finicky - most of the locations are tiny and hard to click on. Can that be fixed somehow? Perhaps a locational-aiming cycle hotkey?
[/brainstorming]

You are right, healing doesn't require any skill, but pretty much any change to medical supplies will not alter that unless we create mandatory field surgery. The main problem with field healing is twofold in my opinion, it isn't interesting and while it is efficient it requires a lot of inventory juggling. That said the situations where you do field heals are generally more exciting than using the sleeper, so encouraging their use would be beneficial.

Rechargable medkits would actually make medbay more critical to control, assuming the chargers are located there and not compatable with gun chargers, because it would mean once medbay is gone healing becomes super limited. If anything supply based medical is what allows you to ignore medbay, as you can just jam 8 medkits into your bag and say goodbye to those white halls for the rest of the round, and screw the entire medical team in the process, and this is the optimal way to be a field medic.

By skills I mostly meant having some process to do - surgery for example, as opposed to the current thing of just applying a tricord pill or some bruisepacks or whatever. Chem, Viro and Genetics all have some process to keep you busy, as opposed to MD, which is usually just recognizing what thing to apply and applying it. If you can do it fast you have some 'skill' to be proud of, whereas if not you've got the wiki open and can learn that shit after using it and stuff.

The inventory juggling is pretty annoying though.

And a fair enough point on item-based healing, I guess.



How about nerfing tricord? If healing gets more difficult that shit will just get used instead. Maybe make it only work if you're asleep? We still have the sleep verb right.

[Snakebutt]

Tricord is obviously a problem, and i'm betting by goof's obsession with it is his biggest complaint. The goonmed idea of chems working in/out of crit is a really nice idea, it's just overused and makes their chems even more situational than they already are.

Why don't we make tricord heal people who are crit, and stop healing at the 5-10 mark? Rather than antitox binding with inaprov, tricord binds to inaprov meaning that your patient has to be stablized by something other than inaprovaline to use it in the first place, making it impossible to just fieldmed it out by medipen/tricord combo. Both together bind to dexalin perhaps, and move tricord down to a t1 chemical. Then DD, same recipe, doesn't bind to inaprov and heals much faster and a bit farther, stopping at 25-50 if enough is used, but no farther.

The Dermal Regenerator, an actual thing from Star Trek, is basically a handheld healing gun for fixing small cuts and bruises. I think it fills our 'regenerating medkit' role perfectly, being an X use rechargable item. Instead of recharging via rechargers (which makes MDs with eguns much more powerful), it recharges over time, perhaps at half the rate captain's/adv-egun charges, so it can't just be spammed. Has a diagnostic, burn and bruise mode, one working as your analyzer, the other curing 10-20 damage to the targeted bodypart per use. 5-10 charges at a time, fails via EMP. Should be easy enough to code, just a 0 range (if that's a thing)energy gun that does negative damage

[dezzmont]

Alternatively a medical themed charager works if we want to limit how much healing a medic can dole out based on distance from medbay, like it currently is. Also lets medics heal someone up right quick if they are in medbay, because they can just click like mad without managing inventory and recharge then and there, making them a top tier choice when in their element.

Here is the thing, I don't reaalllllly mind Paprika removing sleepers as long as Goonchem goes away and medical doctors actually get something awesome to replace it. Especially because there were a rather decent sized amount of people agreeing sleepers were problematic in some ways and that we wanted something better. Taking out cryo and looking to see what obvious gaps in medical form based on how players react is actually a pretty legit move.

If we just get cryotubes in the end, and the idea of some replacement is dropped, shit change of course. That said whatever you want to say about Paprika is that they do hover around things they change.

[Pennwick]

I had a little idea that sleepers would inject an equal amount of sleep toxin into your bloodstream at the same time each time you applied a drug. Maybe cap it at whatever the sleeper's current chem cap is so people don't stack people with a hundred units at a time. This meant while its an effective healing tool it also keeps the paitent out of comission while the healing drugs work. It also incentivizes more careful medical application. Sure you can just mash all the buttons but you'll knock out your paitent for longer than neccisary.

Currently though sleepers are effectively worthless. 20u of Saline Glucose will heal on average 17 brute and burn damage over 50 ticks. Saline Glucose heals LESS burte damage than nutriment. Salbutamol is useful against oxyloss but its not available to critted paitents. nNobody wants Epinephrine in their system. Right now I'd gladly trade the sleepers for a third cryo tank.

So currently we're effectively under option A. Medbay seems to be suffering hard. Though its hard to tell if thats from the sleeper chemicals being so weak rendering the sleepers useless or just Goonchem being rough. I don't think it'd be a good idea to remove them outright until this whole Goonchem transition is resolved.

[Snakebutt]

healing patients at the cost of putting them to sleep is essentially what epinephrine does right now. No one likes it, and it's a massive griff tool. We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

We're dead in the water until goonchem is changed to be less... goon.

[dezzmont]

We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

This actually isn't true because goonchem is so ass that it basically destroyed every other part of medical including sleepers. We will not know how sleepers being removed will actually work out yet, as the change is far ranging enough that pure theorycraft can't actually settle this, no matter how much I love theorycraft.

There is room for experimental changes as long as you are quick to revert or patch depending on what you find, and as long as you don't do something silly like copy paste an incompatable code into our codebase like with

Spoiler:

baymed.

[Pennwick]

healing patients at the cost of putting them to sleep is essentially what epinephrine does right now. No one likes it, and it's a massive griff tool. We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

We're dead in the water until goonchem is changed to be less... goon.

Actually epinephrine is quite diffrent. It only heals between -65 and -25. So only in a narrow range. It also has a depletion rate of .2 so it sticks around twice as long as other drugs. Pairing things with sleep toxin would mean you'd only be narcoleptic as long as you were under the effects of healing chems. However a doctor running his fingers down every button because he doesn't know the right drug would give you way more sleep toxin than you needed. Also if you had mixed brute and burn then you would probably be drowsy twice as long from needing two healing chems. But still not as irritating as epinephrine.

[Balut]

Why don't we make tricord heal people who are crit, and stop healing at the 5-10 mark? Rather than antitox binding with inaprov, tricord binds to inaprov meaning that your patient has to be stablized by something other than inaprovaline to use it in the first place, making it impossible to just fieldmed it out by medipen/tricord combo. Both together bind to dexalin perhaps, and move tricord down to a t1 chemical.

I have nnnnnno idea what this means. I don't think I approve of tricord basically only being to fix crit, because emergency crit MDing is like, the most exciting part of being MD, right. I recall before now that Tricord was hilariously shitty and never used, but now it's too robust? I would instead suggest tricord be used to fix light damage - the sorta thing you give the assistant who got punched by a clown a couple times. That shit's tedious.

Also, I would suggest making the charge-up medkit take time to apply its heals. Currently existing medkits (which would be reduced in effectiveness) could be used for more immediately needed healing that needs diagnosis, or custom-made pills to just eat without diagnostic and targetted heals. That leaves the chargeables as infinite, convenient (no inventory juggling!) and presumably really effective, at the cost of taking some time.



I can't remember how stronk sleep tox is presently, but having to deal with randomly passing out for like the next five or ten minutes would be immensely shitty, don't do that.

[Snakebutt]

5u tricord heals 25 of all types of damage. The whole idea of chemists leaving tricord on the desk is specifically to avoid wasting packs/better chems on assistant who got zapped on a door or victims of le fanny punch clown. I guess the issue is that if people are capable of moving on their own and chemist is bored, they stand there and eat pills until they are topped off, disregarding that most of the time said people only have tickle damage and might well be capable of sleeping it off. Nevermind that the pile of tricord leaves plenty of opportunity for antag chemists to put poison into the pills to randomly fuck people, or antag MDs to get the chemist lynched.

My suggestion was basically to have tricord work as the lazy way out of healing someone from crit, fixing people up until they can walk. Perhaps the opposite might be more sound, making it work if you are above 75 health? Any more and you've had more than a brief run through a breached hall or a single door shocking, and rightfully should get medical attention, but if it's just a bump, take some tylenoltricord and walk it off.

[Alex Crimson]

Tis a nice idea to nerf Tricord, but you run into the same problem we are having now. People would get pissed that the Tricord isnt working, not bother to learn why, then go complain that its broken and needs reverting. Then when you try to explain it, they complain that chems shouldnt have effects or conditions like that.

[AnonymousNow]

Why not make it so that we have Star Trek chemicals that work the way they used to, but considerably weaker?

Make tricord work 1 unit:(1&1&1) health recovered. Make Bicard, Kelotane and Dyoveline work 1:2, and their upgraded versions 1:3 (but capable of being combined with their weaker versions for the benefits of both, as normal). Above all, make them metabolise slowly, so that they're reliable medicines that can be fairly quickly whipped up, but are a bit pathetic on their own - so the (fixed) Goon chemicals would be more complicated, but more potent in various ways. You can heal yourself okay with some basic pills and patches, but you need a medical kit with bruisepacks and ointment, or a doctor with a medical belt full of complicated wonders full of chemistry, to get you back up to speed in ten seconds.

That would solve the invisible problems that some coders have with Star Trek chemistry, if I've read correctly.

[Vigilare]

Why not make it so that we have Star Trek chemicals that work the way they used to, but considerably weaker?

Make tricord work 1 unit:(1&1&1) health recovered. Make Bicard, Kelotane and Dyoveline work 1:2, and their upgraded versions 1:3 (but capable of being combined with their weaker versions for the benefits of both, as normal). Above all, make them metabolise slowly, so that they're reliable medicines that can be fairly quickly whipped up, but are a bit pathetic on their own - so the (fixed) Goon chemicals would be more complicated, but more potent in various ways. You can heal yourself okay with some basic pills and patches, but you need a medical kit with bruisepacks and ointment, or a doctor with a medical belt full of complicated wonders full of chemistry, to get you back up to speed in ten seconds.

That would solve the invisible problems that some coders have with Star Trek chemistry, if I've read correctly.

previously, 5u tricord healed 23:23:23 - making it 5:5:5 makes it 4.6x weaker
bicard + equivalents healed 26 - healing 10 is 2.6x weaker
dermaline was 39, so 15 is also 2.6x weaker

(brute:burn:tox)
tricord = 1:1:1
bicard: 2:0:0
kelotane: 0:2:0
dylovene: 0:0:2
[[bicard-but-better]]: 3:0:0
dermaline: 0:3:0
[[dylovene-but-better]: 0:0:3
doctor's delight: 5:5:5 (honk, 20u DD pills)
(do we even have a better version of bicard and dylovene in tgchem? if not, we need 'em)

tricord seems nerfed a bit too much compared to the rest - maybe make it heal 1.5 per unit? or are decimals awful ideas for healing

[AnonymousNow]

(You get the point)

previously, 5u tricord healed 23:23:23 - making it 5:5:5 makes it 4.6x weaker
bicard + equivalents healed 26 - healing 10 is 2.6x weaker
dermaline was 39, so 15 is also 2.6x weaker

(brute:burn:tox)
tricord = 1:1:1
bicard: 2:0:0
kelotane: 0:2:0
dylovene: 0:0:2
[[bicard-but-better]]: 3:0:0
dermaline: 0:3:0
[[dylovene-but-better]: 0:0:3
doctor's delight: 5:5:5 (honk, 20u DD pills)
(do we even have a better version of bicard and dylovene in tgchem? if not, we need 'em)

tricord seems nerfed a bit too much compared to the rest - maybe make it heal 1.5 per unit? or are decimals awful ideas for healing

We're on the right track, I think.

[Vigilare]

- bring tgchem staples back (bicard, kelotane, dylovene, dexalin, dermaline, tricord, DD)
- maybe bring dexplus/inaprov back too?
- healing ratios as above
- lower the speed of healing

dexalin I think healed the same as bicard/kelotane/dylovene before, but for oxyloss
and dex-plus was 100% oxyloss healing, bye bye lexorin

[Snakebutt]

(do we even have a better version of bicard and dylovene in tgchem? if not, we need 'em)

Milk is a lesser version of bicard. Toxin is ONLY cured by antitox and tricord, it's naturally a more troublesome damage type.

[Cipher3]

Frankly, instead of just brainstorming ideas, I think everyone should decide what exactly it is that they want from sleepers. What role do you think they should play, if any?

I think sleepers ought to be good, fast healing that is stuck in one place, in comparison with cryo's immobile, good and slow healing

sleepers ought to be good, fast healing that is stuck in one place

cryo's immobile, good and slow healing

And what about that setup makes cryo worth existing?

[Snakebutt]

Lizards also have unclean blood unsuited for humans.

Not from a mechanical standpoint, just as a social taboo.

[Balut]

sleepers ought to be good, fast healing that is stuck in one place

cryo's immobile, good and slow healing

And what about that setup makes cryo worth existing?

They fix crit, sleepers don't. I sorta assumed this was inherent in the discussion of the two.


Blood transfusions are a good idea, especially cuz' they're different than just the surgeries that've been suggested. Also presumably at some point someone will get infused with ketchup, and it will be great.

Tis a nice idea to nerf Tricord, but you run into the same problem we are having now. People would get pissed that the Tricord isnt working, not bother to learn why, then go complain that its broken and needs reverting. Then when you try to explain it, they complain that chems shouldnt have effects or conditions like that.

Players bitching about nerfs isn't exactly an unexpected phenomenon. It IS a problem that such a change would go buried in a changelog or something, though - probably a good idea to make a bigger deal about announcing it. Bold it, put it at the top of the changelog, yell about it in OOC, whatever.

This is happening? I haven't gotten to play in awhile, so uh, I haven't noticed. That said, tricord heals fucking everything, in large amounts, and is easy as fuck to produce. It's not like the game is balanced around being in danger from multiple kinds of damage constantly or anything, so Tricord's pretty fukken broken and deserving of nerfs.

Like even looking at Vigilare's little comparison thing a couple posts above me, 23 is not significantly less than 26, especially when combined with the benefits of being an drug (and thus not being limited by or caring about application location) and not having to deal with diagnosing what kinda damage needs to be healed and juggling inventory for the proper medkit containing the proper meds. TL;DR shit's fuckin' OP.