Goon Chem Feedback

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:26 pm #59992

Bottom post of the previous page:

Alex Crimson wrote:Isnt it the new tricord? Shouldnt we be able to make it in Chemistry?

You're not supposed to be able to easily make Omnizine.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:16 pm #60000

I don't think there is a way for me to fully articulate how much I haaaaaaaate this change and the removal of our standard chemicals over the internet, so I'm not going to try. All I will say to that end is that it is, personally, my most despised change in the history of SS13, to the degree that I believe that it could be a prank, as if somebody snuck a bug in under the title of a feature, and considering the lethality of the new toxins against the benefits of the new medicines, a shameless medbay nerf.

And to think I was all for adding Goonchem until people thought it would be fun to remove /tg/ Chemistry 4noraisins.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:19 pm #60003

Much of the old chemistry is still in. From what ive noticed, any chemicals that have been removed have been replaced with goonchem alternatives. Along with many goonchem originals like Strange Reagent and poisons(which can be countered with some goonchem stuff).

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:10 pm #60024

New chemistry is one thing, but new medicine that heals for shit in reasonable amount of time, and includes stupid autistic effects like blacking out every 20 seconds for 10 minutes without any cure, making security job unplayable for extended period of time, is totally different thing.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:19 pm #60026

Apparently Epinephrine was added but there was no addition to the wiki about it. It was also somehow added to the sleepers so now MDs that don't bother to check what they're putting in people and just mash buttons like retards have the whole station constantly fainting.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:26 pm #60028

I say the system will work once we smooth it out and make tweaks to some of the values. Also, the wiki absolutely need to be kept up to date on any major chemicals. I know gooncode prides itself on MUH SEKRIT STUFF and thats ok, but during a major transition like this we have to keep people informed of all their options.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:34 pm #60040

Can't we just get some of our stalwarts back, at least? Tricord, bicard, derma, dex? What's wrong with the idea of using Star Trek-themed chemicals?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:39 pm #60041

id rather we just have both systems and give each chemical a legitimate unique use instead of just being inferior

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:53 pm #60046

miggles wrote:id rather we just have both systems and give each chemical a legitimate unique use instead of just being inferior

This. Trim the janky chemicals that are niche to uselessness, keep the ones with some utility. Old chems heal over time, goonchem heal instantly, but require a lot more. Swapping us wholesale to a new system over the course of a week is going to alienate a lot of players.

Thought that just came to me: Diphenhydramine medipens, available from the nanomed as an emergency anti-histamine. It's a thing for anyone with allergies, you'd think they'd be lying around somewhere.

Looking over the newer chems, I really don't even see the point in playing chemist. Every chemical is situational to a fault, requiring exact knowledge of the patient's health level and quick treatment because our most effective medicines only work in crit, which means they have to be used quick to get the benifit without the patient dying. Omnizine is a bitch to get/separate, and is only half as effective as DD, but makes the botanist the most effective source of health on the station. Considering medkits havent' been changed, I see no reason not to just say fuck all the chems and just rely solely on kits.

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:26 am #60104

Goon chem is fucking horrible. PLEASE REVERT BACK TO TG CHEMS AND REMOVE ALL THE SHITTY GOON CHEMS THAT DONT DO SHIT.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:24 am #60108

see the addition of goonchem was 'eh', I wouldn't use it myself ('cause tgchem is more balanced in every way) but it has its uses

but the removal of tgchem?? what

like we can't even make DD any more what is this

at least give us tgchem back, that'd be cool (yay cryomix)

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:06 am #60114

You can still make Cryo/Clonexadone. Its just Salbutamol instead of Dexalin. You can get Salbutamol from Oxygen Medkits if you are too lazy to make it yourself. Doctors Delight requires Omnizine, which comes from the mutated ambrosia plant.

Honestly i think Goonchem is great. The new patch sprite looks awesome. Although i would like to see some new chems added that gradually heal rather than instant like most of Goonchem stuff. Also Medkits need some serious love, right now they are filled with 1-use patches. Can you not put bruise packs/ointment back in them? I see no harm in just allowing medkits to have those.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:13 am #60116

AnonymousNow wrote:Can't we just get some of our stalwarts back, at least? Tricord, bicard, derma, dex? What's wrong with the idea of using Star Trek-themed chemicals?

miggles wrote:id rather we just have both systems and give each chemical a legitimate unique use instead of just being inferior

AnonymousNow wrote:And to think I was all for adding Goonchem until people thought it would be fun to remove /tg/ Chemistry 4noraisins.

Basically sums up how I feel about these changes. Goonchem is cool I guess but murdering /tg/ chemistry was just a punch to the gut that I can't find the reasoning behind.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:14 am #60117

cus goofball thinks everything from goon is better without factoring in the differences in playstyle or general game feel

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:17 am #60119

This was a change that should have been tested for days and days and rebalanced on a private server before even seeing the light of day on tg.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:03 am #60129

You would LIKE TO THINK that with this much negative feedback in the form of "We don't like this, please just revert it, if we wanted goon we would play on goon", that this shit would have been reverted or otherwise pushed to the side.

Anyways there are a fuckton of issues with the system
- Medipens make you fall down 24/7 and the reagent they dispense takes forever to be metabolized fully
- Toxins are still annoying as fuck, even Biohazard Medical Kits only contain Charcoal pills and syringes which take forever (If they even work at all? Can't honestly tell)
- Future planned changes make MDs even more marginalized and basically everyone and everything is FUCKED if there are not people in Chemistry

If I wanted Goon, I would play on Goon. Every heal being an HoT is absolute garbage and honestly I'm shocked that this has gone on for as long as it has.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 am #60133

overdoses on normal medicine seem to be a thing? someone gave me some healing chems and i kept falling down for like 5 minutes
that shouldnt be a thing
/tg/'s playstyle is not adapted to giving people specific doses or whatever, it's literally just "shove them full of heals and call it a day" which is honestly fine with me since its already kinda time consuming to make them
tgchem should NEVER have been removed, especially not like 2 days after goonchem was first added. that's just insane, nobody can keep up that fast, this is a humongous change to the game.

Alex Crimson · Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Epinephrine is for stopping people dying in crit. It stops Oxygen damage and heals 1 brute/tox/burn damage if the player is below -10% health. No idea why it makes people fall over or degrades so slowly(is metabolizes at 0.2, most chems are 0.4).

Charcoal heals 1.5 tox damage per tick. That isnt much. However it also makes other chems degrade 0.5 more per tick, which causes poisons to rapidly decay in your system compared to the charcoal which degrades at 0.4. For the record, Charcoal is not enough to counteract the damage done by Plasma per tick, however each Charcoal pill in a Tox Medkit contains 50 units of Charcoal, so one pill is more than enough to counter 15 units of plasma by forcing it to degrade extremely fast whilst countering a small amount of the toxin damage. It isnt meant to be the best toxin cure, thats Pentetic Acid.

How are Medicals getting fucked exactly? The removal of sleepers? The terrible Medkits with single-use patches? Hopefully the latter is fixed and Medkits get their Bruise pakcs/Ointment back.

@Miggles. Healing chems should be fine unless you ingest them through a pill. They are meant to be used in patches. Much of the old chem system is still in place. The only recipes that have been removed now have goonchem alternates that work just fine.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:57 pm #60145

Cecily wrote:You would LIKE TO THINK that with this much negative feedback in the form of "We don't like this, please just revert it, if we wanted goon we would play on goon", that this shit would have been reverted or otherwise pushed to the side.

Anyways there are a fuckton of issues with the system
- Medipens make you fall down 24/7 and the reagent they dispense takes forever to be metabolized fully
- Toxins are still annoying as fuck, even Biohazard Medical Kits only contain Charcoal pills and syringes which take forever (If they even work at all? Can't honestly tell)
- Future planned changes make MDs even more marginalized and basically everyone and everything is FUCKED if there are not people in Chemistry

If I wanted Goon, I would play on Goon. Every heal being an HoT is absolute garbage and honestly I'm shocked that this has gone on for as long as it has.

Coders don't care they think its good for us. There are some cool chems in Goon we should of just borrowed those rather than turning into goon. We do not have goonmed so this system does not fucking work for /tg/ station

WHY WOULD THEY PUSH IT TO SERVERS SO FUCKING SWIFTLY? They want to turn /tg/ into Bay with muh realism.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:07 pm #60146

I agree it was too soon the remove the old chems before we had a chance to get used to the new ones. But the new chems mostly work fines. Most of the complains ive seen are just straight up whiny players who dont want change, or people making mistakes as to the intended use of certain chemicals.

This is the transition to goonchem. There are bugs to fix and chemicals to balance. As well as some features not even added yet like addiction. If you want to improve the situation, go test out the goonchem stuff and give actual feedback.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:28 pm #60148

You liked the neat Star Trek references? Well fuck you, have sailicnoglucosephosphatecharcoal. You were content with Medicine being means to an end, rather than end in itself? Well screw you buddy, have healing at RANDOM INTERVALS and HEALING doing DAMAGE at RANDOM.

Instead adding new fun features, you are piling up unnecessary complexity upon existing systems. I bet kitchen will be the next victim.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:58 pm #60153

Lumbermancer wrote:You liked the neat Star Trek references? Well fuck you, have sailicnoglucosephosphatecharcoal. You were content with Medicine being means to an end, rather than end in itself? Well screw you buddy, have healing at RANDOM INTERVALS and HEALING doing DAMAGE at RANDOM.

Instead adding new fun features, you are piling up unnecessary complexity upon existing systems. I bet kitchen will be the next victim.

It already is, if the rotting food PR wasn't a joke.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:10 pm #60155

DemonFiren wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:You liked the neat Star Trek references? Well fuck you, have sailicnoglucosephosphatecharcoal. You were content with Medicine being means to an end, rather than end in itself? Well screw you buddy, have healing at RANDOM INTERVALS and HEALING doing DAMAGE at RANDOM.

Instead adding new fun features, you are piling up unnecessary complexity upon existing systems. I bet kitchen will be the next victim.
It already is, if the rotting food PR wasn't a joke.

WHY WOULD THEY MAKE FOOD ROT?

jesus christ coders stop making the game so fucking realistic you pieces of shit also the game only lasts 1-2 hours how does food rot that fast?

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:23 pm #60165

same reason its possible to create a spit roast inside a microwave in a couple of seconds.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:45 pm #60173

Alex Crimson wrote: Healing chems should be fine unless you ingest them through a pill.

I don't know how much exposure you have to earth medicine, but 90% of it involves pills and injections, not magical treated bandaids. The remaining 10% is medical procedures we couldn't hope to implement.

The idea of this being done for 'realism' is laughable, because the bulk of real medicine is pills and syringes.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:06 pm #60180

aaaand being completely healed from a 50unit pill of tricord was better how? I mean obviously goonchem isnt 100% realistic, but it isnt trying to be. Its not possible to have an accurate medical system in SS13. Goonchem is just an improvement over the old chem system in terms of options and variety, imo.

I cannot speak for everyone, but i prefer this system with its drugs that have side effects over the old system that was tricord for everything and maybe some cryomix or anti-tox. Then polyacid grenades on the escape shuttle.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:25 pm #60183

Double post

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:26 pm #60184

Goonchem doesn't really increase variaty in chemical options, there are still first order optimal sollutions. They are just now a million times more painful to use.

The ideal of a health system, at least in my mind, is damage being significant and somethign you need to seek out healing for, but also one that doesn't form a huge barrier of re-entry back into the game once you get healed.

The random knockouts for instance that last forever are shitty because it makes getting healed a bigger deal that being damaged, and even for some of the more mild ones it still makes re-entering gameplay proper longer which is problematic.

Having more chemicals with waaaacky side effects doesn't make the game better or deeper. Having simple healing mechanics doesn't make the game worse or more shallow.

Ask yourself not what things that goonchem adds, but what those things actually add to the game. The answer is "not a lot."

Most of the goon replacement chemicals are gimmicky versions of the ones we got that slow down remediation back to the station after injury or posions we decided to remove or gate behind mining a long time ago. There are some unique functions in goon chemistry we should keep, but it is a bit asinine to do an entire switch to goonchem rather than just porting the stuff that works in our entirely different codebase that doesn't even track damage the same way.

Especially when it clearly wasn't tested well or even looked over twice. This is like a first draft, have some pride, there is no excuse for how poorly this was intergrated.

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:37 pm #60185

MMMiracles wrote:same reason its possible to create a spit roast inside a microwave in a couple of seconds.

M-MUH REALISM

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:42 pm #60186

Yeah you're right, lets revert back to Chemists only ever needing to make Tricord. I fail to see how that was a better system than anything goonchem tries to do, even if it has balancing and bug issues to be worked out. If you feel like the healing numbers are not right, then give feedback to improve them.

I havent seen any chemicals with random knockouts, which ones are you talking about exactly? The stuff in medipens? Pretty sure that is a bug and not meant to happen.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:49 pm #60189

Alex Crimson wrote:Yeah you're right, lets revert back to Chemists only ever needing to make Tricord. I fail to see how that was a better system than anything goonchem tries to do, even if it has balancing and bug issues to be worked out. If you feel like the healing numbers are not right, then give feedback to improve them.

I havent seen any chemicals with random knockouts, which ones are you talking about exactly? The stuff in medipens? Pretty sure that is a bug and not meant to happen.

If you feel a generic medicine that can heal to full in a single application is too strong and undermines the entire chemistry system, why don't we remove tricord, or make it a heal over time much like many goonmeds are?

Diphenhydramine, Atropine, and Morphine all cause knockouts. Morphine is especially annoying because the chemical it replaces is important for miners.

Furthermore most beneficial healing medicine has some sort of drawback or other gimmick such as random chances to heal for no real reason, or worse deals damage, which have no point in existing because they are less effective at healing quickly than basic packs.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:50 pm #60190

Alex Crimson wrote:Yeah you're right, lets revert back to Chemists only ever needing to make Tricord. I fail to see how that was a better system than anything goonchem tries to do, even if it has balancing and bug issues to be worked out. If you feel like the healing numbers are not right, then give feedback to improve them.

I havent seen any chemicals with random knockouts, which ones are you talking about exactly? The stuff in medipens? Pretty sure that is a bug and not meant to happen.

THE PROBLEM IS THE SYSTEM DOESNT WORK RIGHT NOW.

Healing is too fucking hard to do as of right now. We rely on 2 chemists for ALL OF OUR HEALING NOW. Healing that requires massive amount of work for our short fucking rounds and remembering long and complex recipes that also require chems to be heated.

Instead of 50u tricord we need 50u of Stryptic to fucking heal brute damage OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. We are used to massive amounts of combat and we are not similar to goonmeds system which allows people to suffer on for much longer

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:56 pm #60191

I danced around that but yeah.

The system as is, is broken. It doesn't work the way we should want it to work.

That means we can either leave it in and hope that we can fix it live, which is a bad plan because this is a massive change based on code that diverged from us years ago to the point we don't even handle core game concepts that we take for granted the same, or we can remove it and re-work it to make more sense.

It is downright embarassing for example that early on during this change there were multiple chemicals that were impossible to make. And I am not talking about stuff like people not knowing how to mix oil. The fact that every chem was just ported over without re-working how they were made was dumb too.

Why silver? That just raises so many questions about liquid vs metalic silver that we don't need, and if anyone actually gave a damn about making this a good change they could have effortlessly renamed the chemical involved. It reeks of an utter lack in professional pride and makes it really obvious the person who made this change really didn't put a lot of effort into it. Stuff like not tweaking the numbers at all, just picking up the chemicals as is and dropping them into the system without any regard for major, critical code differences between the base.

If grafting new code from a different base onto ours is a delicate operation, this was added like the surgeon from Surgeon Simulator. "Just break everything open and jam the heart in there, all done!"

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:03 pm #60192

IMHO, this is moving way to fast in a very poor direction. Were it up to me, I'd introduce 5 new chemicals at a time (like we have been doing, this is very reasonable), then take feedback on them, tweak them a little and introduce the tweaks along with new chems once a week. After some feedback, pull the inferior duplicate chems entirely in favor of the chemical with more flavor/utility, for example, perflouro is basically dexplus but less retarded than 1u curing all oxyloss, at the cost of being unable to speak. Others are just broken shit that needs to be removed, like ephedrine, which is functionally hyperzine, synaptazine and inaprovaline all in one. Load up 100u, go annoy the shit out of sec! Meanwhile without synap, we lack a way to reduce the effect of mindbreaker or hallucination sting, because no one fucking thought this shit through. We have chemical reactions with 0 purpose or effect, cluttering up code and possibly creating errors without any actual benifit. See: Carpet. Inject blood into spessdrugs, get liquid carpet. Liquid carpet is 100% useless, it has no attached effect.

But hey, we have strange reagent now, which as good as the defib, as long as it doesn't gib the person! Such useful, flavorful, realistic chemicals, right?

BTW, as a miner, ask for as much ephedrine as the chemist can make, it's basically godmode. Morphine is just GOESFAST and eventually sleep, ephedrine is GOESFAST, reduce stun/knockdown/paralysis and inaprov.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:05 pm #60193

Oh i agree. This should not have happened so fast, but it did. Rather than complain about the realisms or how "good" the old system was, i think its better to provide feedback.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:13 pm #60195

Snakebutt wrote:IMHO, this is moving way to fast in a very poor direction. Were it up to me, I'd introduce 5 new chemicals at a time (like we have been doing, this is very reasonable), then take feedback on them, tweak them a little and introduce the tweaks along with new chems once a week. After some feedback, pull the inferior duplicate chems entirely in favor of the chemical with more flavor/utility, for example, perflouro is basically dexplus but less retarded than 1u curing all oxyloss, at the cost of being unable to speak.

This would be an absurdly good way to handle large scale changes, and is in fact how most real scale projects work. You change as little as possible at a time while maintaining the complete context of the change.

For example, the "by the book" way to change out chems would be to first remove tricord, as it is the most problematic chemical when rebalancing chemistry. If chemistry was still able to function you would tweak other chemicals, raising up their healing rate or maybe giving them minor "rainbow" heals for example, or re-introducing tricord as a chemical that heals very slowly over time. From there you can guess what new changes will do, for example if tricord being removed showed that other chemicals were too weak, any new chemical you add should account for that extra needed strength.

After that change stabilized and you managed to collect feedback, or better yet real data like Errorage used to like death rates from specific damage types, you could do something like remove the burn healing chemicals and introduce the new ones. Evaluate, get context, and using that information change all the other three at once, because now you have seen and poked enough at the chemical changes and seen what each change does enough to get an understanding of the entire system and the ramifications of it being changed. Then you tweak those, and as you tweak toxin healing damage add in some new toxins. Maybe start changing out some utility meds, ect. In short, you do things in a measured way.

Right now someone just tore out goonchem and shoved it into /tg/chem, didn't change a thing, just shoved it right up in there without touching numbers, names, or recepies. Added a whole lot of redundant ingredients like stabilized plasma, welder fuel, and silver rather than adding new ingredients as needed to keep the base ingredient pool diverse and unique. Didn't tweak the toxins to hurt you at a rate that is realistic for /tg/spessmen rather than goonspess men or account for how a lot of things goonchem has were deliberately removed from /tg/chem as a balance choice.

It just reeks of lazy design, it is exactly what happened when we ported

Spoiler:

While this hasn't crashed the server this time, it still is unbearably and inexcusably lazy coding. I hesitate to even call it a rebalance because that implies any ammount of effort went into designing the change.

Alex Crimson wrote:Oh i agree. This should not have happened so fast, but it did. Rather than complain about the realisms or how "good" the old system was, i think its better to provide feedback.

"It sucks, here is why, there are a lot of problems you didn't catch that had no excuse for existing in the first place, don't attempt to fix this live, revert and take more measured and professional grade action" is fvalid eedback. It is why your teachers in highschool and college mark up your papers pointing out things you did wrong and talking to you about how you avoid problems like that again. Criticising the process is just as important as criticising the outcome when the process was so poorly executed to be inexcusably awful. There is so much that we can point to to see how little thought was really put into the change, even if the people behind it didn't mean to be lazy. Heck, if they didn't mean to be lazy, which I don't think they were, that makes this feedback more vital because it closes a gap in their knowledge base.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:33 pm #60197

k'now i really do want to love the newchem, i really do, but when shit like ephedrine causes random KO on people that aren't in/near critical is the most fucking annoying thing in existence. I'd get it if it was like overdosing on it but when 5u is enough to cause blackouts then holy shit please stop.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:17 pm #60201

I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback in this thread - a combination of "I miss our old medicines", "Toxins are waaay too powerful" and "Everything is broken", and a lot of it. I think it's pretty clear where the community's heart is.

Props to Dezzmont for being rational. I can't do it myself, since whenever I think about this addition to any degree my braincells start burning and fusing together from anger.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:21 pm #60202

It's dead obvious no work went into this port when my first reaction to the new toxins was, and I quote,

HOLY FUCK THESE VALUES

One look at new toxins told me everything I needed to know, because every last toxin has damage rates at least double our existing poisons, if not fucking exponentially more powerful.

The closest we've had to any form of balance is a single claim that histamine metabolizes slower, which I couldn't find a PR for.

New chems are nice, I was all for breaking this down and coming up with new drug combinations and toxin mixes with everything we got. Instead, we got hamfisted porting with very little actual feedback coming from goofball. Hell, watching this thread, you could visibly see the mood going south when /tg/chem was removed 4noraisin

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:23 pm #60203

AnonymousNow wrote:I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback in this thread - a combination of "I miss our old medicines", "Toxins are waaay too powerful" and "Everything is broken", and a lot of it. I think it's pretty clear where the community's heart is.

Props to Dezzmont for being rational. I can't do it myself, since whenever I think about this addition to any degree my braincells start burning and fusing together from anger.

All massive exaggerations. Toxins can easily be cured with 10 units of Pentetic Acid. Everything is not broken. Some chemicals do not work as intended, or are not balanced, pretty much what you should expect from a 2 day old PR that changed a lot of the chemistry system.

Fucking seriously. Go on a private server inject yourself with 30 units of Venom and then 10 units of Pentetic Acid.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:56 pm #60204

Alex Crimson wrote:Fucking seriously. Go on a private server inject yourself with 30 units of Venom and then 10 units of Pentetic Acid.

Except that's not how it's going to work in actual play. You're going to get knocked down in arrivals, injected with 15-30u of venom, then die in front of tool storage because you got critted in 15 seconds and die in another 15. You aren't going to live through any toxin long enough to make it to medical, let alone get treated.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:04 pm #60206

dezzmont wrote:
Especially when it clearly wasn't tested well or even looked over twice. This is like a first draft, have some pride, there is no excuse for how poorly this was intergrated.

I was in the IRC when it was being looked over, I'm pretty certain that only one maintainer looked it over, one time, before merging. Could be wrong.

It would have been a pain, but a change this massive and carrying this much impact on gameplay should have been scrutinized for a looooooooong time.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:16 pm #60207

Snakebutt wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:Fucking seriously. Go on a private server inject yourself with 30 units of Venom and then 10 units of Pentetic Acid.
Except that's not how it's going to work in actual play. You're going to get knocked down in arrivals, injected with 15-30u of venom, then die in front of tool storage because you got critted in 15 seconds and die in another 15. You aren't going to live through any toxin long enough to make it to medical, let alone get treated.

You do live long enough. I shot myself up with 30 units of Venom and made it from Arrivals to escape at full speed. Only started to slow down from damage once i ran back to Medbay. So long as Chemists do their job and make any kind of Brute damage cure and Anti-tox, you will be fine. Hell, if they have Pentetic Acid then you will 100% be fine. The only time you wouldnt make it to Medbay is if the traitor knocked you down, but at that point he could just kills you in a few hits with an Esword.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:27 pm #60209

Alex Crimson wrote:
Fucking seriously. Go on a private server inject yourself with 30 units of Venom and then 10 units of Pentetic Acid.

That sentence just demonstrated why I hate the venom.

Let me flip the script. You should instead go on a private server, inject yourself with 30 units of venom, and then see if you can make it to a nearby medkit. If you can't, you need to either decide if you want venoms to be one hit kills (Which the code team and playerbase mutually decided "no" on a long time ago because it means the chemist as a non-traitor often had more kill potential than a lone nuke op) or how you are going to make it so that venom can't instantly drop someone in 10 seconds.

I will say this again because people don't get it. I will even bold it, because I love you guys and I think this is an important bit of information:

Just because you can counter something you yourself can do does not make it fair. Counterplay is about what OTHER people can do to stop what you did. If chemists only have counterplay in the form of other chemists there is in fact no counter play.

This is design 101. Nothing ever ever ever should be its own counter, because it means there is no real counter. Mirror matches always will be stalemates, 50/50's, first strike issues, or some other completely even arrangement, meaning if the only thing that can beat something is itself it means nothing can actually beat it.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:31 pm #60211

dezzmont wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:
Fucking seriously. Go on a private server inject yourself with 30 units of Venom and then 10 units of Pentetic Acid.
That sentence just demonstrated why I hate the venom.

Let me flip the script. You should instead go on a private server, inject yourself with 30 units of venom, and then see if you can make it to a nearby medkit. If you can't, you need to either decide if you want venoms to be one hit kills (Which the code team and playerbase mutually decided "no" on a long time ago because it means the chemist as a non-traitor often had more kill potential than a lone nuke op) or how you are going to make it so that venom can't instantly drop someone in 10 seconds.

I did that. As i said, i made it across the station then back to Medbay. Hell i even got to the medical storage. So long as Chemists have stuff for you to heal yourself, you will be fine. If not, then you will probably die, but its an exclusive traitor poison so i think thats ok. Goofball already said he was going to increase the cost of the poison kit.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:02 pm #60215

And did you use the acutal bottle of histamine? How about a bottle of crank, or krokodil? Polonium? Venom is certainly the most popular poison, but just about everything we were given is lethal as fuck. Hell, enough of the actual medicines are dangerous enough to allow an antag MD to mistreat someone and kill their target with a little creative application.

For that matter, all the current healing chemicals are so complex in their application that I doubt it's safe to freely mix them together. While this may be more realistic, this makes actual healing needlessly complex and difficult. Constantly having to check the wiki to see if what I'm using has to be a patch or pill, causes tox above or below crit, is even labeled right because half the entries are outright wrong...

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:29 pm #60221

Went ahead and did the same test, swallowing a 30 unit pill of poison at the Arrival shuttle then running from Arrivals to Escape, then to Medbay. Did this with every poison in the traitor poison kit, except Neurotoxin because it sucks as far as i know.

Venom - I got all the way to Medbay and only just started walking from damage buildup once i hit Chemistry. This put me into crit the fastest. for the record, Venom kills so fast by doing damage AND decaying into histamine, which then does even more damage. So its hands down better than Histamine and Formaldehyde(which does the same thing).

Histamine - Got to Medbay just fine, with some yellow damage. Did a fair bit of damage. However mostly Brute damage so if the Chemist has any brute cures you should be fine. There is even a chemical specifically to cure Histamine buildup.

Polonium - Once again, made it to Medbay just fine. Its just pure radiation buildup that eventually causes vomiting, collapsing and tox damage. Very deadly if you do not get radiation treatment.

Formaldehyde - Ran all the way to Medbay with minor damage. This is a weaker version of Venom. Although it replies on random chance as to how much Histamine is generated, if you are unlucky it could hurt you a lot.

Cyanide - As i sit here typing this i am still waiting for it to kill me. Its really damn slow. I can hear my character vomiting, so i imagine its getting close...

All of the above can be cured with 10 units of Pentetic Acid with the exception of Polonium, i believe.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:57 pm #60232

I didn't ask you to run to chemistry. I asked you to run to a medkit. You have to save yourself with a medkit. You can't beg the chemist to save you in this scenario.

Furthermore, try a patch and more importantly try an injection, the most likely way these will be applied and which last I checked have different, faster properties.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:14 pm #60239

Thought you guys should know. The reason you're getting random KOs from using the sleepers is 1) Somebody put the wrong chems in them last patch (note the two entries for saline solution) and 2) Epinephrine is not Ephedrine. One is a sleeping agent the other is a stabilizer. Guess which one is in the sleepers.

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:30 pm #60246

Wait Epinephrine is a healing chem? I figured it was just a anti nuke op/deathsquad emergency weapon. Rush up and stick one with your issued medipen and it'll instantly bypass their hardsuit or armor and constantly knock them out for 50 ticks giving the other assistants a chance to scrable toward them and grab their weapon.

Jokes aside I've been struggling to keep medbay afloat both as a CMOs, Chemists, and med doctors for a few rounds now while at the same time digging a little through the code.

The Good:
-Calomel and other purging chems work. Its actually pretty effective at handling a poisoning now. Calomel itself can't put a paitent in crit so its a good thing to slap on when people come in with lethal levels of chems.
-The life reaction might be fun if you can both get the CMO to give up some Omnizine from the hypospray and get the chaplain to bless a beaker of water for you.

Epinephrine:
Did you test this? At all? I mean if this is a joke it was only funny for the first shift. Yes it stops you from suffocating while in crit and it heals you if you're at that narrow ranige of -65 to -10 but why would you ever use it when it has that side effect of knocking you out at random, a 33% chance each tick. As its working now those Epinephrine medipens that everyone has are more a griff tool than anything. One tiny prick and the recipieant can hardly function for 50 ticks. I have letimately loaked up syringe guns with the stuff to use as a nonlethal weapon.

Sleepers:
And to think I was considering raising a fuss about them getting removed. As they are they practically do more harm than good. What would you like today? We've got saline, epinephrine and saline, saline salbutamol epinephrine and saline, saline saline saline saline baked beans and saline, and saline and sleep toxin. Whats that? Baked beans are off.
Salbutamol is the only useful drug on the list and it can't be injected when the paitent is in crit and needs it. For some reason thats reserved for Epinephrine so anyone that gets rushed to a sleeper likely gets a double dose of that and are stumbling around with 20u of that until it metabolises over the next hundred ticks.
So that leaves us with Saline for the injured. 20u will heal less than 20 if their damage is just brute or just burn. Welcome to Medbay, enjoy your stay.

Medibots:
Thought these guys might have Omnizine in them? Think again. They also have saline. So that injection of 15u will heal you less than 15. They do have Salbutamol in them but thats only for oxy damage. Little guys do have charcoal in them though so they're actually pretty adept at handling a poisoning assuming they attemt to treat your toxic damage and not some other damage type you probably have.

Cryo:
Cryogenics got away relitively unmolested. Clonex its as easy as adding soidum and sulfur to the Cryox you start with to get the clonex. If you run out of Cryox though thats more tricky. You either need a medic to bring you out a salbutamol pill or: Make oil to make Phenol to make Salicylic Acid to make Salbutamol to make cryox. Mannitol is actually easier than Alkysine was. Mutadone isn't too bad, just mix up some acetone and mutagen and add Bromine.
To be honest with the state sleepers are in and how limited the patches are in supply I tend to use cryo to cary medbay. At least for moderately injured paitents.

Charcoal:
I guess its the new go-to for anti toxin application. Now that heaters work properly its not nearly as time consuming to make. Beakers staying hot even when empty seems to be an issue still but I won't complain too much. For some reason all the charcoal bottles that spawn on station are filled with saline-glucose instead of charcoal.

Styptic, Silver Sulfadiazine and Synthflesh:
They seem to heal pretty well but you need large doses. You can trust a 40u patch to heal a bit more than 50 damage so a person crited will need at least two. As a chemist its very time consuming and dull. Each large beaker batch makes 2 patches and you either need to put each individually in the smartfridge or label a bottle and cram in 6 or 7. It gets old fast.

Starting medkits:
Wow. Just wow. I'm pretty sure these are 25u patches. 3 brute 3 burn. This lasts you about one brute damage paitent and 2/3rds a burn damage paitent. Gives you an extra dose of Epinephrine to fuck people over with.

Atropine:
Seems like it might be useful if it didn't stop working when the paitent reached -25 health and didn't leave them with a bunch of residual toxic damage. Haven't really experimented with it yet. It might be useful but it requires mixing 3 intermediate chems in its recipe.

Strange Reagent:
Havent managed to get both holy water and the CMO's Hypospray in the same shift yet but really I have to question how much it'd help. It gibs if the victim took more than 80 brute or burn damage. So thats pretty much everyone that comes in. If they only took 80 damage they wouldn't be dead. Only reason it'd be useful is someone who died of suffocation or tox damage. As a CMO though I'd be scared to put it in the smartfridge. Chances of someone slapping a patch on a blugeoned cadaver and gibbing them is too high.

Working with another compitent chemist:
Things can actually go okay in this situation. Share some of the intermediate chems between the two of you and you can probably keep up with the demand. Maybe if its a slower shift you'll have time to make some of those fun new drugs.

Working on your own as a chemist:
Doesn't mater if you're truly alone or if your coworker is just useless its going to be a rough shift. Gotta get that Cryo mix up then start churning out patches and charcoal. Aside from a few extra medkits which have next to no healing chemicals in them you're the sole supplier of healing drugs on the station.

Working in Medbay with no chemists:
Welcome to your own little hell. You have enough supplies to heal about 150 points of damage in your medkit. The only thing in the sleepers is Saline. Only got Cryox in the tubes. Everyone will have Epinephrine in their system and will blame you. Probably because med doctors 2 and 3 didn't know what drug to use in the useless sleepers. Expect rioting and smashed windows.

Overall:
Right now I want oldchem back. Maybe it was too easy but this is too far in the other direction. I'm not sure if this can all be fixed. It doesn't feel like a lot of thought went into this and just straight transfered a lot of drugs. Like Epinephrine, I understand on goonstation you can still move about after you hit 0 with a penalty of occasional blackouts. Here Epinephrine would make sense. There is almost no situation its helpful in a station where you black out at 0.

What the system sorely lacks is a way to heal people large amounts over time. Tricord was probably too good but Bicard and Kelotine were good for that. They almost did make things too simple though. These chems like Atropine seem like they might be the right thing but they stop working at levels that would bring you to barely concious on goon but leave you knocked out on TG. If it got tweaked so it raised your health to 10 then it'd be an effective chem to bring someone out of crit with. Add in a more chems like charcoal that heal a small amount guarenteed every tick. Maybe even limit it so it only works on paitents above 0 to stop it from being too useful on critted people. This lets you give someone a pill and shoo them out of medbay, roughed up but alive and recovering.

I think we need to take a step back and remember we're playing a game for fun. Now Speesmen are going to get thumped with toolboxes, shocked on doors, and fall out hull breaches. Getting hurt is part of that fun. Some people may get a rush when they're dragged to medbay in crit. The issue is that now that fun relies on the compitence of two chemists being able to keep up with it all. The doctors have relitively little input on it since they only have enough supplies to heal one person from the start.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:54 pm #60250

Addendum to Pennywise's input:
The additions affect more than just Sybil. Basil is hit by this too, and we're lucky to even have one chemist every shift. I haven't played since /tg/chem was pulled, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that medbay is now tubetown, be it cloning tube or cryotube.