/tg/Station 13

Forum poll time!!11

Recently chemistry was reworked to have non-tiered chems and instead use LLJK's chemistry

However this also replaced bruise packs and ointment and changed the balance of sleepers and cryo

lel salty much pap

edit: also it occurs to me that it's highly ironic for you to make this poll when you blatantly ignore the results of polls made against your changes.

wait, why are you making the poll? Shouldnt Goof do that since it was his change?

As much as I would like to see this reverted, I doubt it will happen even if 100+ people vote with a 90% result in favor of revert.

paprika wrote:Forum poll time!!11

Recently chemistry was reworked to have non-tiered chems and instead use LLJK's chemistry

However this also replaced bruise packs and ointment and changed the balance of sleepers and cryo

Remove goonchem, dont touch sleepers. We like our overpowered sleepers and chems and its needed on fucking highpop servers.

I just sit in Medbay and never get healed until I leave from boredom. I cannot heal myself anymore. That's stupid. I should always be able to heal myself. Please stop removing self-player actions. A player should literally be able to do everything. Doing it with another person should make it more efficient. There are of course exceptions to this rule, but for base aspects of the game, I should have full control of what I'm doing and healing happens to be one of them.

Gun Hog wrote:As much as I would like to see this reverted, I doubt it will happen even if 100+ people vote with a 90% result in favor of revert.

Paprika could do it themselves.

goonchem isn't even fucking finished being ported, can you at least wait until then

allura wrote:goonchem isn't even fucking finished being ported, can you at least wait until then

No. Finish making it before porting it, or compartmentalize the change. That is the expectation most fucking projects have. Acting like that is an undue request is shitty. This change isn't owed anything and by all accounts is broken, we shouldn't have to hold our breath for a potential benefit if there clearly is none now.

allura wrote:goonchem isn't even fucking finished being ported, can you at least wait until then

If it isn't finished, why the FUCK was /tg/chem pulled when it could be covering the gaps in goonchem? Why have we had NO attempts to balance the shit healing? No attempts to make toxins less deadly other than being told 'well chem can fix it'. No attempts to fix spaghetti code like ((volume-(volume*2))*REM). No attempts to do anything but shovel more shit down our throats. This change had potential, but 0/10 implementation.

Bring back Trekchem, bring back bruisepacks, bring back ointment. Other thread covers the details about why Goonchem was a terrible change.

dezzmont wrote:

allura wrote:goonchem isn't even fucking finished being ported, can you at least wait until then

No. Finish making it before porting it, or compartmentalize the change. That is the expectation most fucking projects have. Acting like that is an undue request is shitty. This change isn't owed anything and by all accounts is broken, we shouldn't have to hold our breath for a potential benefit if there clearly is none now.

^
why was it ported unfinished
playtesting is one thing but good god.

snakebutt is right too, if it's not finished, removing tg chems was an awful idea.

It's nice and interesting, especially certain chemicals, but I believe the default healing in medkits are quite literally abysmal. I could consume an entire box and not have fully healed myself - on top of that, there aren't stacks of patches in them, so it carries less too.

Needs severe balancing before full implementation on /tg/. I like the thought, it's better than the typical rote that is Trekchem, but, it's abject hell even surviving. Now, if you made them heal a great deal more, but, say, take a great deal more time to do so - that would be hunky dory.

Edit: I've just discovered it takes 3~ minutes to consume an entire patch. Who knew? Still, insufficient to have 3 of them for doctors that used to come with 15 bruise packs.

This was like the last time dismemberment was added and removed. Good but was not ready for prime time. Right now the balance is completely shot, healing effects too weak and side effects too strong for /tg/med

Hey here's an idea how about you fucking rebalance it all for /tg/ use and then attempt to push it through again? keep some of the chemicals that don't really exist outside of /tg/ chem such as Krokodil and the drugs.


Do testing where it can be reasonably good for /tg/ med rather than goon med.

But you don't listen to the players anyway so why does it matter?


Also perhaps just rename all their chemicals into the Star Trek chems but just keep the recipes the same after you reintroduce goon chem. Star trek names are neato

I actually really like some of their chems better than ours, for example Dexalin Plus instantly healing all oxygen deperivation at 1u is total bullshit. Peruflo heals oxyloss at a rate of like 25 per cycle, which is basically the same thing, with the added benifit of large doses allowing spacewalks, all at the low cost of muting you. Morphine makes you go fast, until you build up enough in your system then go to sleep, perfect for the annoying tiders that pester chemistry so they can roll around at the speed of sound. Changing a few chems at a time, and introducing interesting new ones like charcoal or Calomel are great, but an outright transition with no input is very, very bad.

Snakebutt wrote:I actually really like some of their chems better than ours, for example Dexalin Plus instantly healing all oxygen deperivation at 1u is total bullshit. Peruflo heals oxyloss at a rate of like 25 per cycle, which is basically the same thing, with the added benifit of large doses allowing spacewalks, all at the low cost of muting you. Morphine makes you go fast, until you build up enough in your system then go to sleep, perfect for the annoying tiders that pester chemistry so they can roll around at the speed of sound. Changing a few chems at a time, and introducing interesting new ones like charcoal or Calomel are great, but an outright transition with no input is very, very bad.

Mute is actually one of the most powerful offensive effects in the game and I kind of don't like that it is easily obtained by crafting a nominally beneficial chemical unless we add it to more stuff.

dezzmont wrote:

Snakebutt wrote:I actually really like some of their chems better than ours, for example Dexalin Plus instantly healing all oxygen deperivation at 1u is total bullshit. Peruflo heals oxyloss at a rate of like 25 per cycle, which is basically the same thing, with the added benifit of large doses allowing spacewalks, all at the low cost of muting you. Morphine makes you go fast, until you build up enough in your system then go to sleep, perfect for the annoying tiders that pester chemistry so they can roll around at the speed of sound. Changing a few chems at a time, and introducing interesting new ones like charcoal or Calomel are great, but an outright transition with no input is very, very bad.

Mute is actually one of the most powerful offensive effects in the game and I kind of don't like that it is easily obtained by crafting a nominally beneficial chemical unless we add it to more stuff.

The side effects NEED to be balanced and also tied to rarer chemicals. Right now everyone has one of the most powerful stunning weapons in the game with their medpens, you can run up and jab the Captain with it to steal his stuff and get BWOINKed.

I said this before but regenerative chemicals need to be buffed badly, Synthflesh on a 1:1 scale is just too low, it needs to be at least 3:1 or 5:1. On top of that a lot of other upkeep meds like Salitic Acid have a CHANCE to heal which encourges using injectors to beat the RNG but the system severely punishes those who don't use patches, which makes them nigh useless and left unmade by chems in favor for the weak but effective meds like Synthflesh.

Which goes back to my problems with it, healing is so weak that you may as well use cryo and toxins are so strong you can unintentionally harm others.

As much as I like the new chems I'd rather have the old ones back and keep the goonchems. It's just silly trying to heal people right now

Someone told me that synthflesh heals at a rate of 2:1 over time, and I assume it's a chemical application so it heals a flat 50 points to both classes. Though when I tested it it only heals the harmed part of the body.

EDIT: Is it possible to have multicolored patches so the chemist can make it easier to determine what is what?

Don't listen to these haters goofball, you're the best, keep on truckin' ;^)

WeeYakk wrote:Don't listen to these haters goofball, you're the best, keep on truckin' ;^)

It's an inprovement over our ancient system but it's being rolled out too fast without making sure the parts worked (also there's a ton of chemical analogs that haven't been added yet, like lube, thermite, and EMP reactions)

Aleph wrote:(also there's a ton of chemical analogs that haven't been added yet, like lube, thermite, and EMP reactions)

Nope, goof removed /tg/med, the misc. reactions are all still in. At least according to the wiki, I can't be assed to pull the newest branch just to read more shitty gooncode

Aleph wrote:
It's an inprovement over our ancient system

But what was so ancient and bad about TGchem? No one complained except for the coders, who of course got their way because they're not responsible for anything.

mikecari wrote:

Aleph wrote:
It's an inprovement over our ancient system

But what was so ancient and bad about TGchem? No one complained except for the coders, who of course got their way because they're not responsible for anything.

I think the idea was TGchem was too simple. 20u of Bicaradine, Kelotine, or Anti tox would heal 100 of that type of damage. 20u of Tricord could heal about 40 of all damage types. None of these chems were more than 6 clicks. No side effects or restrictions to any of them. Just have your paitent swallow a pill and forget. I'm guessing it was felt there were no nuances to it, something to make the medical jobs a bit more exciting. Sleepers compounded this issue by making 2 of those chems available in unlimited supply and ointment and burn packs could quickly and easily bring a paitent out of crit and were abundant. As long as the cryo mix was taken care of at shift start you hardly needed the chemists.

I feel Goonchem failed on two points. One, some of the stuff REALLY wasn't thought up. I hate to bring up Epinephrine again but if the intention was for it to be go to drug for a paitent in crit it failed spectacularly. With its side effects it practically turns the medipen into a grief tool. Two, it puts too much stress on the chemists and they'll still fall behind in a crisis. A critted person could take 3 or 4 patches to get to full health. You never have enough charcoal (Fun fact. All the prespawned charcoal bottles actually have useless Saline in them.) Some of the more basic things have 2 or 3 intermediate steps. The worst would probably be Cryox and Clonex: Gotta make oil, to make Phenol, to make Salisylic, to make Salbutamol, to make Cryox. With two chemists you can probably keep afloat. With one its going to be a constant struggle. No Chemists and you're in for a wild ride.

I want to see this newchem system work. Theres an oppritunity to make talented MDs and chemists stand out a bit more but the way they stand now its a struggle just to stay afloat. Diffrences in the health system between Goon and TG need to be taken into account and the chems need tweaking. It either needs to happen quickly. I'm a little hesitant to say just revert it though. Its got its charms and rough spots but if we add back in Tricord and Bruise packs you'll likely never see a Steptic patch again.

It really needs to be reverted.

The change is actually a massive one and affects almost every part of medical, as well as how everyone interacts with and reacts to damaging threats.

There was absolutely no work done on the change as far as I can see when it was implimented. It was just shoved in with the intent to update it later.

That behavior, to be frank, has been a massive embarassment to this community in the past and in no way should be tollerated. There have been large parts of the code damaged for months because a coder goes into a manic phase, starts a super ambitious project, but decides to shove code in "To support future changes" that has dramatic negative consequences, and then vanishes. It is why atmos for example, partial changes kept building up on each other and became a mess.

The live server is not a place to dump unfinished work, or even stuff you didn't even start on.

If it is not ready for live, don't put it live. No exceptions.

If it is not ready for live, take it off live. No exceptions.

It is a pretty darn simple and common sense rune. I can't stress enough how little respect I have, or anyone should have, for someone who does this.

Goonchem doesn't seem even close to being intergrated properly into the game. Removing medical chems was a moronic move, any sane person would not see that their code was broken on so many levels and that the reaction was almost universally negative and then decide to force the base to rely more on the code. Maybe they were trying to make people "get used to it" but it backfired in a huge way.

This frankly never should have been approved.

Look at the PR's feedback.

Look at it.

Look at the level of discussion going on here and really think about if we can in any way trust this to turn out well when the feedback process included a "lol do it yourself."

This wasn't coderbus forcing something on the playerbase, like some players seem to think, a lot of people active in the code team really despised this change. Feedback for this change was almost universally poor and pointed out how it reeked of being completely lazy. The coder in question who made this admitted they don't trust themselves to change the existing medical system with tweaks but feels totally fine copy pasting a bunch of goon code into the game.

I know it is sort of bad taste to harp on about how the change was made and such but it is extremely important when the only virtue for this change is "it may be good" when we have absolutely no reason to beleive it will based on track record of the change as is, statements from the coder behind the change, and the utter lack of thought put into it to begin with.

The rabbit hole here goes so deep that I honestly kind of want to submit it to one of my professors to use as an example in his interactive media project design (videogames without the fun! And sometimes actual videogames!) class, because it hits on pretty much every major red flag that you would literally use to fire someone, not someone you put in charge of a vital part of your project, and while the metaphor from professional grade design team to coderbus is wonky at best, this is essentially what is happening, we are trusting the coder who made this change to somehow make it into a good change, but based on what we can see is going on both in the design process and with the actual change we can safely assume this will not happen.

i missed dezzmont tbh

Yeah look at all the feedback, most of it is from idiots who have either never tried the new system or miss very obvious recipes. But the poll is speaking for itself, revert it.

This was just like when one guy tried to port bay's dismemberment system years ago, it was a 1:1 copy with no checking if anything worked or was balanced and it caused a bunch of problems not limited to being able to move without limbs and beheading someone causing the server to crash

Everyone on the server demanded for a long time now some sort of overhaul to medbay since it's remained almost unchanged for years with the last big thing being the addition of the defib which was just a single item. Just grabbing somthing off the shelf and taping it on isn't going to work since like I said, at best it'll cause huge gameplay problems and at worst it'll crash the server repeatly

Alex Crimson wrote:Yeah look at all the feedback, most of it is from idiots who have either never tried the new system or miss very obvious recipes. But the poll is speaking for itself, revert it.

Medpacks can't even bring someone out of crit.
Sleepers are useless.
Clonex is a tier 6-7 recipe.
Medipens are grifftools.
There was zero thought for balance put in.
Best I can tell, the only reason for the change was 'Make chem more complex'(lolwut), and 'I dun liek tricord'.
Very little feedback from the coder who did all the work on this.
Pulled oldchem before anyone was even used to the system.
Live server was used as a testing ground without paying attention to player feedback.

Most of the people giving feedback were either going off their player experience in medbay, as doctors, or from reading the code itself. No one liked it, and the fact that this poll is nearly unanimous is telling.

Goof made a good speech on the PR, but Steelpoint was quite right, this is poorly implemented change for the sake of change.

Ive had no problems healing from crit. If you mean the patches in Medkits then Goofball said he was buffing them.
Clonex is easy to make, just use the pills in Oxygen Medkits(this is how ive always made Clonex anyways)
The chemical in Medipens is obviously not working as intended so bug report it.

Best i can tell is that people would rather bitch and whine than help make stuff better. Its a new change that messes with a lot of Chemistry, its going to be buggy. But i agree Goofball should not remove the old recipes until at least a week or two of testing after putting all the goonchem recipes in.

A medical/chemistry overhaul should have been done from the ground up and not poorly ported over.

Goonstations Chem system is for Goonstation and is balanced for Goonstation, not /tg/station.

Wasn't there supposed to be one for four years but the guy went AWOL?

Aleph wrote:Wasn't there supposed to be one for four years but the guy went AWOL?

Story of /tg/station.

The code is terrible. This kind of code would get you fired as a programmer pretty much anywhere.

If the reason for this change is that the healing is too easy, just nerf it. It takes 5 minutes to do so.

The names of the drugs are ridiculous and childish. Seriously: Krokodil and meth in the 25th century. It's like it was designed by a 15 years old kid.

Also, if we wanted goon code we would go play on Goon.

Like I said a while ago when this was being considered, I was all for it thinking we'd get a few fun chems from Goon ported over, but then we got the whole thing without being balanced for /tg/ and then /tg/ chem got completely gutted. I can't stand this change and, as much as it hurts to say because I usually love Goofball's changes, I'd really appreciate a revert on this.

dezzmont wrote:It really needs to be reverted.

The change is actually a massive one and affects almost every part of medical, as well as how everyone interacts with and reacts to damaging threats.

There was absolutely no work done on the change as far as I can see when it was implimented. It was just shoved in with the intent to update it later.

That behavior, to be frank, has been a massive embarassment to this community in the past and in no way should be tollerated. There have been large parts of the code damaged for months because a coder goes into a manic phase, starts a super ambitious project, but decides to shove code in "To support future changes" that has dramatic negative consequences, and then vanishes. It is why atmos for example, partial changes kept building up on each other and became a mess.

The live server is not a place to dump unfinished work, or even stuff you didn't even start on.

If it is not ready for live, don't put it live. No exceptions.

If it is not ready for live, take it off live. No exceptions.

It is a pretty darn simple and common sense rune. I can't stress enough how little respect I have, or anyone should have, for someone who does this.

Goonchem doesn't seem even close to being intergrated properly into the game. Removing medical chems was a moronic move, any sane person would not see that their code was broken on so many levels and that the reaction was almost universally negative and then decide to force the base to rely more on the code. Maybe they were trying to make people "get used to it" but it backfired in a huge way.

This frankly never should have been approved.

Look at the PR's feedback.

Look at it.

Look at the level of discussion going on here and really think about if we can in any way trust this to turn out well when the feedback process included a "lol do it yourself."

This wasn't coderbus forcing something on the playerbase, like some players seem to think, a lot of people active in the code team really despised this change. Feedback for this change was almost universally poor and pointed out how it reeked of being completely lazy. The coder in question who made this admitted they don't trust themselves to change the existing medical system with tweaks but feels totally fine copy pasting a bunch of goon code into the game.

I know it is sort of bad taste to harp on about how the change was made and such but it is extremely important when the only virtue for this change is "it may be good" when we have absolutely no reason to beleive it will based on track record of the change as is, statements from the coder behind the change, and the utter lack of thought put into it to begin with.

The rabbit hole here goes so deep that I honestly kind of want to submit it to one of my professors to use as an example in his interactive media project design (videogames without the fun! And sometimes actual videogames!) class, because it hits on pretty much every major red flag that you would literally use to fire someone, not someone you put in charge of a vital part of your project, and while the metaphor from professional grade design team to coderbus is wonky at best, this is essentially what is happening, we are trusting the coder who made this change to somehow make it into a good change, but based on what we can see is going on both in the design process and with the actual change we can safely assume this will not happen.

This gets into a lot of the theory. (Pushing major changes to the server with zero playtesting -- not just "lel does it compile ok good," actual playtesting to assess balance -- is shit on so many levels. Most actual, professional games have test servers for this very purpose, and I don't see why people can't just revive Terry and announce test periods.) Here is one example to show how it is bad in practice:

I'm revhead. The rev fight is in arrivals, but I get lasered to crit and die before I can get healed. I get cloned. After I am cloned, I am in red health. I remain in either red health or crit for at least 15 minutes because no one can figure out how to heal me and the stuff they use to heal me doesn't work. Apparently I took toxin damage at some point but absolutely nothing gets rid of it, not medbay, not duke purple tea, nada. I stumble out of the medbay, take one disabler shot, die, revs lose.

Yes, on the surface this is "I ded pls nerf" but it illustrates just how fundamentally game-changing such a thing is.

Well, at least the poll results aren't ambiguous. There's no way a coder could look at that and think "Well, maybe they still want the change?".

they won't revert it though I bet.

bandit wrote:I'm revhead. The rev fight is in arrivals, but I get lasered to crit and die before I can get healed. I get cloned. After I am cloned, I am in red health. I remain in either red health or crit for at least 15 minutes because no one can figure out how to heal me and the stuff they use to heal me doesn't work. Apparently I took toxin damage at some point but absolutely nothing gets rid of it, not medbay, not duke purple tea, nada. I stumble out of the medbay, take one disabler shot, die, revs lose.

I'm sorry, but I have to address this because it's stupid. Sulfiadazine/styptic for burn/brute. Mannitol and Mutadone for all your cloning problems. Charcoal could use a buff but it will fix your toxins, if you want that faster done use pentetic acid and counter the brute damage. Alternatively, you could do what literally everyone does after cloning and enter the sleepers, which simplifies that to a mannitol-mutadone-cryox mix that will fix all your problems because cryoxadone is now clonexadone anyways.


Before extrapolating wild scenarios, at least bother to read the wiki on the chemicals before 'hurr durr nothing fixes toxin damage'

Also you died to a disabler shot and where were your revs you must have been doomed anyways if it was that bad.
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_chemistry

I logged in just to vote on this and say that it is bullshit and I hate it.

Cipher3 wrote: Alternatively, you could do what literally everyone does after cloning and enter the sleepers, which simplifies that to a mannitol-mutadone-cryox mix that will fix all your problems because cryoxadone is now clonexadone anyways.

Wait, this means cryo mix is literally dead. Before you could play with the cryox/clonex ratio, put in various healing chems for better results. Now it's literally just 'toss in the cryox beaker at round start, fuck the chemist'.

Let me repeat that.

CRYO DOESN"T EVEN HAVE TO BE SET UP ANYMORE.

We're 44-6 in favor of Goonchem reversion, with 4 abstaining, as of writing

But it won't be reverted, of course!

It's terrible.

Chemistry didn't need to be made more complicated. It was already balanced between something someone couldn't jump right in and do first time on the server, but something that didn't take actual autism to be comfortable with and learn.

To put it bluntly, this is a goddamn game and shit doesn't need to be this complicated.

Furthermore, having it this involved means people will have more catastrophic accidents which kill other players while genuinely being able to say "I didn't mean to!". This is bad, in and of itself, as others shouldn't be made to be bystanders for your own fuckups while learning something. Case in point: a round that just happened on Basil where a bunch of superhot death gas poured out of chem breaking all the windows and killing a large number of people.

What makes this especially shitty is that players can do this intentionally while claiming to just be inept...and with the steps this needlessly complicated there's really no way of telling the difference between people who are screwing up and people who are doing it on purpose.

Revert this please. This was not a contribution to the game.

I'll say it again and again
This was not something that should have been merged as hastily as it was
you can't just rip this shit from goon, a RADICALLY DIFFERENT codebase than ours with RADICALLY DIFFERENT BALANCE
and then tear out our OWN chems
and expect it to go fine
fuck you at this point if you defend this honestly holy shit.

danno wrote:I'll say it again and again
This was not something that should have been merged as hastily as it was
you can't just rip this shit from goon, a RADICALLY DIFFERENT codebase than ours with RADICALLY DIFFERENT BALANCE
and then tear out our OWN chems
and expect it to go fine
fuck you at this point if you defend this honestly holy shit.

I would think the coders would of known better by not because this isn't the first time we were here

it was merged in like a day and so was the removal of normal chems
like wtf, that kind of shit doesnt just happen for no reason

Goon chem has a ton of potential in replacing our current shitty system

But there's no way anyone is going to revert this because it's so fucking strung out over like 5 prs now and it would take a long time and effort

My best suggestion is to tell goof to stop touching the code and let someone experienced balance this stuff, especially patches, which totally ruined md imo

An0n3 wrote:-Snip-

Can incidents like these allow players to have actual say in what the coders decided to force upon us now? Updates like this should definitely have player polling and testing before any of it is implemented. Because we've had a few gameplay changing updates added in that've received backlash and usually were never fixed

RG4 wrote:

An0n3 wrote:-Snip-

Can incidents like these allow players to have actual say in what the coders decided to force upon us now? Updates like this should definitely have player polling and testing before any of it is implemented. Because we've had a few gameplay changing updates added in that've received backlash and usually were never fixed

You ask me that like I could just wave my hand and make it so.

You ask me that like I wouldn't have done that months, if not years ago already.

I'll tell you what though, of your three headmins two of them have pretty extensive coder experience and one of them is even headcoder. Maybe now is a good time to approach them with your wants and I'll do what I can to help.