Infinite Datum Materials, and their design space.

[Arcanemusic]

So me and floyd have been arguing about this for about an hour and a half now on the discord so it's probably a good idea to move this to a thread because we keep bouncing around between topics so this way I can keep it targeted to one point specificially:

There are several materials in the game as we speak can be used to infinitely produce several types of datum materials, those being wood (Towercaps), plastic (Chem Factories), meat (Chemfactories/Meatwheat), and more. These specific material datums aren't bad by themselves, but it does at least warrant some thought on how material datums should be thought about in the future. Expanding or limiting what can be made using what materials is easy enough, as floyd has mentioned using categories for what can be made with specific craftability "tiers", like low/medium/high craftability. This is a decent idea to go forward on, but it does beg the question, should there even be a way to generate an infinite amount of a datum material, of even a low craftability/non-rigid material?

This currently effects things like custom material lathe objects, objects/structures obtained by stackcrafting, and what CAN be made in either of those catagories going forward as far as I'm concerned.

And lets not talk about metalgen here because that is a whole separate can of worms for a different day.

[Qustinnus]

So while I agree that there is room to argue that the current methods of production are OP especially for things such as plastic which could theoretically have more high value use in the future (Unlike wood and meat which are generally lower value), its more an issue with chemistry, plumbing and botany in general. You can theoretically make infinite of almost anything with chem factories, I don't see how in that sense it's a material datum problem. It's more a problem with chemistry in general and would instead propose you focus on the issues with chemistry at large; the ability to pump out almost all required chems with a magic machine.

With botany I think it has a similar issue except you can mass produce any plant aslong as you've gotten it once before.

Again, I don't think this is an issue right now because meat plastic and wood are both low-value crafting items that don't really make for strong items, and would be barred from things like firearm production if materials ever get to that stage. With plastic being a semi-outlier in that regard as it might have some more important uses later, but again, thats a chemistry issue.

[oranges]

You are fucking the material economy up further floyd.'

every new datum material is a further spike in the damn things heart.

I dont' think we should be adding new shit when the system is so wildly fucked that I have to add other systems just to control high end items cleanly.

[Qustinnus]

I'm not adding new shit wtf is this hostility for? I made this system after ninjanomnom requested it and it literaly meets every single thing he specified.

Because people add systems such as infinite chemistry factories somehow my material datums are to blame? Don't be so hostile and just explain what issues you have.

edit: extra points for blaming me for this stuff when metalgen isn't mine and the only new materials I've added are meat which has no real powergaming use and runite which is only obtainable through a ruin.

[Cobby]

Chemistry: magic machine / magic synths are cringe.
Botany: Magic plants where you can make the equivalent of a patch is cringe.
Mining: Not infinite but it's more than you'd ever need in a round not even including my favorite.
My favorite, Upgrades: blurs literally everything at arbitrary levels, particularly mining in that it makes the already existing problem more of a problem.

[Shadowflame909]

my hot take is magic plants should be grounded down and used as the scavenger hunt piece for the magic machine to then synthensize the compounds of the magic machine

[Mickyan]

We already have basic functionality for meat production with animal husbandry which is already far less exploitable than synthmeat production, and once it actually gets some use there's more reason to expand the system into something more interesting

Same concept should apply to other currently infinite material sources. In other news chemistry ruins everything

[oranges]

I'm not adding new shit wtf is this hostility for? I made this system after ninjanomnom requested it and it literaly meets every single thing he specified.

Because people add systems such as infinite chemistry factories somehow my material datums are to blame? Don't be so hostile and just explain what issues you have.

edit: extra points for blaming me for this stuff when metalgen isn't mine and the only new materials I've added are meat which has no real powergaming use and runite which is only obtainable through a ruin.

you dogged the boys

edit: nah tbh I am sorry for yelling in my earlier post, it just feels like people keep adding material datums without trying to fix the underlying material economy which is totally fucked and so they just ignore the problem

it's really frustrating to me

[trollbreeder]

Plumbing is the problems of chemistry cranked up to 11. With the chem dispenser, you could realistically get about 10 pills of a complex chem per batch, and then you'll need to follow the steps again to make more. With plumbing, the magic poo machine just shits out pill after pill after pill, possibly enough to crash your client if you right click on the pill press.

This also applies to infinite materials. Chemistry can make fukketones of metalgen, plastic, food, corgium, etc. without even needing to supervise the machinery (which was the main drawback of using the chemspenser, you need to operate it and have it's big UI in your face)

TL:DR; Plumbing was a mistake.

[oranges]

the synthesisers are going, do not worry

[Tlaltecuhtli]

i dont understand what even is this about, is it the idea that you can sell infinitely made materials to cargo like plastic forever? well thats just wrong and not real we have E L A S I C I T Y var that makes price go down really fast so even selling 9000 stacks of plastic would give you 1 credit more than just selling 3 stacks, and it cant be used for minting

[Cobby]

Plumbing is the problems of chemistry cranked up to 11. With the chem dispenser, you could realistically get about 10 pills of a complex chem per batch, and then you'll need to follow the steps again to make more. With plumbing, the magic poo machine just shits out pill after pill after pill, possibly enough to crash your client if you right click on the pill press.

This also applies to infinite materials. Chemistry can make fukketones of metalgen, plastic, food, corgium, etc. without even needing to supervise the machinery (which was the main drawback of using the chemspenser, you need to operate it and have it's big UI in your face)

TL:DR; Plumbing was a mistake.

Plumbing is just a long format of the macro. The issue is that chem gets it's chems from magic machines in both the dispenser and synths.

Making a hundred pills that fit every instance by twenty minutes is about on par with a dripfeed of pills with similar functionality after spending ten+ minutes setting up the factory to support more complicated chems. If anything the dispenser is easier if you do your macros correctly. The only practical benefit imo is that I can do the chem stuff in the factory space and have the pills themselves pop up right in front of the doctor rather than having to spam medical radio or drop them in a huge pile for them to see use.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

Plumbing is just a long format of the macro. The issue is that chem gets it's chems from magic machines in both the dispenser and synths.

Making a hundred pills that fit every instance by twenty minutes is about on par with a dripfeed of pills with similar functionality after spending ten+ minutes setting up the factory to support more complicated chems. If anything the dispenser is easier if you do your macros correctly. The only practical benefit imo is that I can do the chem stuff in the factory space and have the pills themselves pop up right in front of the doctor rather than having to spam medical radio or drop them in a huge pile for them to see use.

well possible solutions to infinite chems are:
1) make mineral chemicals created from smelting ores (and specific new ores like sulfur) in orm + organic chemicals made by plants then bluespace available to chemistry like we have for ore silo
2) make the chems require a cartridge buyable from cargo, you get an universal one and you alt click to set the chem you want
3) synthetizers use $ to work