Lack of player input on changes

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Xhuis
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Lack of player input on changes

Postby Xhuis » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:06 am #61351

This has been a problem for months now. Players that don't go on GitHub or the forums have no way of knowing about upcoming changes or voting on them short of OOC. As such, changes that GitHub likes but the majority of players don't go onto the server and people are angry as a result.

Something needs to be done about this.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:28 am #61356

Players that don't go on Github or the forums are cutting themselves out of the conversation.

Important decisions dont get made in OOC. If you want to stay abreast of things and participate you have to make the effort and show up in the big obvious place (that is, here, where you are right now) where that stuff happens.

Your complaint boils down to "People who don't read the newspaper don't know about current events!"

Whose fault is that?

The actual problem here isn't the lack of conversation on topics, it's the lack of the other shoe ever dropping. Recent conduct on the part of certain coders in response to negative feedback on their changes is nothing short of childish and makes the whole group look incredibly mismanaged and ill-willed towards the rest of the community.

But there's absolutely nothing to be done about it. Beyond harsh language nothing will happen and the system that is currently in place that provides changes to code wont change.

That's the problem. Where the fuck is the accountability here?
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Scones » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:36 am #61358

I PM'd HG hoping he would adress my somewhat similar concerns, so I'll wait for that before getting too deeply invested in this conversation.

An0n3 is right, however, that players who get angry despite not going on Github/the forums have nobody to blame but themselves. Granted, the feedback is rarely if ever listened to, and that is the real issue we need to be talking about.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Hornygranny » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:11 am #61374

The codebase is not a democracy, but it's open to everyone. If you want to contribute to development, come to #coderbus on rizon or post on github.

With regards to the feedback forum, too much of the posting here is not actionable by the coders. If you have concerns with something, suggest improvements rather than state dislike. Allura had to actually ask for specific feedback after many pages of Goonchem feedback because there was almost nothing useful in the thread. You're not going to convince someone that their opinion (the feature) is bad with your opinion, so please don't try.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby danno » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:31 am #61383

Making an account on either the forums or github is the bare minimum you have to do to participate.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:39 am #61389

It's not hard to make a git and forum account.

That said, it's unreasonable to expect people to constanty watch the pulse/forums to see what changes are coming, especially when they're massive changes that effect gameplay.

Just as it's easy to make an account, it's also easy to pin an annoucement to OOC linking to a significant PR.


Also people merging things calling it a 'trial run' or saying 'we can remove it if people don't like it/doesn't work', and then not reverting it, or having to kick and scream for weeks to get it done, is a big part of why a lot of people have a very poor opinion of coderbus, since it gives the impression that they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes/don't give a fuck about their opinions/are lazy.

I'm of the opinion that when things get 'trialled' they have a fixed period, then get reverted. People can have a circlejerk/bitch about it, and decide whether it's worth merging permanently.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby dezzmont » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:27 am #61393

Hornygranny wrote:The codebase is not a democracy, but it's open to everyone. If you want to contribute to development, come to #coderbus on rizon or post on github.

With regards to the feedback forum, too much of the posting here is not actionable by the coders. If you have concerns with something, suggest improvements rather than state dislike. Allura had to actually ask for specific feedback after many pages of Goonchem feedback because there was almost nothing useful in the thread. You're not going to convince someone that their opinion (the feature) is bad with your opinion, so please don't try.

"It needs to go" is valid feedback.

Not everything is something we want to build on. Sometimes specific paths of ideas are dead ends, and acting like an intensely negative backlash to the change is invalid feedback is a completely invalid thing to do is dishonest.

You are not just a headcoder, you are a head admin. You have a responsibility to make sure that the quality of the coding project is good, but you are also beholden to this server, and right now the people on the server you represent have come to an understanding that the coder team essentially hates them. Prominent coder team members have openly insulted the playerbase and taunted them about their ability to do whatever the fuck they want, and have started to game the system in order to control and censor discussion by exploiting how forum mods handle broken rules in such a sweeping and imprecise way. You are now put in an uncomfortable situation because you may percieve a conflict of interest, but I frankly don't see one. At this point it is a crisis within both orginizational structures and pretending everything is OK and dandy in the coder team is ridiculous.

It has come to light through multiple threads, including some you deleted in an attempt to defend the code team from feedback they didn't like. All of this was avoidable, but through extended confrontational "my way or the highway" attitudes we have come to a point where I think it is safe to say that the playerbase, in general, doesn't have any real faith in the coder team. It is a joke in every respect. Even the administration is openly mocking them at this point. You are having a leadership crisis and you either don't know it or don't want to recognize it. Even if your core point is right, and it really isn't by the way but we will get to that, as a headmin you need to adress the pretty open abuse flowing from your code team.

And by the way, people did suggest changes to make goonchem work better. Allura vetoed a lot of feedback, especially regarding changes MDs, because "Too much like oldchem." There was also a lot of talk about what goonchem even was trying to do and how it had really stupid goals. The talk about how making healing deliberately potentially lethal negatively affected the game was particularly high end because it completely bypassed most of Allura's protests by adressing their underlying idea: It doesn't matter if a really good doctor can operate effortlessly under this system, it increased the learning curve, makes admin's lives hell, and made it way too risky for people to gamble on a doc ever.

There is a massive difference between something really being unintellegent gibberish that has no bearing on anything being discussed and something being a completely valid point that is just uncomfortable, such as "This really sucks for reasons X, Y, and Z." It is even worse, because as An0n3 pointed out goonchem not only is being forced to stay in "because you have yet to convince me" but people are layering change after change on top of it to make it an even more dramatic push towards a direction no one wants to go in. Some coders have tried to argue that we just need time to get used to the change because the playerbase always complains but: A: That implies you think the playerbase is made up of idiots who can't put two and two together and look at the change and evaluate it and are borderline animals, B: that players never have instantly taken to changes well, which happens a lot when coders do their homework and put real effort and work into something because that shows, and C: That we have even been given time to adjust to anything before a coder tries to change even more shit, because if you think that time is really the factor then you should probably wait more than a few days before doing a massive feature delete in an attempt to make chemistry unrecognizable. There is a point where you need to stop and re-evaluate what is happening and we have passed it.

Now if you are saying what I think you are saying, that the playerbase has no right to ever tell a coder that their code is unwanted, we have a problem because now we have seriously entered into fucked up territory where the codebase is essentially anarchy and no one has any responsibility to the greater quality of it unless a head coder personally takes offense or someone decides to start a wheel war.

Now we, as the playerbase, and hopefully the admin team who represent us, have a couple of options to deal with that, because the relationship has gone from one of collaberation and trust to a fully adversarial one where one party admits fully it doesn't have any interests in common with the later.

We can go with your way, where players are never allowed to criticize a code in a manner that suggests there are irrevocable flaws in the core idea. This is stupid and no sane creative or technical project works like this for obvious reasons. It allows designers to get overly fixated on a flawed idea and insist everything else change to accomidate their dumb wish. Anyone with a brainstem should recognize how bad an idea this is because if we did this we would still have stupid shit like diagonals in the game. There is no actual difference between saying "You can't tell people to undo something they did" and "You can't tell people to change anything about what they did" because it is so easy to shift the focus of conversation there.

Or we can be remotely intellegent and try to actually work this out and handle this massively toxic relationship in a manner that is satisfactory to the playerbase while still letting coders make cool shit people actually want. We have seen that it doesn't have to fucking be this way if people just deflated their egos and people stopped acting like the coders had the right to never be offended ever that people don't like their stuff.

I mean honestly just look at the quality of stuff coming out of really genuine collaberative efforts like the stun overhaul and the security sprite thread. The stun overhaul started with very serious concerns and ultimately the playerbase agreed that the initial treatment didn't actually make sense because the core idea was somewhat flawed. The people making the change, instead of crying like infants, actually acted like professionals and devised multiple alternative treatments that eventually resulted in something really cool. It is almost like the skills require to be a designer and the skills required to program code are almost entirely different, and more to the point designers often miss stuff and benefit from people pointing out flaws in core assumptions. The security sprite thread also started out absurdly rocky with a lot of insults and short tempers but as people actually came together to combine their expertise something good came out of it. Pretending that protecting the coders at any cost is beneficial to the code is absurd, and in fact just makes stuff worse. We almost didn't get those cool sprites because the coder who ended up making possibly the coolest part of the change lost their cool and got discussion utterly shut down because of the idea of coder as a privileged position of authority and by starting a fight that they could become offended at the reaction and got it locked. The damage caused by allowing these behaviors to continue is real, because someone's work didn't get a fair shake due to this.

Finally, we don't design by democracy, but we certainly headmin by it, and it is somewhat funny that we pretend that coderbus is some seperate entity when we literally give them their own dedicated head slot in the election. I don't think it is unfair to say that if that is happening we can cut the bullshit and admit there is some give and take that needs to be happening. Coderbus isn't really a service at this point, we allow them to do on our codebase, and at this point to our codebase, we are not begging them to make this stuff, far from it, we are begging them to stop.



And fucking seriously people, while #coderbus pretty much is a clubhouse, Github isn't. You can easily go there, sign up, comment on stuff, and read the code. And considerng most of #coderbus are actually good coders who know what they are doing in that department, it will be rather easy to read. Even if you are posting in a feedback thread, read the entire PR. I have seen people say stupid stuff because they clearly didn't read the PR. That isn't cool. I have also seen people catch very serious gaffes by reading the PRs. Reading them can only help you.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Hornygranny » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:20 am #61410

It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:37 am #61415

If the 'division between the server and project is absolute', then why do we have a coder headmin, and why do coders get some level of admin thing on the server?

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby WeeYakk » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:42 am #61417

lumipharon wrote:If the 'division between the server and project is absolute', then why do we have a coder headmin, and why do coders get some level of admin thing on the server?

Because SoS gave that to coders to build trust or something. In reality what happened is the real SoS was assassinated years ago and buried in the Mojave desert and replaced with a coderbus shill body double.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:53 am #61421

Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.

And this is essentially what one expects on git as well. You can go on and on about how anyone can contribute on Git, but any time negative feedback to a change posted by a non-maintainer/non-headcoder is posted, comments are closed or locked to contributors to that PR only. If the division is absolute, then I have to ask where these "other downstreams" are the coderbus likes to bring up are. I mean, if the code isn't exclusive to this server and the "project" is totally apart, then there certainly must be somewhere else the code is used.

The question has been raised previously. What would actually remain of this "project" if we just stopped updating the server to the latest git version and let the bus play with their git accounts in the dark until the internet burns out?

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:57 am #61422

cedarbridge wrote:
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.

And this is essentially what one expects on git as well. You can go on and on about how anyone can contribute on Git, but any time negative feedback to a change posted by a non-maintainer/non-headcoder is posted, comments are closed or locked to contributors to that PR only. If the division is absolute, then I have to ask where these "other downstreams" are the coderbus likes to bring up are. I mean, if the code isn't exclusive to this server and the "project" is totally apart, then there certainly must be somewhere else the code is used.

The question has been raised previously. What would actually remain of this "project" if we just stopped updating the server to the latest git version and let the bus play with their git accounts in the dark until the internet burns out?


You have to ask? The codebase would disappear as the coders would all move on for the most part.

For better or for worse the codebase is only held accountable to themselves, and not to any external person or group. That's it.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:12 am #61428

Steelpoint wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.

And this is essentially what one expects on git as well. You can go on and on about how anyone can contribute on Git, but any time negative feedback to a change posted by a non-maintainer/non-headcoder is posted, comments are closed or locked to contributors to that PR only. If the division is absolute, then I have to ask where these "other downstreams" are the coderbus likes to bring up are. I mean, if the code isn't exclusive to this server and the "project" is totally apart, then there certainly must be somewhere else the code is used.

The question has been raised previously. What would actually remain of this "project" if we just stopped updating the server to the latest git version and let the bus play with their git accounts in the dark until the internet burns out?


You have to ask? The codebase would disappear as the coders would all move on for the most part.

For better or for worse the codebase is only held accountable to themselves, and not to any external person or group. That's it.

Exactly. The bus likes to talk about independence, but they depend on us a lot more than we depend on them. That's what makes the arrogance of the rhetoric coming out of the bus so confusing.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:48 am #61439

I have been playing since whenever and I have not stayed on github for a single amount of time for more then 3 minutes and I am pretty sure I can honestly say that. Yeah, it's probably easier but coders are gay anyway and programming is boring go jet skiing or something cool you fucking lame hackers making your security sprites who do you think you are
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:03 am #61452

The problem is people are always told to contribute if they want to do something, but that's just adding more shit to the pile.

We don't necessarily need more coders adding more things, we need some kind of design goal in mind. Every coder is capable of making vast changes to the game without anyone really stopping them other than to make the code itself not shit. No consideration is given to balance or what is good for the game.

I've really just given up on it and roll with it like I would any game developer making unpopular changes. It's a shame but it's the case that no one really has control over this game long-term except coderbus. Without a dedicated group to oversee changes from the perspective of the actual game people are playing on the other end, it's going to be the same.

Of course, it must be said that a lot of players are also at fault for not bloody putting any effort into contributing ideas or being hostile.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:12 am #61455

This shouldn't be an us vs them thing. We are one community.

There's a lot of lip service being paid to being an insoluble entity that is apart and disconnected from the /tg/station server but it's largely a load of shit. Where are these other clone servers hiding that are running this same exact code base? If these commits are not being made directly for this station, then who?

What are the bad things that result from "nationalizing" the codebase once and for all?

Is now not a good time to admit that perhaps plunking the berlin wall down between the server and the codebase was perhaps a poor decision, made years ago in a completely different environment from what we have now?

EDIT: I'm not trying to inspire a fucking mutiny here, nor am I trying to paint a picture of coders as some horrible secretive cabal who hates this game and the people who play it. On the contrary they're all pretty good people who get a lot of shit for stuff but I wonder how much of that is a result of the bizarre relationship we have. We could be better communicating this between us if there was not this weird pretense of coderbus being a tiny satellite nation in the midst of the /tg/station community. I don't want to be blaming anyone for this setup or the flare-ups because I truly don't think it's any single person's fault. It's weird shitty situation we're forced into and I constantly wonder why the hell we keep on like this.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:14 am #61456

why isn't there a group of players who oversee code based changes is that hard to do
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:17 am #61457

That's ostensibly what head coders are for. One part of the problem here is that the non-coder elements of the community have no say in their election or how they keep their positions.

And there is some merit to it being like this, because coding is more complicated than just deciding to do something neat or something balanced. There is a technical aptitude required as well as a work ethic.

There's the potential for dictators and "idea men" to get promoted and entrenched in office because they heap work on everyone else while taking all the credit for their good ideas and direction. If you want to exhaust people and empty out coderbus completely run things like that for a little bit.

EDIT: I don't why I have to be the one making the appeal and the rebuttal all at once but fuck. We lack rational voices for this discussion so I'm stuck getting schizophrenic and arguing with my own damn self here.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby iyaerP » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:17 am #61458

Honestly, I've stopped playing of late, because the changes made are so shitty, and any time feedback is given, we the players get told to suck it up and enjoy the swill we're given. I would honestly rather see the code reverted to how it was at the start of the month and then just frozen in time forever rather than the continual stream of shitty updates that only make the game more miserable to play.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:24 am #61460

An0n3 wrote:That's ostensibly what head coders are for. One part of the problem here is that the non-coder elements of the community have no say in their election or how they keep their positions.

The head coders aren't doing their job, as seen by the community outcry. So, a new change needs to come, then, as nothing will change. On top of that, why are head-coders the ones who would be policing what gets through? They aren't really connected to the playerbase. The Judicial Branch does not keep itself in check. The Executive Branch does not keep itself in check. The Olive Branch Petition does not keep itself in check. And, the players will shut their fucking mouths about this shit if you get players to police the changes because, now, they have only themselves to blame and can lead coders alone and stop this dumb fucking rivalry. Win-win? At least the players vs admins rivalry was funny. This is just heated emotions with zero outcome.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:24 am #61461

iyaerP wrote:Honestly, I've stopped playing of late, because the changes made are so shitty, and any time feedback is given, we the players get told to suck it up and enjoy the swill we're given. I would honestly rather see the code reverted to how it was at the start of the month and then just frozen in time forever rather than the continual stream of shitty updates that only make the game more miserable to play.


That's easy to say but its not all grey and white.

In the last seven days there's been around...

  • 31 Bug Fix PR's
  • 19 Feature PR's

Personally the biggest problem I am seeing currently is that there's no reliable way for the community at large to have their voice mean something, changes with near universal dislike are pushed through for example. Its a big issue.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:33 am #61463

I've always thought HG was on par with Uhangi, in the POS department. I see nothing in his comments to make me think otherwise.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:39 am #61467

At the very least there should be some kind of threshold for the gravity of a potential change at which point it becomes something that needs to be talked over and ruled on before it gets made.

We do this with policy. Lots of little rules get changed and patched on the fly sometimes to little fanfare because they are the rules equivalent of a bugfix. But when we are pondering over something bigger we talk about it first. At the very least we let everyone know it's coming as best we can.

With code this does happen sometimes, when the person putting it all together decides to do the right thing. And sometimes some astute reader will notice something pending or upcoming and blow the whistle on it and head it off before it actually takes form.

But that's the difference, and that's a shitty game for the rest of us to play. Catch the change before it happens, better see it coming down the pipeline and alert everyone to it before it becomes real if you want there to be any rational discussion about it.

I don't like to hear people posting angry shit railing against coders for their changes, but when big things get changed and the only way otherwise people are going to find out is by stumbling across it...you didn't really give people a chance to think it over and respond to it in a way that wasn't emotional.

Falamazeer wrote:I've always thought HG was on par with Uhangi, in the POS department. I see nothing in his comments to make me think otherwise.


HG has the unfortunate position of getting a double helping of shit heaped onto him for being both a headmin and headcoder. Where as I'm the kinda guy to dig in and get salty and start yelling he'll (as you can see above) take what is probably a wiser way out and remove himself from a conversation before it comes to that.

I think it's a symptom of the setup we have. The way things are, the playerbase CANNOT work WITH coders. They can only respond, and in that way work AGAINST coders. And that's a fucking shame. It shouldn't be this adversarial garbage drama shitfest. We should be able to communicate as a community.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:42 am #61468

An0n3 wrote:At the very least there should be some kind of threshold for the gravity of a potential change at which point it becomes something that needs to be talked over and ruled on before it gets made.

We do this with policy. Lots of little rules get changed and patched on the fly sometimes to little fanfare because they are the rules equivalent of a bugfix. But when we are pondering over something bigger we talk about it first. At the very least we let everyone know it's coming as best we can.

With code this does happen sometimes, when the person putting it all together decides to do the right thing. And sometimes some astute reader will notice something pending or upcoming and blow the whistle on it and head it off before it actually takes form.

But that's the difference, and that's a shitty game for the rest of us to play. Catch the change before it happens, better see it coming down the pipeline and alert everyone to it before it becomes real if you want there to be any rational discussion about it.

I don't like to hear people posting angry shit railing against coders for their changes, but when big things get changed and the only way otherwise people are going to find out is by stumbling across it...you didn't really give people a chance to think it over and respond to it in a way that wasn't emotional.

This rift between the community is completely fair and understandable and it's for the most part, coders fault. The community is just acting reactionary and how they feel (which is not always the correct way to react, but at least it's genuine.)
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:43 am #61469

An0n3 wrote:This shouldn't be an us vs them thing. We are one community.

There's a lot of lip service being paid to being an insoluble entity that is apart and disconnected from the /tg/station server but it's largely a load of shit. Where are these other clone servers hiding that are running this same exact code base? If these commits are not being made directly for this station, then who?

What are the bad things that result from "nationalizing" the codebase once and for all?

Is now not a good time to admit that perhaps plunking the berlin wall down between the server and the codebase was perhaps a poor decision, made years ago in a completely different environment from what we have now?

EDIT: I'm not trying to inspire a fucking mutiny here, nor am I trying to paint a picture of coders as some horrible secretive cabal who hates this game and the people who play it. On the contrary they're all pretty good people who get a lot of shit for stuff but I wonder how much of that is a result of the bizarre relationship we have. We could be better communicating this between us if there was not this weird pretense of coderbus being a tiny satellite nation in the midst of the /tg/station community. I don't want to be blaming anyone for this setup or the flare-ups because I truly don't think it's any single person's fault. It's weird shitty situation we're forced into and I constantly wonder why the hell we keep on like this.


Its an us vs them because radically unpopular changes get pushed by people like Paprika and Goofball and nothing ever gets reverted instead we get told we should like the change and that change is always good. Thats not the fucking case.

Polls are done and most people who are vocal on forums and git nearly unanimously are voting against goofchem. Nobody fucking likes it but goofball what with him being a former goon.

It makes chemistry needlessly complicated and no real reward for complication because the chems are weaker than they were before. Medkits also got nerfed and medbay has turned into "Just throw them in cryo"
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:44 am #61470

dezzmont wrote:right now the people on the server you represent have come to an understanding that the coder team essentially hates them.


They don't hate the players dezzmont. They just hate you! :D

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:45 am #61471

Again I don't think it's coders' fault. You can't point at someone who codes for /tg/ and say YOU DID THIS YOU BUTTHOLE.

It's because of the infrastructure, or lack thereof. It's this pretension of separation.

Bombadil wrote:-snip


And it's this. It's okay we get it. They get it. He gets it. You don't have to be so mad at a guy for creating something you don't like. Of course he's going to also get angry and defensive and become that much more reluctant to want to listen anymore.

Come on, this is the same guy that gave us the hilarious DEEP FRIED DEEP FRIED DEEP FRIED DEEP FRIED CEREAL ICE CREAM BANANA. Calm down a minute and listen to yourself.

These guys don't hate the game, they don't hate you, they aren't trying to remove fun. It's just an honest mistake. It's just a game. But it's resulting in a total breakdown of communication and it's driving everyone nuts.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:46 am #61473

An0n3 wrote:This shouldn't be an us vs them thing. We are one community.

There's a lot of lip service being paid to being an insoluble entity that is apart and disconnected from the /tg/station server but it's largely a load of shit. Where are these other clone servers hiding that are running this same exact code base? If these commits are not being made directly for this station, then who?


You're quite clearly disconnected from the views of your other head administrator HG, which is extremely concerning. You're not wrong that the body corporate of coders are part of the tg community, but for the few that matter, Cheridan, Hg and Aran, they're pretty clearly of the view that the two are separate.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:47 am #61475

Just because you've made a few good features does not insulate you against making bad features.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:52 am #61479

If people were just attacking the change and not the person behind it I would agree.

EDIT: ...and that's really the constant problem with every piece of feedback or criticism of code.

Keep in mind code takes time to write. This stuff takes hours of preparation to put together and package up and send off. People do this with the expectation that people will like what they're doing. It's one thing to hear people don't like your baby, and a whole other ordinate level of shit to hear that you're a horrible motherfucker for birthing it in the first place.

This is not a one-sided "Coderbus needs to listen or learn to change to X" but really...

...can you really blame people for not wanting to engage much when shit gets like this all the time?
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:00 am #61483

People can spend months, or even years, drawing art, writing books or making whatever. Only to discover its shit, you can't turn change that.

You'll find few people who won't at least appreciate the effort a coder takes in their work, but we should judge their work not on the quality of their code, or the time they took to code it, but on the quality of the final feature.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:06 am #61487

An0n3 wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:I've always thought HG was on par with Uhangi, in the POS department. I see nothing in his comments to make me think otherwise.


HG has the unfortunate position of getting a double helping of shit heaped onto him for being both a headmin and headcoder.

And? I see no reason why he ever became either, he's rude, abrupt, childish, and back when he was a scrub, he was an asshat, it's like watching flensing climb the ranks.
Utterly bafflingly retarded.

Uhangi thought he could posses doors and shit on security every round ever because he thought he was an untouchable coder, and he was right, I think the coders get too much weight sometimes, a good coder does not make a good admin and yet they are admins whether they keep their peas and carrots separate or not.

The excuse that he gets a double heap of shit carries no weight with me, I wish I could link the old forums for his shenanigans, but the last guy who had an excuse to be hated and be fine with it (errorage DEY TUK MAH GLURVES!) turned the forum into a canadian pharmacy!
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:14 am #61491

What I would propose as a resolution to this mess, once and for all:

1) Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose. Bring it in from the cold.

2) Hold elections for headcoders like we do for headadmins. Have a coder elected head, an admin elected head, and a player elected head.

3) Appoint coders to watch over the feedback section of the forums and treat topics and posts in that subforum with the same gravity that we do FNR. Stomp out shitposting and name calling. If people cannot construct their criticisms with the same maturity and urgency-of-topic that we expect in FNR than throw it out.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:19 am #61493

The personal attacks in the feedback forums is real awful.
Edit: And on the flip side, coders/other going out of their way to act like arrogant cunts to people knowing full well that it's just going to stir shit, is even worse.

Some coders act like shitters/have a history of being dongs/pushing through shit people don't like or whatever, but attacking them over that, in a feedback thread for a specific change/PR is dumb and counterproductive. Leave it to a seperate thread (something like an admin feedback thread) and then you can link to specific feedback threads where they have been shitty blah blah blah. Keep it seperate.

That said, when HG, a headmin/coder outright says 'server and coderbase seperation are absolute', it's pretty fucking shitty.
Also there is no reason to suggest improvements, when you are specifically asking for an outright revert.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:25 am #61495

"If people cannot construct their criticisms with the same maturity and urgency-of-topic that we expect in FNR than throw it out"
Last time you guys did this to clean up the forums, I got banned for arguing the bullshit with mario, and told to play a flash game for children until I beat it, because I dared to disagree.
That sounds like bullshit, And I wish it were. XSI did it.

It is us vs them, we are us, and you are them.

"If people were just attacking the change and not the person behind it I would agree."
This is what I mean, when you invalidate someones argument, you don't even seem to realize you are doing it, Now if I'd just "HG IS A FAGIT GET REKT 420 JOEBIDEN NOSCOPE HOTDOG!"
Yeah, that'd be stupid and wrong, but Your taking an actual valid gripe, and ignoring it, He grinds his jackboots and declares autonomy from our petty complaints.

I don't have to hate the code to hate the coder, I liked a lot of uhangis changes, Even ones that didn't stick around forever, But the guy was a shitlord, and HG saying shit like that makes him one too.
Being called a shitlord hurts, but just defying the comment, or ignoring it, or deciding we're all a bunch of raving petty bitchers doesn't negate that most of you brought that extra large, or small dose of shit on your own heads with behaviors like these.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:32 am #61499

I was a forum admin for quite some time on the Erro forums at SS13.eu and I have to say based on my experiences reading and attempting to moderate that conversation (when I was already elbow-deep in trying to change FNR) that any negativity towards the playerbase as a result of that exchange is practically entirely the fault of the playerbase itself.

When a large amount of your feedback is "Fuck you you're Hitler why do you hate us and hate this game so much?" I can't fathom how anyone can be expected to eat that shit with a smile and apologize.

Part of bringing coderbus in, once and for all, is putting the rest of us up to bat for it.

If I had to guess (and it is a guess) the biggest reason for coderbus to want to stay autonomous is out of fear of having to engage with the playerbase again on a regular and committed basis.

Falamazeer wrote:It is us vs them, we are us, and you are them.


I'm not really on any side here. Nothing I'm talking about or suggesting has anything to do with my position as an admin/headmin. I would say even beyond my funtimes runaround here as a player, I'm saying these things as just a human being seeing a bunch of other people trying to have fun and create a fun game and stumbling over bad bureaucracy and getting in dumb senseless fights with eachother for it. For years now this has been going on. And it'll keep happening if we don't change something. I could be completely wrong but if we don't talk about it and suggest things nothing will ever get better.

I have zero authority over coderbus and no institutional power to enforce any idea I might come up with. I am as any other player in this thread just trying to propose an idea of something better.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:45 am #61500

An0n3 wrote:When a large amount of your feedback is "Fuck you you're Hitler why do you hate us and hate this game so much?" I can't fathom how anyone can be expected to eat that shit with a smile and apologize.

You're using the "fuck you you're hitler" to justify ignoring or even deleting complaints that are justified.
Nobody likes what HG just said, HG isn't retarded, he knew that would not win him any friends, and he said it anyways, why? because fuck you, that's why.
Deal with it, shades from the sky, mic drop motherfucker.

So yeah, I feel completely justified using words like gestappo, jackboots, hitler, and eat shit and die inside.


These are the attitudes displayed that keep you mired in shit up to you knees, and I'm saying it as logically and kindly as I feel is appropriate to tell you that while that shit is from the playerbase, we're not flinging randomly out of spite. The schism is real, and the divide is not one sided, Being called a shitlord does not absolve you of the responsibility of trying to not be a shitlord.

And with that, I think I made my case as much as one can, tl;dr Ignoring ALL complaints thrown at your feet because a lot are baseless doesn't mean you aren't complaintworthy.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:51 am #61503

I know what you mean and I understand how you feel but if that's your perspective than you might be a bit late to the cavalcade of shittalking and name-calling. There's a grudge that's been built up on both sides of the argument for a long time. In a way every other asshole who ever told someone to eat shit handed over enough reason for everyone else to ignore you the moment you walked in the room. When someone is telling you to fuck off they're also telling a long line of people who came before you to fuck off as well.

I'm not saying you deserve that, I'm saying that's the survival mechanism that's been ingrained on this communication.

We need a change and a fresh start.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:52 am #61504

An0n3 wrote:I was a forum admin for quite some time on the Erro forums at SS13.eu and I have to say based on my experiences reading and attempting to moderate that conversation (when I was already elbow-deep in trying to change FNR) that any negativity towards the playerbase as a result of that exchange is practically entirely the fault of the playerbase itself.

When a large amount of your feedback is "Fuck you you're Hitler why do you hate us and hate this game so much?" I can't fathom how anyone can be expected to eat that shit with a smile and apologize.

Part of bringing coderbus in, once and for all, is putting the rest of us up to bat for it.

If I had to guess (and it is a guess) the biggest reason for coderbus to want to stay autonomous is out of fear of having to engage with the playerbase again on a regular and committed basis.

It takes a special kind of mentality to be afraid of the fallout of changes you wish to push onto a group but to feel satisfied throwing them over a fence and pretending all is well when you hear the screams.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:55 am #61507

cedarbridge wrote:It takes a special kind of mentality to be afraid of the fallout of changes you wish to push onto a group but to feel satisfied throwing them over a fence and pretending all is well when you hear the screams.


Coders aren't purposely throwing lit bundles of dynamite over a barricade and plugging their ears with a grin while shit just explodes on the other side.

You must have some idea, as an admin, what it can feel like when you make a mistake and suddenly everyone is running around burning you in effigy.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:59 am #61508

An0n3 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:It takes a special kind of mentality to be afraid of the fallout of changes you wish to push onto a group but to feel satisfied throwing them over a fence and pretending all is well when you hear the screams.


Coders aren't purposely throwing lit bundles of dynamite over a barricade and plugging their ears with a grin while shit just explodes on the other side.

When HG makes it seem like and actively propagates such things, then yes, that's what it does seem like.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Loonikus » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:59 am #61510

Its a little of column A and a little of Column B.

On one hand, a lot of players are fucking brainless idiots who sperg out the moment they see something unfamiliar or different. As soon as they see something new they will froth at the mouths and tear away at it due to their tiny animal brains perceiving it only as a threat to their delicious greentext/valids.

On the other hand, "coderbus" (whatever the fuck that is. Why /tg/ coders need to have their own little clubhouse still escapes me to this day) has more than its fair share of autistic egomaniacs circle jerking in their INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower who simply say "Let them eat cake" to players shortly before nerfing cake.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:01 am #61512

Someone with such blatant disregard of the community shouldn't be allowed any position of power, whether that power be over the players (administration), the code (ANY form of developer) or both. The code exists for the players, not vice-versa, without the players to enjoy it the code is a mess of spaghetti values that nobody wants to use. Period.

You lot are reading far too deeply into a very simple issue: the divide is there and it's there only because of people like HG who seem to think they're above and beyond the community because they write shitty code and fellate themselves to 'fixing' a game they hardly play. The server requires manually updating every time the code is changed - which needs to go through SoS - so to that effect, the update should only be committed to the server if the community agrees to it. Simple.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:11 am #61515

An0n3 wrote:a bit late

Been here since tle uterus, so no, I'm aware, it's been a growing problem.
And yeah, I'd rather be helpful than right.

My point being that comments like that one are far from helpful, and it'd be easier to get the limited members of coderbus to at least give lip service to being civil, than to try to make the understandably frustrated hoarde not fling poo justified or not.

An0n3 wrote:a mistake

Controversial game changes sometimes have to be made, Which is why I was on errorages side for the GLUUUUUURVES! indecent, but there is a difference between changing something in an unpopular way because you feel it will benefit the game long term, And delivering a unpopular change while waggling your ass at those you offended at the same time.

The schism may have started with the playerbase going full retard for a while, but now it's a self feeding fire, Feuled by a blatant disregard for the playerbase's opinion, so yeah, it's a cycle of shit flinging, Coders shit from a mountain on high and roll it to the players, and players fling it back as best they can, and meanwhile we're all standing in and covered in shit.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:18 am #61517

420goslingboy69 wrote:
An0n3 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:It takes a special kind of mentality to be afraid of the fallout of changes you wish to push onto a group but to feel satisfied throwing them over a fence and pretending all is well when you hear the screams.


Coders aren't purposely throwing lit bundles of dynamite over a barricade and plugging their ears with a grin while shit just explodes on the other side.

When HG makes it seem like and actively propagates such things, then yes, that's what it does seem like.


While he is a headcoder I don't think he speaks for every coder any more than anything I say here speaks for every admin.

Your feelings about him are between the two of you.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby soulgamer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:24 am #61518

How would one go about setting up a vote or at least a thread for a removal for a headmin. Which board would you post it on? Because with HG in charge of the code and him refusing to listen to honest complaints about the system I, and I believe there are many like me, dont feel comfortable with him being a headmin. He puts coderbus over players and feel that this is a conflict of interest he cannot be trusted to handle.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:31 am #61521

There's no precedent for that. No headmin has ever been "impeached" or has there ever been a process invented to facilitate that.

I don't personally think his dual role as a headcoder has affected his ability to perform his role as a headmin in the slightest but if you're really certain about that you should probably talk to SoS, talk to HG himself, or make some kind of thread in admin complaints or policy?

I really honestly don't know. We'd be making it up as we go along.

Again I don't see how his conduct regarding the codebase as the headcoder reflects on his duties or position as a headadmin. They're two normally seperate things he just happens to be a part of both. You're trying to punish him in one court for misgivings you have with his conduct in the other.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:41 am #61524

An0n3 wrote:
420goslingboy69 wrote:
An0n3 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:It takes a special kind of mentality to be afraid of the fallout of changes you wish to push onto a group but to feel satisfied throwing them over a fence and pretending all is well when you hear the screams.


Coders aren't purposely throwing lit bundles of dynamite over a barricade and plugging their ears with a grin while shit just explodes on the other side.

When HG makes it seem like and actively propagates such things, then yes, that's what it does seem like.


While he is a headcoder I don't think he speaks for every coder any more than anything I say here speaks for every admin.

Your feelings about him are between the two of you.

I have no feelings between HG. He actively acts like an asshole and thinks it's funny. Everyone knows this, you fucking know this.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby soulgamer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:49 am #61525

An0n3 wrote:There's no precedent for that. No headmin has ever been "impeached" or has there ever been a process invented to facilitate that.

I don't personally think his dual role as a headcoder has affected his ability to perform his role as a headmin in the slightest but if you're really certain about that you should probably talk to SoS, talk to HG himself, or make some kind of thread in admin complaints or policy?

I really honestly don't know. We'd be making it up as we go along.

Again I don't see how his conduct regarding the codebase as the headcoder reflects on his duties or position as a headadmin. They're two normally seperate things he just happens to be a part of both. You're trying to punish him in one court for misgivings you have with his conduct in the other.

Anon I dont agree with half of what you say. However you are available to talk to. You take the time to at least talk to the players. You are the ONLY voice we see from the headmins short of HG randomly showing up dropping a very short and usually pissy post and vanishing again. His lack of availablity, seemingly lack of care, and all around poor attitude makes me not want him to have power.

If he was a senator and the grand wizard of the KKK would you not expect one of those roles to heavily influence the other.
Spoiler:
Like it or not the coders have completely lost the trust and goodwill of the majority of the players. This has not and will never be addressed under HG as we see in this thread. That fucking attitude right there is enough character witness to make me distrust him as an admin

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