Lack of player input on changes

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Turtle_unit
 
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Turtle_unit » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:09 am #61748

Violaceus wrote:
Turtle_unit wrote:I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.


Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now

Nah its more like i seen all kinds of huge drama before on this server. Last time when we switched hosts was a chanche to revive the station but it got even worse somehow.



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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby lumipharon » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:13 am #61750

Violaceus wrote:
Turtle_unit wrote:I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.


Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now


When that leak is sewerage spraying you in the face everytime you walk into the bathroom, some people can get pretty salty.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Timbrewolf » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:16 am #61751

Sewerage doesn't even play here anymore.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby paprika » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:24 am #61755

>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Snakebutt » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:42 am #61761

Pennwick wrote:snip this commit Snip

Jesus fucking christ. Nanomeds are not supposed to be stationary medkits, they're a tool vendor for doctors. And if I'm not mistaken, wallmeds now have mobile crew monitors. Those things are already broken as fuck for antags finding targets, now anyone can have one?

And he adminned himself? Is this guy blowing someone to get his stuff committed?

I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times. Oversight and accountability. EVERY PR needs to be vetted, EVERY coder needs to be held accountable for being a shit, or we get a group of people who think they are cargonians OUTSIDE of the game.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby miggles » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:03 am #61772

i feel that if NTstation had survived longer and wasnt forced to be a competitor with coderbus, it could have been great
nevermind, though, that it was run by 3 people, 2 of which (including myself) were very novice coders and one of which is now a maintainer on tg itself
i still strongly believe that a direct democratic system for the codebase would make it much better for everyone involved and prevent the issue of forcing shitty changes onto a majority who does not want them.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:21 am #61804

Snakebutt wrote:And he adminned himself? Is this guy blowing someone to get his stuff committed?


The admin.txt in on the github is not used on the game servers.

Coders add themselves to it if they plan on doing a lot of coding so that they don't have to keep re-adding themselves to their local test servers every time they re-download the code base to get the updated code from the other PRs
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Tsaricide » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:02 am #61809

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players


tg has been getting 100+ rounds for years now hg really has nothing to do with that. It all depends on the time of the day/year/where the server is advertised.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:12 am #61811

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby WeeYakk » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:22 am #61812

Tsaricide wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players


tg has been getting 100+ rounds for years now hg really has nothing to do with that. It all depends on the time of the day/year/where the server is advertised.


It's also that this game has more than quintupled in total players. If we go by players = good code as a metric then hippie, yog, and paradise are bees knees right now with 20-30 more players each.

"b-but muh public server listing!" /tg/ is advertised everywhere on top of other servers using our wiki and having buttons in-game that will link you to /tg/'s various sites. The server itself is not a well kept secret and the recent influx of BRs shows that not being on the public server list doesn't keep anyone out. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Pennwick » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:28 am #61814

MrStonedOne wrote:The admin.txt in on the github is not used on the game servers.

Coders add themselves to it if they plan on doing a lot of coding so that they don't have to keep re-adding themselves to their local test servers every time they re-download the code base to get the updated code from the other PRs


My mistake. I was unaware of how it worked. I removed that comment from my post. I didn't mean to incite anything over a false fact. The rest of my point still stands that this PR got merged much more quickly despite how it seems to be poorly documented what it does.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby lumipharon » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:51 am #61819

PR's with undocumented changes is actually a pretty major problem. I don't think (or atleast hope) coders don't do it intentionally, but evenwhen they just forget, it means things get merged without being detected or even known.
You can't expect people to scan all the code changes of every pr to look for undocumented changes.

An example of this was pap's stun overhaul. Looking at the code I saw a few odd things that didnt seem to be in the description/incorrect, namely that the e-bow got a 50% damage buff, an had I think 9 range instead of 7, and that (I think) the gyrojet got range limited also.
Not saying these were bad, simply that they weren't noticed by practically anyone.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:29 am #61822

lumipharon wrote:PR's with undocumented changes is actually a pretty major problem. I don't think (or atleast hope) coders don't do it intentionally, but evenwhen they just forget, it means things get merged without being detected or even known.
You can't expect people to scan all the code changes of every pr to look for undocumented changes.

An example of this was pap's stun overhaul. Looking at the code I saw a few odd things that didnt seem to be in the description/incorrect, namely that the e-bow got a 50% damage buff, an had I think 9 range instead of 7, and that (I think) the gyrojet got range limited also.
Not saying these were bad, simply that they weren't noticed by practically anyone.

>Nerfs gyrojet
>A gun that only exists in wizard round


I MEAN REALLY PAP?
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby mikecari » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:48 am #61825

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Nice usage of strawman. You're literally the most one dimensional person I've ever seen. Are you still trying to blow HG so that you can become a maintainer?

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby RG4 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:53 am #61828

paprika wrote:Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

The last time I commented heavily of a feature was when Mr.Person rolled out his Space Update. A near unanimous proclamation from the players outwardly hating the fact he nerfed space to the extent that it absolutely killed off an area from standard play from how bad it was. Despite all of it, he outwardly refused to change the movement speed back to originally what it was. As far as I know it still is in a terrible shape, from my POV it showed Mr.Person didn't care for what the players were saying or wanting, so yes you can say that some of the coders will no give a fuck about the players opinions on matters like that.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby paprika » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:19 am #61833

Then change it yourself

Didn't oranges like make a PR to revert most of the speed nerfs in space, and wasn't it accepted?

Jesus, this is how open source works. My PRs have NO MORE priority than anyone else's.

Hating on coders in an open source game because they don't do what you want is literally, and I mean literally, the dumbest thing you can do in this game. I make changes that I want to make. I don't work for the playerbase of /tg/. I have used feedback from the players on tons of my PRs to change them down the road or before they're even accepted.

And no, this isn't just me. Sure there's coders who only code what people want 100% of the time. But I code for fun to contribute to the codebase, that's it. Hornygranny has no bias towards me, and I barely fucking talk to him. It's honestly the biggest joke in #coderbus, players having these conspiracy theories about this shit. I'm pretty sure hornygranny and company don't necessarily care for goofball, but his chem PR got accepted. GEE, MUST BE CONSPIRACY, MUST BE HORNYGRANNY'S LITTLE BITCH, GOOD GOING GOOFBALL YOU DICKSUCKER!!!

Or maybe people who make PRs with code that work get accepted. If there's a conflict (see: my PR and ergo's) there's sometimes decisions to be made at a maintainer or headcoder level when it comes to figuring out which one will get accepted, but those are pretty rare.

Really though, if you don't like it, leave. To baystation, or /vg/station, WHICH HAVE LESS CONTRIBUTORS, ARE USUALLY CLOSED SOURCE, AND EVEN LESS OF A CHANCE OF YOUR OPINION ON FEATURES BEING HEARD.

I don't care for server warring but other servers are absolutely dog shit compared to /tg/. I used to think /tg/ was stupid and the coders were nazis but then I started coding. LOOK HOW MUCH SHIT SOMEONE WHO HAS BARELY CODED BEFORE SS13 HAS DONE. FUCKING DO SOMETHING IF YOU WANT THINGS CHANGED. JOIN THE GITHUB. GET INVOVLED. IT'S NOT ESPECIALLY HARD.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:53 am #61848

Violaceus wrote:
Turtle_unit wrote:I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.


Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now

Seeing something bad is sad. Seeing the bad thing accepted as "just how it is" by others is depressing.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Loonikus » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:00 am #61852

I have a question.

Whats the point of head coders in an open source project? What role do they fill that would not be better filled by a simple voting system of "gud change" or "bad change"?

In an ideal system, there would only be two kinds of people who code for /tg/code: Coders and Maintainers. Coders write code, and maintainers ensure the code meets quality standards AND HOLD IT TO NO OTHER STANDARDS ASIDE FROM THE OBJECTIVE QUALITY OF THE CODE. The coders code it, the maintainers greenlight it, and the code gets its own forum/github/in-game/whatever poll on whether to merge it or not. If the majority of voters vote yes, GG merge he posthaste. If no, its back to the drawing board. The host has veto power over all votes.

There, I just solved all coderbus drama forever. People who actually push good, new features or actually fix a fucking bug once in a while like Pennwick would have no problem pushing their stuff because its not shit. Meanwhile, people who want to make MASSIVE SWEEPING CHANGES will actually have to think carefully about what they are doing and somehow explain to people why this is a good idea without sperging out instead of cramming half baked ideas down everyones throat.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby WeeYakk » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:37 am #61884

paprika wrote:Then change it yourself

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6793
Tries to revert dirtstation and gets closed for being a revert.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5470
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5475
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5511
All trying to revert the dermal patch removal.
HG on git wrote:We're not accepting "revert" PRs for this change.


https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6954
Changes get reverted or put on hold because another coder is working on them. There are worse examples of this in particular but that's like 2 pages of skimmed search results. I'm not gonna bother linking anymore of this PROOF.PNG

So using the very unpopular goonchem as an example you have to learn how git works, learn how to code, go through and put everything connected to goonchem code (virus symptoms, genetics, cult runes for some reason apparently, etc) and make it connected to trek chem, all after waiting for goofball and co to finish their chem changes because your changes would interfere too much which piles even more work on a very inexperienced coder.

It's not as easy as "just change it".

paprika wrote:Didn't oranges like make a PR to revert most of the speed nerfs in space, and wasn't it accepted?

Space speed was unintentional. MrPerson even gave the changes his blessing in the PR. (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6159)
Had they been an intentional change this would have never been merged for being too much of a kneejerk revert. This incident does highlight another problem with coders though: no one is held responsible for the problems their code causes.

paprika wrote:Really though, if you don't like it, leave. To baystation, or /vg/station, WHICH HAVE LESS CONTRIBUTORS, ARE USUALLY CLOSED SOURCE, AND EVEN LESS OF A CHANCE OF YOUR OPINION ON FEATURES BEING HEARD.


With the exception of less contributors, which isn't a bad thing, the opposite is true for all of those things you listed.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby paprika » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:27 am #61890

security sprite changes were a conflict between me and steelpoint, and cheridan said that invisible armor is crap. they reverts were butthurt flinch revert prs which are automatically closed. if a revert pr for goon chem was put up right now, it wouldn't be closed.

i'm sure quilty and goofball would complain a lot though.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Perakp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:07 am #61892

WeeYakk wrote:This incident does highlight another problem with coders though: no one is held responsible for the problems their code causes.


If you break something, and especially if you refuse to fix it afterwards, your future pull requests will be reviewed more closely. This is kinda a punishment since you'll have more conflicts to fix when your code eventually passes. Atleast I think this is what happens, although no maintainer will come up to you and say your code is being controlled more closely because of something you did previously, so you're never really sure what is going on. But it's completely understandable and fair for them to be more careful with you, and complaining that your pull request has been sitting there for x days now probably won't make it more likely to pass any sooner.
If you fail repeatedly you usually get off with a warning. I don't remember anyone who would've been banned solely because of their code contributions, it's always a mix of bad code + bad attitude that might get you banned.

On "obvious" problems that pass the review process; it is definitely a policy decision to keep game breaking/ unfinished changes in the game instead of reverting and asking for a new pull request when your work is more polished. But it's just so much more fun to have the whole community experience your bugs and playtest for you that a test server just wouldn't be the same.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby callanrockslol » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:14 pm #61919

Lets just not pretend that there is going to be a decent ending with HG not trying to outdo Creed. At this point we really need to discuss just how much influence coderbus should have on the server. Personally I think there shouldn't be here if they don't want to be.

HG should be removed from headmin and any coder that is an admin with them.



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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Miauw » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:08 pm #61959

Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

miggles wrote:i still strongly believe that a direct democratic system for the codebase would make it much better for everyone involved and prevent the issue of forcing shitty changes onto a majority who does not want them.

it would just make sure that the 5% of people who play that actually go on the forums can vote against anything they don't like the sound of and prevent anything from being done ever again.
a lot of people like runspeed now, but with a direct democracy it would not have gotten in and there would still have been bullshit yakkety sax. (and probably dozens of other crutch changes)
there's already too much politicking involved in this game, let's please not make it any worse.
if you're going to suggest that players elect headcoders, please refer to the last time that was brought up and my arguments in the thread, which are basically "that would get shitcoders who only make features elected rather than goodcoders that fix bugs and refactor shit and doesnt afraid of anything".

also fyi i'm apparently an admin on the server but i'm never going to use that except for debugging because i'm sure i'd get caught in some sort of dumb drama-filled admin complaint thread.

also i sort of agree with callan for once.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:18 pm #61964

Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.


I never said hornygranny was killing coderbase.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby ColonicAcid » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:19 pm #61965

Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

Where did he suggest that?


I'll take more assumptions at 10.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:38 pm #61980

ColonicAcid wrote:
Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

Where did he suggest that?


I'll take more assumptions at 10.



The coders must defend their god even from no one attacking him. Most are attacking Paprika and goofball anyway. Most are pissed HG is saying coderbus and tg are seperate entities
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Miauw » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:55 pm #61988

i ment server, my bad.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Jacquerel » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:07 pm #61993

It's still irrelevant Miauw, Bombadil was saying that Paprka's claims were bullshit, not trying to argue the most extreme opposite.
At no point in this thread has Bombadil claimed that Hornygranny was killing the codebase, the server, the playerbase, the president, this fine nation of the united states of america, or anything else.

He was rebutting the post he directly quoted and replied to.
As much as I hate when people just start throwing around the names of logical fallacies, your posts are just coming off as the most blatant and unconvincing textbook strawman argument. It might be because they actually are, or merely just because for some reason you've misread his posts in an extreme manner, but you should probably try and stop doing it if you want to be taken seriously.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Miauw » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:20 pm #62001

oh ffs i somehow thought that bombadil and turtle_unit were the same person.
my bad, i was being a huge dumbass.
it's hard to keep track of people without avatars in a huge shitstorm like this.
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Loonikus » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:31 pm #62003

I think we're all getting a little too worked up with all this. Lets just take a minute and get back to the topic of the thread: a "lack" of player feedback.

I have an idea. An actual idea that can actually be implemented and would actually help fix this problem. Simply add an in-game poll that has three checkmarks: The game is getting better or The game is getting worse or The games quality remains consistent. The poll is closed and reset after every server update. The poll opens back up five rounds after every update to ensure players actually experience changes before voting. Votes can be changes so long as the poll is open in case players change their mind.

By using this system, we could chart the popularity of each update at a basic level. This is basic feedback that every player would have access to. If people want to suggest alternatives or give more detailed feedback, thats what the forum is for. At least this way we could get an idea of where each update stands.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Snakebutt » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:55 pm #62020

Only problem is no one seems to pay attention to polls either. If we got a 75% dislike on an update and it HAS to be reverted, that would be something. As we've seen on the forums, polls do nothing, see: Secsprite, goonchem

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Scones » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:02 pm #62023

So what still eludes me is that HG is delusional enough to REALLY honestly think that Coderbus is a 100% seperate entity from /tg/station

The vast majority of contributors are /tg/station players who contribute because they want these things on /tg/station

iirc headcoder is a player elect role voted for... Where?

It's fucking stupid and people like HG need to realize that if we were to make our own branch STATED to be specifically for /tg/ and announce we would no longer be using the bus version, literally everyone would flock to the new one without a second thought.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Bombadil » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:19 pm #62028

Cecily wrote:So what still eludes me is that HG is delusional enough to REALLY honestly think that Coderbus is a 100% seperate entity from /tg/station

The vast majority of contributors are /tg/station players who contribute because they want these things on /tg/station

iirc headcoder is a player elect role voted for... Where?

It's fucking stupid and people like HG need to realize that if we were to make our own branch STATED to be specifically for /tg/ and announce we would no longer be using the bus version, literally everyone would flock to the new one without a second thought.



Hell if tehy are seperate entities we should remove HG's headmin status what with HG being a head coder it results in a conflict of interest after all the code they are making is supposed to be for all servers. HG beinga headmin causes a conflict of interest where HG may work to code stuff for /tg/ station more than other servers. So i think we should deheadmin HG and make sure coderbus is a seperate entity you know because that's what HG says is the truth
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Loonikus » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:37 pm #62032

Snakebutt wrote:Only problem is no one seems to pay attention to polls either. If we got a 75% dislike on an update and it HAS to be reverted, that would be something. As we've seen on the forums, polls do nothing, see: Secsprite, goonchem


And thus the issue comes full circle. Coders want more feedback it seems, but the only coders who ultimately matter when it comes to major changes don't care about feedback no matter what form it comes in.

Which leaves us here, with everyone venting their frustration because we are told to both leave our feedback and that our feedback is wrong.

I say a verbal roundtable is in order, but I also think the path forward is clear. The whole github and coderbus system could be much smoother, but the people in charge of it are obviously becoming a greater liability to the project than an asset. I think some of our current headcoders would do much better outside of an administrative role.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Miauw » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:46 pm #62035

headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.
polls are shit feedback, because they only tell you "this sucks" instead of what is wrong with it and anyway, only a small amount of the players ever goes to the forums.
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Snakebutt » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:53 pm #62039

Just look at the goonchem feedback thread. Plenty of actual worded feedback on top of 'This is bad and you should feel bad', and the approval rating on par with the last 3 presidents. Polls are a decent way to get the broad opinion of a large population, the forum is a good way to get specific grievances and detailed feedback. It's just too bad the coders disregard 90% of it apart from the mentions of bugs.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby AnonymousNow » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:56 pm #62040

And oh my god, how are we supposed to get anything changed if we don't like it if the terms start at "more feedback" and the goalposts keep moving around places we've already covered, eventually to find somewhere off the field we can't reach?
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.


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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby 420weedscopes » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:13 pm #62043

Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.

please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby soulgamer » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:16 pm #62044

Miauw wrote:headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.
polls are shit feedback, because they only tell you "this sucks" instead of what is wrong with it and anyway, only a small amount of the players ever goes to the forums.

>Only a small amount of players goes to the forums
>HG and other coders tell us to go to github where even less people go
So we can go there explain our points and get told our opinions dont matter because "we dont represent enough players"? Seriously what do you want from us? Stick up a fucking lobby poll and see how unpopular this fucking change is. Oh wait only coders can really do that and the coders don't want to interfere...

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Loonikus » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:27 pm #62046

Miauw wrote:headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.


Loonikus wrote:And thus the issue comes full circle. Coders want more feedback it seems, but the only coders who ultimately matter when it comes to major changes don't care about feedback no matter what form it comes in.


Head coders don't decide everything, just the things that effect players the most. This gives them a proportional amount of importance which in turn puts them under a proportional amount of scrutiny.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby ColonicAcid » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:38 pm #62051

420weedscopes wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.

please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.

You don't need to be as the coders keep spouting out over and over again.
Good to see that atleast they can keep that much of their word.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby dezzmont » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:59 pm #62055

420weedscopes wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.

please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.

He explicitly doesn't do so because he finds the enviroment toxic as shit and hates everything about being there.

PostThis post was deleted by Bombadil on Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:30 pm.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby iyaerP » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:47 pm #62086

Further proof that Steelpoint > coderbus.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Jalleo » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:09 am #62108

I am literally only going to say these things then be out.
The amount of people coding and PRing for tg has gone higher than ever. Some just pure bugfix.
We as a whole tg group (there is no such thing as seperate coders just them primarily workingon the edge) are accelerating more and more we have done great things at making the game faster and do more interesting things in our own way.
Everyone plays this game differently but when some people claim beepsky smash was a part of goonchem I see how we are still at the same place a few years ago.

This entire mess of a feedback is due to the ease of discussion for actual coding on IRC and the ease of non coders to discuss in depth stuff on the forums. Just stop get a irc client and lurk on #coderbus for a few weeks listening to how everyone there tries to make the game better their OWN way. We have gone in a cycle of coder conspiracy talk to admin conspiracy talk to the former again. Sorry to break it to you but a group of people who work together need a leader. OUR true overlord is SoS. HG just tries to help make sure we got enough prs getting merged. There used to be worries about 30 prs open. Its now getting to 60. At least 333 PRs got merged this month alone.

The true issue is not this its that soon we may have a burn out of maintainers merging PRs. We are heading somewhere of ehich github will become as non optimal to us as SVN did. The interaction is starting to break down slowly yet dramatically. There is nothing more to say.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby Alex Crimson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:21 am #62116

Asking people to join IRC is fucking terrible. You think people who play SS13 all have the time to spend sitting in a chatroom reading logs just to keep up-to-date on a game they play? Unless IRC has some amazing new archive system since the last time i used it, i think its better to keep discussion on the forum or github.

Yeah IRC is great for realtime chatting, but not for keeping logs of discussion or planning the future of the game.

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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby paprika » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:41 am #62121

Coders who don't join #coderbus then complain are literally the biggest of crybabies.

I mean, if I can deal with oranges, you can too.
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Re: Lack of player input on changes

Postby AnonymousNow » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:00 am #62126

I dunno... I feel like we're told to post more on the forums, and then when we're doing that, we're told to post more on the Git, and then when some of us are on the Git commenting on PRs (and occasionally getting said comments wiped), we're told to go to the place which has had a reputation of being a clubhouse during the entire time I've been here...
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.


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~Simplified for the sake of Wyzack's delicate feelings~
Fuck anti-roleplay suggestions and fuck Bay.

Xenomorphs a shit.

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