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Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:20 am
by PKPenguin321
I keep seeing shit like this what with there being some discussion of stuns lately:
Image
And what bugs me about this is that it assumes that "potential fights" that occur within melee range is an inherently good thing, which is capital B Bullshit. Pure hit-on-hit raw damage melee combat is fundamentally not fun unless you're severely contrarian. This is not a new idea and has been joked about for actual years with a perpetual tongue-in-cheek attitude ("heh, i clicked that guy until he went sideways, im so good at this game"). Melee fights fucking suck! Having to click on your opponents sprite directly 20 times while you both spaz out like horny fruitflies running in random directions isn't fun. Getting donked over the head exactly twice and then suddenly you move significantly slower because our slowdown works in tiers instead of just directly scaling to health sucks. What makes combat actually interesting is every mechanic that isn't "click on this guy until he falls down."

SS14 has acknowledged this and now uses a new system where clicking in a direction makes you fire off an entity that sweeps like a baseball bat or jabs forward like a spear, and that's actually kind of cool because it is in and of itself a mechanic that you can get good at and play around. The SS13 system, meanwhile, has basically no skill floor or ceiling. It's quite literally just walking in pretty much random directions and clicking as fast as you possibly can (or just having something set up that toggles an autoclicker). Miss a click? Doesn't matter, if you don't attack anything then you don't receive any click cooldown, so continue spamming away until you get a hit. Even just adding a cooldown to missed swings would make it infinitely more interesting, because presently the amount of interestingness it has in abstract units is 0.

Were stuns bad design? Maybe, maybe not, but I would rather get stunned and die and have the fight be over in 10 seconds than get fucking carpal tunnel syndrome while I flail wildly at some asshole who is forced to do the same back to me for five minutes. This is also part of why I fucking hate knockdown replacing actual stuns, because getting knocked down doesn't mean jack fucking shit, if you get knocked down your plan doesn't change at all. You STILL just keep spamming your left click even if you get knocked down. That's all you do and that's all it will be until something fundamentally changes.

Discussion I'd like to seen't: "I'm a huge contrarian and actually I like having carpal tunnel, I win, bye bye"
Discussion I'd like to see: "Maybe if we did X then melee combat would be fundamentally more interesting."

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:12 am
by Armhulen
Big agree. This isn't about stuns, this is about stupid click combat. Swinging, swing recharge times, and swing sizes, jabs, jab ranges, and jab recharges, these 6 variables applied to each weapon would already be a massive improvement to making melee combat more interesting AND make every weapon a hell of a lot more unique

Edit: maybe I'll even try mocking up my idea in code of how this should work, but i'm not enthusiastic about making the entire swing jab system alone

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:38 am
by NecromancerAnne
Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:07 am
by terranaut
The possibility of hard disabling someone with the click of a button is what added paranoia to the game but every pr that touches on combat seeks to make it more fair and balanced and accessible to all parties, and then for some reason people are surprised and even upset people take to valid hunting. You'd never try to valid hunt a Ling with parasting because you know you'd eat shit and if someone tried to get too close to you one too many times you'd be scared, rightfully so.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 pm
by NecromancerAnne
Killing people is dead easy that you don't even need one clicks. It isnt better or more paranoia driven, you just need to get gud.

More importantly, having experienced paralings in the form of fulps bloodsuckers, I can assure you that this changed nothing and the only thing vamps did with their parasting was murderbone with their onetap and kill everyone who fought them by using their onetap. To think this isn't how things will go is ridiculous, since that is how combat is still defined even now as the remaining onetap victory tools are all that is used. A quick observation of terry and bagil is all you truly need to see what I mean.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:15 pm
by PKPenguin321
NecromancerAnne wrote:Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

SS14 which I am too lazy to boot up currently literally has a grey entity that fires off and can swing or jab forward, here is my epic artists rendition + cool ideas
Spoiler:
Image

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:16 pm
by Sheodir
PKPenguin321 wrote:
NecromancerAnne wrote:Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

SS14 which I am too lazy to boot up currently literally has a grey entity that fires off and can swing or jab forward, here is my epic artists rendition + cool ideas
Spoiler:
Image

Is this doable in BYOND in any way though

I ask this earnestly I'm illiterate in the ways of the bizarro code

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:18 pm
by PKPenguin321
considering we have pixel projectiles that work basically in the same way (they proc a hit when their sprite overlaps yours) i'd say yeah

also it doesnt have to be the only solution to making melee combat good, if you can think of something else please spitball it ITT

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 pm
by BeeSting12
Bump. SS14 style combat would be pretty cool, our current combat is largely ping based.

Here's maybe how it would work: Clicking anywhere with help intent just faces you that way as it does now. Clicking any direction with harm intent swings your melee weapon. This would hit anyone who is standing in the three tiles closest to you in the direction you swing. The first person hit will take the most damage, or could potentially block the attack for everyone else. If it has the sharp flag, it will cause cuts, otherwise just brute damage/bruising.

Clicking directly on a person is a targetted attack and thus thrusts the melee weapon at them without risking collateral damage, this would be more likely to cause penetration assuming the weapon has the sharp flag (the new wound, is that still a thing?). Targetted attacks are the only way to hit downed people. If you are downed and swinging a melee weapon, you will do damage to standing people's feet and other downed people.

This new system also gives potential for longer ranged melee weapons. I would also be able to support necromancer's stunbaton change (making them do stamina damage) since it would be less of a dumb game of yakety sax.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:11 am
by oranges
I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:18 am
by Sheodir
oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

I know this guy, he has an orange theme, you'll love him

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:45 am
by PKPenguin321
oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

Okay hear me out, what if we literally just made melee weapons into pseudo-guns that fire a really short range bullet and that's how it would work. That's what professional games do (for example TF2's melee weapons fire hitscan, which is also used by guns) and in our case it would cut out the vast majority of the work. I think we even already have a system in place to make projectiles die out after a set distance. I think after the initial refactor of all melee weapons, the only tricky part to code would be making a "swinging" projectile.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:03 am
by BeeSting12
I imagine doing what PKP described wouldn't be incredibly difficult, just time consuming/tedious. I have no idea where to start on the swinging thing but Shaps (I think?) coded a sledgehammer that acts in a manner similar to what I described. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do any of this right now, maybe in a couple months :p

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:28 am
by oranges
PKPenguin321 wrote:
oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

Okay hear me out, what if we literally just made melee weapons into pseudo-guns that fire a really short range bullet and that's how it would work. That's what professional games do (for example TF2's melee weapons fire hitscan, which is also used by guns) and in our case it would cut out the vast majority of the work. I think we even already have a system in place to make projectiles die out after a set distance. I think after the initial refactor of all melee weapons, the only tricky part to code would be making a "swinging" projectile.

I want you to take a fork and shove it into your own hands repeatedly until you cannot type any more

There is absolutely not justification not to take the time to do this properly, we're not on a timeline

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm
by PKPenguin321
I don't see how it would be "improper," since the idea behind what's being proposed for a jab from a melee weapon is that it literally shoots off an entity that hits people. Obviously you'd change it to not use most of the systems that guns do like ammo, the only part you would keep would be the code that fires off a fancy pixel projectile.

I might be misunderstanding you

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:59 pm
by oranges
if you can't see why it's improper please don't get involved in developing this then.


edit: if someone is willing to go through with this I want to see a design doc first.

Also, we should likely implement this too https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HJzKOr4hU

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:03 pm
by saprasam
i fully advocate for fun and unique melee combat systems but good luck finding a coder willing to do it

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:21 am
by Flatulent
make ss13 diablo 2 combat wise

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:47 pm
by Gamarr
You want combat to not suck then it has to be less binary!
That means the mobs need to be DIFFERENT from eachother. Every fucking Human mob (almost) is the same as every other Human mob crewman.

There are no stats that make them Them. You can dress them up but the bit of armor and weapons that might vary are only just that. You're just putting the emphasis on the melee weapons/armor/upgrades instead of creating stat arrays for the Human. Exchanging one problem for another for the same attempted result.

You want combat to not suck, then the base combat mechanics for tg needs to be uplifted in a major way. This is a major change to your code and there's a reason it hasn't happened. Good luck but unless you make a slave out of someone and make sure they see it to an end, not happening.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:49 pm
by Sheodir
Gamarr wrote:You want combat to not suck then it has to be less binary!
That means the mobs need to be DIFFERENT from eachother. Every fucking Human mob (almost) is the same as every other Human mob crewman.

There are no stats that make them Them. You can dress them up but the bit of armor and weapons that might vary are only just that. You're just putting the emphasis on the melee weapons/armor/upgrades instead of creating stat arrays for the Human. Exchanging one problem for another for the same attempted result.

You want combat to not suck, then the base combat mechanics for tg needs to be uplifted in a major way. This is a major change to your code and there's a reason it hasn't happened. Good luck but unless you make a slave out of someone and make sure they see it to an end, not happening.

No I'm pretty sure click combat's the issue

people already technically have vastly different stats depending on weapons/equipment, the issue is the interaction between those is boring

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:25 pm
by cacogen
we must add weapon durability

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:56 pm
by oranges
I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:41 pm
by PKPenguin321
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach

While this would definitely reduce the amount of spam clicking you would need to do, combat would still be entirely spam clicking, so I don't think this would be a definitive solution.
That said I think this was PRed long long ago and at the time I might have been against it for "trivializing melee combat" because I was a shitter

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm
by Stickymayhem
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach


This would significantly lower the skill floor for melee combat, and would make your actual gear, weaponry and/or RNG much bigger determining factors in the outcome of fights than they are now.

Not a criticism, just a comment. I've had my fill of spamclick melee fights for a lifetime so it's personally not a big deal to me if it gets drastically changed.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:24 pm
by oranges
Stickymayhem wrote:
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach


This would significantly lower the skill floor for melee combat.

That's kind of the point, closing to melee to use high stamina damage weapons or high force weapons, should be dangerous.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:26 am
by Farquaar
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach

That would be pretty cool. Sometimes it’s nice to throw precision to the wind and just beat the tar out of your enemies.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:12 am
by cacogen
Yeah that's a good idea. Have whether you hit be determined by position at time of click rather than pixel hunting when half the clicks don't register

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:43 am
by Flatulent
oranges wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach


This would significantly lower the skill floor for melee combat.

That's kind of the point, closing to melee to use high stamina damage weapons or high force weapons, should be dangerous.

except now it would be also MORE dangerous for ranged users to go against melee, because ranged is unchanged in this proposition and hitting with melee will be easier

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:22 am
by Screemonster
Flatulent wrote:
oranges wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach


This would significantly lower the skill floor for melee combat.

That's kind of the point, closing to melee to use high stamina damage weapons or high force weapons, should be dangerous.

except now it would be also MORE dangerous for ranged users to go against melee, because ranged is unchanged in this proposition and hitting with melee will be easier

don't let the melee user get close when you outrange them then 4head

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:10 am
by oranges
Flatulent wrote:
oranges wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
oranges wrote:I am interested in replacing click combat with one where the melee weapon simply hits the mob that is closest to the ray from your person to your mouse screen position upon click.

(Assuming anyone is in range)

But I have not seen anyone commit to this overhaul or a document describing their implementation approach


This would significantly lower the skill floor for melee combat.

That's kind of the point, closing to melee to use high stamina damage weapons or high force weapons, should be dangerous.

except now it would be also MORE dangerous for ranged users to go against melee, because ranged is unchanged in this proposition and hitting with melee will be easier

so run away

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:09 pm
by remanseptim
add aim assist but only if you play with a controller
the monkey paw

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:14 am
by oranges
playing tg with a controller will get you kicked because of the weird inputs it produces.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:41 am
by remanseptim
oranges wrote:playing tg with a controller will get you kicked because of the weird inputs it produces.

wait have people actually attempted this

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:00 pm
by Armhulen
Maybe if you were that one kid nobody liked who had the controller with a keyboard on it, I could see that kind of working.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:34 pm
by oranges
People have played byond with a controller connected, and they get disconnected from the server instantly because it looks like they're spamming malformed inputs.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:12 pm
by Screemonster
oranges wrote:People have played byond with a controller connected, and they get disconnected from the server instantly because it looks like they're spamming malformed inputs.

even if it's not being used? I don't unplug my shit before playing but maybe it goes to sleep or something if I'm not putting inputs in it

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:38 pm
by wesoda25
Flatulent wrote:except now it would be also MORE dangerous for ranged users to go against melee, because ranged is unchanged in this proposition and hitting with melee will be easier

Literally the main balancing principle between ranged and melee damage, if you're ranged don't get close.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:31 pm
by oranges
Screemonster wrote:
oranges wrote:People have played byond with a controller connected, and they get disconnected from the server instantly because it looks like they're spamming malformed inputs.

even if it's not being used? I don't unplug my shit before playing but maybe it goes to sleep or something if I'm not putting inputs in it

depends on the controller, but if you bump it you could well find yourself disconnected.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:50 am
by cacogen
add controller support

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:33 pm
by Agux909
I got no idea of how realistically possible it currently is to modify the combat system or to what degree it can be done, but I agree current system is shit and anything other than spam-m1 to win would be beneficial to the game, or at least more interesting.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:08 pm
by cacogen
I don't like click spam based combat because of bad latency but interestingly when spamming clicks on something without click delay a bunch get through where usually it would be one or none. If click spam is inevitable then click delay could be eased back on to accommodate people who don't live close to the server.

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:43 pm
by MisterPerson
Agux909 wrote:I got no idea of how realistically possible it currently is to modify the combat system or to what degree it can be done, but I agree current system is shit and anything other than spam-m1 to win would be beneficial to the game, or at least more interesting.


Don't worry about what's "possible". If this was a "real game", what would you expect?

Re: Melee combat sucks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:24 pm
by BONERMASTER
Yeah man, I agree. That disarm rework and all that stuff just ain't enough. I'm getting input lag on US servers anyway, and hunting a shithead with my mouse while he sprints around like Usain Bolt is not only painstakingly frustrating, it's also highly unsuccessful, almost all the clicks I do make just don't get counted, and I have had this happen hundreds of times where I stand right next to a dude, I click on him, and nothing even fucking happens.

A swing based system with actual ranges alone would be a blessing, but if we made even one better by combining it with pixel-movement, we'd have a real combat system. Something along the lines of hotline miami, y'know.