/tg/Station 13

I'd just like to know what exactly the reasoning behind making it so non-cultists/wizards can't use soul stones was. I mean, it could've been considered a glitch, sure, but it was so rare, but so fun when it happened. It's not like Security was making construct armies - no, just once in a rare while, a non-cultist crewmember would get a shade/construct sidekick, and fun times would be had by both of them.

I disagree with the change but I can see the reasoning.

It was a hard counter to construct cult and could involve a lot of confusing situations where 'friendly' constructs were killed or spawned constructs would attack security without realizing they aren't cultist owned.

I suppose separate construct colours need to be a thing, after all. Red for cult, purple for wizard, black for artifact/Chaplain?
This, of course, also means that constructs get something along the lines of a pAI prompt that tells them, in obvious and marked text, to serve their creator above all else. Including not attacking the people that will robust said creator if provoked.

Unless you're literally afk when you get turned into a construct, it's pretty clear cut to see what context you got spawned it with. And just attacking people because 'lel master didn't tell me not to' is rule 1 as shit.
Non cult constructs seeing who was cult got fixed ages ago also, so there was literally no reason to do this.

The only explaination I got when I asked repeatedly (other then the literally out of date argument about seeing who was cult) was 'it doesnt make sense for normal crew to use magic'.

And this is in the same game where we can pick up and use magic staves, wands, spellbooks, teleport scrolls, on top of knowing how to do every job ever with 100% proficiency etc etc.

I have to voice my support for the return of non-cult/wizard constructs, since it's a very rare occasion that it'll be possible, the main issue of seeing cultists was fixed, the argument that "the crew can't use magic" is bogus not just in summon magic rounds, but also when you find a spellbook in the same way you're likely to find soul shards on the asteroid, AND in its current form it's a way to cult test and meta the roundtype.

Hard counter to construct armies it may have been, there's fixes other than outright reverting it. Like a previous poster said, just make separate construct colors. Can't be that tough - like, a minute in Photoshop for each sprite, really.

also, apparently goonchem is getting reverted????? pls no, it's shit right now but Goofball's been working hard to fix it

Goonchem literally has two separate threads.
Unless my half-past-three-in-the-morning mind can't count again.

How was crew being able to use soul stones a 'hard counter' to construct armies?

lumipharon wrote:How was crew being able to use soul stones a 'hard counter' to construct armies?

As far as I know when they said they "fixed non-cult constructs be able to see cult icons." it never was fixed because there were still instances of shades ratting out cult members. That basically meant instant GG no re, to the cult. There literally was no way of preventing security teams from getting a soul stone and having a shade work with it's sec master to rat out cultist.

Could we make separate shades/constructs, and depending on your faction flag, when you use the soul shard you get different options to summon the correct shade? Would also add some flavor for some kind of bloody apparition for cult, versus some glowy monster for wizard, and just a generic(visible) goast for crew.

RG4 wrote:

lumipharon wrote:How was crew being able to use soul stones a 'hard counter' to construct armies?

As far as I know when they said they "fixed non-cult constructs be able to see cult icons." it never was fixed because there were still instances of shades ratting out cult members. That basically meant instant GG no re, to the cult. There literally was no way of preventing security teams from getting a soul stone and having a shade work with it's sec master to rat out cultist.

No, it was fixed.

RG4 wrote:

lumipharon wrote:How was crew being able to use soul stones a 'hard counter' to construct armies?

As far as I know when they said they "fixed non-cult constructs be able to see cult icons." it never was fixed because there were still instances of shades ratting out cult members. That basically meant instant GG no re, to the cult. There literally was no way of preventing security teams from getting a soul stone and having a shade work with it's sec master to rat out cultist.

It was fixed, but there was a loophole to do with cultists getting sharded. This was then fixed, merged, and linked to HG's PR, which he ignored and merged his thing anyway.

lumipharon wrote:

RG4 wrote:

lumipharon wrote:How was crew being able to use soul stones a 'hard counter' to construct armies?

As far as I know when they said they "fixed non-cult constructs be able to see cult icons." it never was fixed because there were still instances of shades ratting out cult members. That basically meant instant GG no re, to the cult. There literally was no way of preventing security teams from getting a soul stone and having a shade work with it's sec master to rat out cultist.

It was fixed, but there was a loophole to do with cultists getting sharded. This was then fixed, merged, and linked to HG's PR, which he ignored and merged his thing anyway.

Fair enough, though I think crew members should not be able to make constructs if it's cult or wizard (granted what wizard fucking makes constructs?). Nar-Nar's evil magic enables cultist to summon empty shells and stones that capture their fellow crew member's souls. If you're not part of Nar-Nar's cult, whose own blood summons forth evil magic then why the hell should Security McHarmbaton and GraySirt McTolbelt who aren't apart of the evil blood pact be able to summon his evil creations. The only exception is a soul stone and shell found on mining.

Yeah, speaking as a miner who collects those fairly often, I would like to see crew-constructs come back.

iyaerP wrote:Yeah, speaking as a miner who collects those fairly often, I would like to see crew-constructs come back.

Only during non-cult or wizard rounds then it's find.

RG4 wrote:

iyaerP wrote:Yeah, speaking as a miner who collects those fairly often, I would like to see crew-constructs come back.

Only during non-cult or wizard rounds then it's find.

Or make the mining constructs a completely different thing. Identical in function, but separate them enough with code so they dont get weird overlapping bugs like this.

non cult can't use blood magic, because they're not cult. They can could use soul shards/shells, just like wands/staffs/spellbooks etc, because they're enchanted items. The magic is already in them, they're ready to go.

Here's why
>Scientist
>Cult, yay.
>Team up with cult pals, sac RD
>Leave to go get a medibot
>Suddenly a shade points at me
>Stunned, cuffed, and lasered to death wordlessly on the spot
>Immediately soul sharded before I can ghost.
>made into a shade, I can see who cultists are even though my master is not one
>Told to point out cultists.
>cultists have no way of knowing if I'm a "loyal" shade or not
If sec ever got their hands on a soul stone and shell it was game over for the cult. Until colored constructs are a thing this is a 10/10 change.

So basically all the fixes and things which prevent the issues that made HG remove non-cult/wizard usage of soul shards and construct shells have already been fixed and coded, ready to go?

Who did this? We ought to get them in here and show some support.

Pybro wrote:Here's why

With that code fix, this will no longer be possible or an issue.

Pybro wrote:Here's why
>Scientist
>Cult, yay.
>Team up with cult pals, sac RD
>Leave to go get a medibot
>Suddenly a shade points at me
>Stunned, cuffed, and lasered to death wordlessly on the spot
>Immediately soul sharded before I can ghost.
>made into a shade, I can see who cultists are even though my master is not one
>Told to point out cultists.
>cultists have no way of knowing if I'm a "loyal" shade or not
If sec ever got their hands on a soul stone and shell it was game over for the cult. Until colored constructs are a thing this is a 10/10 change.

That was fixed, I'm pretty sure. Unless I've been misled.

Holy shit how many times do we have to say this? That bug WAS FIXED, it was fixed AND MERGED before HG's PR was merged. The merged PR was even linked into HG's PR, but he chose to ignore it anyway.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR NON CULTISTS TO MAKE SHADES/CONSTRUCTS THAT CAN SEE WHO IS A CULTIST.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6922

Then explain how wizards can hand crew wands and books.

Or how the mime makes actual walls.

Violaceus wrote:Of course everyone will disagree with me.

Because its dumb.

If you leave soul shards, the wizards spellbook or staffs and the like on the ground during your rampage its your own fault when you get dunked with it.

Blah blah backstory blah blah lore nobody cares about any of that stuff anyway and it promotes bad behaviors

wat. Sting is an ability, a soul stone is an item. An enchanted item.

We are not saying 'dunk wizards and extract spells out of their brains'.

We are saying it makes sense to use this enchanted/magic item, just like we use other enchanted/magic items, just like we use other items.

The magic is already in the stone, non magical people can't make them, they can just activate what is already setup to do a fixed thing.
It's like a computer with a pre-programmed function, you don't need to understan it/be able to recreate it to press the go button.

lumipharon wrote:wat. Sting is an ability, a soul stone is an item. An enchanted item.

We are not saying 'dunk wizards and extract spells out of their brains'.

We are saying it makes sense to use this enchanted/magic item, just like we use other enchanted/magic items, just like we use other items.

The magic is already in the stone, non magical people can't make them, they can just activate what is already setup to do a fixed thing.
It's like a computer with a pre-programmed function, you don't need to understan it/be able to recreate it to press the go button.

How would most people know that the chunk of rock needs ot be used on someone in crit or on a dying body

And my point is we already have
A: Precendence of literally every other magic thing in the game
and
B: The fluff point that it's not 'using magic' per say, in that it's using an object, that is itself, magical.

So magic space jesus makes a magic rock honk when you use it on someone. Random scrubs honk people with magic rock because it was magic space jesus that put the magic on the rock, not them.

>being this literal

Pretty sure the entire point of wands and staffs and magical items in most TTRPGs is to allow mundane people to cast magic without actually being magical.

Violaceus wrote:I just want to see some difference and background in various antagonists, instead of cultist being just generic human with X item and wizard being just generic human with Y item.

I imagine that becoming a wizard takes decades of studies and preparation, and all of that just to learn "okay I just point this wand at him and shake it"?

Similiary
>be Nar'Sie
>give power of trapping souls and making monsters out of them to faithful followers
>but also grant this power to enemies of cult
wat

The point of a wand or staff is to allow spells to be cast by non-magic users or to save spell slots.

Pretty much it is just point and glowy thing shoots out