Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

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Armhulen
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Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572898

I love devil's theme, I love their actual form, and everything like that. It's just everything else. Their gameplay is complete doodoo and actively (and almost instantly) ruins the round. How do we fix Devil? I would love to keep em around.

Hrm actually coding feedback is probably better than ideas let me move it
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Cobby » #572899

the entire gameplay banks on the fact you will not kill the devil because he will give you powers, while also banking on the fact you will kill the devil because he is antag.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572900

Cobby wrote:the entire gameplay banks on the fact you will not kill the devil because he will give you powers, while also banking on the fact you will kill the devil because he is antag.
Bingo, ding ding ding. It doesn't even work in MRP. trust me. My first idea was to make the devil somewhat like contractor/heretic in that they'll have one target they force a deal on, and the deal is a choice of downsides the other player must pick. The name also comes with more rituals and other complicated setups to actively and permanently cripple the devil, so it becomes a race to slow ascension with rituals, cripple the devil with them as well, and attack him with his downsides as he continually signs contracts
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by BrotherBeyond » #572901

Any change that'd fix it would have to make the whole signing contract thing not the victim's idea. At least partially.

There are at least 15 tiders on at any time that'd gladly sign a contract for AA. Also each stage should affect something on a station-wide scale. Lights blow out on a part of the station? A light meteor shower? Things like that. Things that make people want to kill that red fucker.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572902

I like the idea of the player having a choice in the matter as that's core devil, but it needs to be them picking a horrible downside instead of them picking what they want, it should be them getting nothing and picking what they don't want the least. Losing their legs, losing their memory, something they can't get back.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Stickymayhem » #572903

the idea of rules that devils absolutely have to follow that make them behave strangely is very cool

ITS A SHAME NO ONE FUCKING FOLLOWS THEM, AND CODE ONLY ENFORCES LIKE A THIRD OF THEM, AND EVEN ROUNDS WHERE IVE LITERALLY FIREBALLED DEVILS FOR DISOBEYING THEIR LAWS DONT STOP THEM CONSTANTLY DISOBEYING THEIR LAWS

FUCKING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Devil could be so fun but I think if you make it too mechanical it'll become metagamable and if you make it too fluffy its unenforceable without admin supervision
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572904

I'm just going to start working on my idea for the rework, but I will be checking in on this thread regularly for ideas.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Critawakets » #572905

The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572906

Critawakets wrote:The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.
We have a beetlejuice component, we could have him stuck in ethereal and only summoned when his name is said three times?
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by BrotherBeyond » #572907

Armhulen wrote:
Critawakets wrote:The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.
We have a beetlejuice component, we could have him stuck in ethereal and only summoned when his name is said three times?
Haha that'd be funny when people just forget and the devil never appears.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by letshavecake » #572910

Other than dumbing down the entire devil concept, the only way to fix it would be to completely rework what an antag even means in this case
It's really hard to get around the fact that it's about giving people what they want, and most people are too anti-fun to want anything other than valids
Without any big structural changes to how the station works and how they would view taking down a devil, the only thing I can think of would be the devil handing out psuedo-antag roles to throw off the rest of the crew and stop the devil from getting immediately gang tackled, but that could easily snowball into a massive clusterfuck
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572911

That's why I'm just going to have the devil force debilitation on people, and they have to pick what they think isn't the worst.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #572916

Good downsides? Think opposite of what the devil has now, what with the powers he gives.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by XDTM » #572946

An idea would be to move the devil to a side antag, mostly ethereal, that only comes when summoned via beetlejuice or something like that, and offers deals that give a powerful benefit, inflict some kind disability or trauma, and advance the devil's objective. If the devil gathers power, he can become more proactive, first being able to appear uninvited to propose deals, then being able to force 'deals' onto people that fulfill certain random conditions (e.g. people who are not well fed, have bad mood, are stained with blood, and so on); with even more power they can force deals into non-holy people, with ultimate power they get greentext and powerful abilities to play around with to mess with the round as a victory lap.

This way the devil acts as an interactable entity during the course of a normal crew vs antags round, spicing it up without having to be the main driver of conflict. The presence of other antags allows the devil deals to be a bad thing for the crew, instead of being purely beneficial. Even if the antags don't bite, if too many people sign the deals the devil could start becoming predatory, and it becomes important to find out what condition lets him force contracts on people to prevent further snowballing.
I'm not sure how to handle killing devils, since the possibility to do so would stifle the other interactions (tg players can hardly resist validhunting). Either it should be tied to the devil taking a voluntary risk (only when self-summoning?), or it should be limited to reducing his power to prevent forced contracts.

The contracts themselves offer a variety of magic powers, psychic abilities, body modifications, and special traits, chosen by the devil, as well as a penalty, also chosen by the devil. These bonuses and penalties have point values, and the difference between the penalty and the bonus is the profit that the devil gets for his objective. Thus, the devil can't just give the best powers for the lowest costs, but has to convince people to take in bad deals, and seeking out the beggars that can't be choosers, which is a pretty common trope when talking about deals with the devil.

If the idea looks good i might write down a full design doc, i've got some ideas about the details as well.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by terranaut » #572949

remove the triple fireball and make it a little less tanky
dont make round removing a devil hinge on the curator only
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #572951

terranaut wrote:remove the triple fireball and make it a little less tanky
dont make round removing a devil hinge on the curator only
it isnt tho? 90 % of the times i just weld into librarian room to get book (cause no one takes it), if devil has already stole it, i just order it from cargo book crate, lawyers are way more usefull than the meme role called "librarian" during a devil outbreak

remove the hulk contract thing its just aids

make the people who take contracts turn into team semi - antags ( sinners? they protect the devil but no bonin) which need exorcision and are weak to bibles instead of LOOOL THANK U 4 POWA NOW I SHOOT U DED

have contracts have like 3 min cooldown
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by saprasam » #572956

cant kill the devil if they own your soul : - )
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by confused rock » #572962

Armhulen wrote:Good downsides? Think opposite of what the devil has now, what with the powers he gives.
First off I love this idea though I think it'd be cool if there were some circumstances the devil would give you a positive effect or maybe for some of his downsides to have upsides as well
I have a couple suggestions like that but all of them could fit in as pure bad if you wanted.. I don't know how big you want these drawbacks to be but minor and major curses maybe?
I hope you'll have a selection of only some of these, so you can't rely on just taking the bad one you're used to.

-Brain traumas would be easy, and looking to them to handpick fun ones would be good.

My unique ideas:
Spoiler:
-*wine blood* the victim's blood is now wine. Do as you want with this, it's too good thematically to not do! Fails-the-straight-line-test-tier-drunk is a really big downside but anything less wouldn't be very bad, so I'm not sure. But it's gotta exist!

-one that could have ups and downs- you pick this downside, then you get to pick a person, and you and them then have their view or maybe even heads swapped, so you see through them. Possibly make it like dullahans in that they can switch to seeing from their body, but blind. I think this would be good for forcing players together, and it would still cause conflict between the two since it applies to two people and one specifically knows the other has caused this bad situation for them. Very crafty uses for it like selecting someone who has been kidnapped to find out where they are or something. It could be random but I think the conflict entailed between whoever picked it and their victim(and them having to work together) would be excellent. Letting the devil choose is probably a bad idea since they would probably powergame it by making them swap with some braindead guy or something rather than making it interesting (which would be hard since they probably know less about the person picking than themself). I REALLY love this idea.

-if you don't like your options, a "random" button that could give you any curse, so the risky option.

-*you forget how to stand.* all knockdowns now force you into resting, and you cannot get up from resting by yourself. An exception could be being able to use a chair to help you get up, maybe.

- your shoes are untied at random intervals, an average of every 30 seconds. You can take shoes off but shoes automatically equip themselves if you go anywhere near them- if you stand next to someone with no shoes, they will teleport from their feet to yours. If you pick this as a digitigrade lizard both of your legs explode.


-*bad luck is coming your way.* Same as the effect from the "FUCK YOU" coupons shaps added on the back of cigarette packets that make vending machines crush you and stuff.
Ideas based on reversed current powers, like two of which are actually good (evil twin mostly)
Spoiler:
-reversed magic- you have the cursed heart effect

-reversed revival- same as the current "steals soul when you die" effect.

-reversed friendship- an evil twin, identical to you, spawns and both of you are teleported to random locations on the station. The evil twin is a perfect clone and has everything you're carrying (if there's an item like the nuke disk, neither of you will get it, and it will be dropped where you signed the contract.) Alternatively everything you have is dropped where you sign the contract and both you and the twin only start with clothes and your ID. Either the evil twin should always have to kill and replace you, should have a vague objective like "make them regret picking this curse". Or a specific, likely malicious, but random objective, ranging from killing and replacing to trying to defame the person who picked the contract to just being evil in general.

-reversed knowledge- either yeah the memory thing which I'd love but I don't know if it could work well on tg, or you are now unable to identify people. Everyone in chat logs, in examine logs, ID cards, everything shows up as "unknown" for you.

-reversed prestige- no ideas that wouldn't be self antagging

-reversed wealth- reverse crab 12 effect, money drains out of any id card in your inventory, going to all the other ids on the station. vending machines are now impossible to use.

-reversed power- clearly the opposite of power is the apc turning off in the room you're in intermittently.
Last edited by confused rock on Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by NoxVS » #572967

Changing the gifts to be stronger and less visible would be nice. I feel like Devil should be a more silent antag, but it can't do that. It has to reveal itself to make any deals.

Also change the end result where too many people giving him souls ends the round
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by oranges » #572970

reuse the sprites for a megafauna and delete the code
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by SkeletalElite » #572981

Maybe change it to where instead of being your character while being a devil you posess people and do your devil thing while controlling them, possession could be temporary and you'll get yeeted out of them eventually. Then the method of apply toolbox to forehead becomes useless because the devil isn't actually the person they're controlling and killing them will result in the devil just possessing someone else.

Maybe make it to where deals are only one part of what a devil does and they also do other antag things.

Alternatively, they could be changed to not have round ending ascension and become a mid round antag.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Dr_bee » #573043

Make it part of heretics as an opt-in Blood brothers style powerset with the devil and heretic working towards a common goal. Killing the devil would only temporarily banish them if the summoner is left alive, and the devil can revive the summoner with his contract normally, but is under no obligation to greentext wise.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by cacogen » #573063

do not reuse the basic devil sprite for a megafauna because it's always looked bad and delete the code
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #573064

cacogen wrote:do not reuse the basic devil sprite for a megafauna because it's always looked bad and delete the code
Yeah I don't know how to explain it but the devil sprite is THEMATICALLY amazing not like... literally...
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Zack » #573078

I've had a ton of ideas across the many times I've played devil but I don't really promise any of them are great or balanced

if forced contracts are unfeasible for any reason, i was thinking the devil could make something like a structure or just a demonic electric printer (it's the 26th century guys) or just leave blank contracts around that any crewmember can pick up, and sign, perhaps choosing a positive/negative (both, not just one) to sell their soul for. if the devil has to absolutely be present for the soul selling, maybe a way to temporarily pacify people they're asking to sign a contract? it'd have to be something that can't be abused. (cooldown? channeled ability?) or the already discussed idea of forceful contracting.

rather than just having a static evolution, maybe let devil spend souls like spellbook points to unlock various powers for more than just hellfire spam? a way to summon imps to serve as weak minions and bring ghosts back into the round that you can do before the GG unkillable god devil form? maybe even slaughter demons when you get a stupid amount of souls? heck, just remove slaughter demons from wizard and bring them to devil. then they'd actually make sense and be more relevant. a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing? everything other than the slaughter demon or fire related stuff should be geared towards helping the devil but not killing people so s/he can actually take their souls. way more abilities than just the stuff i'm listing here, so that there's open-ended play that's fun instead of just the default hellfire and pitchfork which are pretty much solely for defending yourself. (and arent terribly effective at it usually) but it'd have to be done in such a way that it doesn't just become Wizard 2.

on the topic of those weird RP rules that devils have to (but never usually) follow, as well as the topic of that spellpoint-like thing I was talking about, maybe the devil has to pick negative traits as well to buy things? rather than just randomly generated arbitrary actions they have to follow, a set of downsides a devil must accept and take if they want to get stronger. (things like growing their horns early, becoming very obvious to the crew? a permanent speech pattern sort of like the chef's swedish moustache? being instantly and annoyingly and instantly summoned/other dumb effect when someone says your true name? weakness to normal water? instant ashing on holy surfaces?) maybe that's too far, but my general point is while the devil is the focal point of the event they'd be spawning in, they shouldn't instantly be capable of (or even encouraged to) murderbone the entire crew, and should have more than just roleplay weaknesses to show this, only really being circumvented when they reach their final, ultimate, form.

I would say keep the requirement for souls for the devil to revive, but make them harder to just get instantly owned when any random valider finds them. let them take souls from dead bodies? (fresh ones only, maybe? sort of like how revenants do it.) and maybe if possible give a devil an out to escape if they're about to be cremated. (an ability that ashes their current body, but they respawn somewhere on the station at the cost of souls? would they have to purchase this ability, like changeling's last resort?)

how about on the flip side, making chaplain even more relevant? demons of all kinds should fear them. not just the curator and their silly demon book. a way to bring back souls that isn't bureaucratic in nature? crosses? could even go full ham and make that angel wings lavaland thing into something the chaplain can do to a crewmember, perhaps if they take something of the devil's and consecrate it? how much immunity should their null rod grant them?

ill stop before this becomes a super huge essay, sorry if none of this is the direction you wanted to take devil, i'm just offering food for thought on the ideas i've had
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by nianjiilical » #573100

one idea i had was letting people intentionally summon devils through a simple ritual, maybe something like surround blood with candles or something and activate it

the ritual could be done even if there wasnt a devil in the round, but if there was a devil theyd get a notification of who summoned them and maybe the ability to teleport to the blood, maybe being invincible while in the ritual zone but pacified so sec couldnt just summon them and then gun them down

this way people who actually want devil powers (antags?) can intentionally try to make a deal, while making sec's job tracking down the devil's boons/banes/name and using that to trap it in a 'bad' ritual or something
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #573102

nianjiilical wrote:one idea i had was letting people intentionally summon devils through a simple ritual, maybe something like surround blood with candles or something and activate it

the ritual could be done even if there wasnt a devil in the round, but if there was a devil theyd get a notification of who summoned them and maybe the ability to teleport to the blood, maybe being invincible while in the ritual zone but pacified so sec couldnt just summon them and then gun them down

this way people who actually want devil powers (antags?) can intentionally try to make a deal, while making sec's job tracking down the devil's boons/banes/name and using that to trap it in a 'bad' ritual or something
i think this may make them too common of a force
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Whoneedspacee » #573240

it would be such a rework that it might as well be a different ass mode, the base that it is on is shit.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Whoneedspacee » #573241

oranges wrote:reuse the sprites for a megafauna and delete the code
i would...
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by BrianBackslide » #573397

The Devil is a tempter and should be more capable of engineering situations that make the player WANT to sell their soul. Sometimes it feels kinda pointless to be taking a contract unless you happen to be an antag. You aren't really getting anything out of it that can't be obtained through other, possibly slower, means.

So if Devil is its own round like Wizard then it needs some way to drum up conflict and "gently nudge" people to consider selling their soul. The Devil is more low-key than a Wizard and shouldn't be out in the open until it's started snowballing. Maybe the Devil can have up to two sinners much like apprentices in that they have objectives, powers, and a theme. Unlike apprentices, they are random like traitors/lings/etc. and answer to the Devil. They then get to pick what kind of sinner they are from the seven deadly sins, which determines their powers.

A Sinner of Wrath would be able to hex players such that when they hug people, they hit them instead. (super effective on Manuel)
A Sinner of Greed could drain money from players.
A Sinner of Pride could temporarily revoke access from IDs.

Of course, having a contract with the Devil makes you immune to the Sinners' abilities. Maybe it makes you into a Sinner too?

These are just spitballing ideas. In any case, Devil doesn't work as a solo antag and should either get some assistance or be a midround.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Istoprocent1 » #574395

By refactoring code and removing it.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #574404

Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.
refactoring... what exactly?
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Istoprocent1 » #574409

Armhulen wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.
refactoring... what exactly?
I mean completely remove the devil and remove any remnants of it from the current code? A thanos snap.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by ATHATH » #574781

XDTM wrote:An idea would be to move the devil to a side antag, mostly ethereal, that only comes when summoned via beetlejuice or something like that, and offers deals that give a powerful benefit, inflict some kind disability or trauma, and advance the devil's objective. If the devil gathers power, he can become more proactive, first being able to appear uninvited to propose deals, then being able to force 'deals' onto people that fulfill certain random conditions (e.g. people who are not well fed, have bad mood, are stained with blood, and so on); with even more power they can force deals into non-holy people, with ultimate power they get greentext and powerful abilities to play around with to mess with the round as a victory lap.

This way the devil acts as an interactable entity during the course of a normal crew vs antags round, spicing it up without having to be the main driver of conflict. The presence of other antags allows the devil deals to be a bad thing for the crew, instead of being purely beneficial. Even if the antags don't bite, if too many people sign the deals the devil could start becoming predatory, and it becomes important to find out what condition lets him force contracts on people to prevent further snowballing.
I'm not sure how to handle killing devils, since the possibility to do so would stifle the other interactions (tg players can hardly resist validhunting). Either it should be tied to the devil taking a voluntary risk (only when self-summoning?), or it should be limited to reducing his power to prevent forced contracts.

The contracts themselves offer a variety of magic powers, psychic abilities, body modifications, and special traits, chosen by the devil, as well as a penalty, also chosen by the devil. These bonuses and penalties have point values, and the difference between the penalty and the bonus is the profit that the devil gets for his objective. Thus, the devil can't just give the best powers for the lowest costs, but has to convince people to take in bad deals, and seeking out the beggars that can't be choosers, which is a pretty common trope when talking about deals with the devil.

If the idea looks good i might write down a full design doc, i've got some ideas about the details as well.
I really like this idea, especially the "point difference" part. Ideally, the devil shouldn't have access to all boons and all drawbacks at once, so that the "meta build" doesn't always get chosen.

I also like the idea of one of the drawbacks being an assassin who can self-terminate at any time (even if he's unconscious and/or dead) and respawn a few minutes later, so you can never get rid of him permanently (although you can force him to tide for gear again). Maybe combine this with the evil twin drawback idea, so you can't just negate the evil twin drawback by finding and icing your un-geared twin?
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by ATHATH » #574782

Zack wrote: a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing?
That power exists already, actually: Sintouch, which true devils and ascended devils get access to.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #574783

ATHATH wrote:
Zack wrote: a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing?
That power exists already, actually: Sintouch, which true devils and ascended devils get access to.
which is bullshit trust me
Istoprocent1 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.
refactoring... what exactly?
I mean completely remove the devil and remove any remnants of it from the current code? A thanos snap.
this is not what refactor means. refactoring is improving HOW code does something without changing WHAT that code does, AKA the mecha refactor recently just rewrote all the mechas to be vehicles, but there is nearly no differences at all to the players themselves
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by ATHATH » #574792

BrianBackslide wrote:A Sinner of Wrath would be able to hex players such that when they hug people, they hit them instead. (super effective on Manuel)
A Sinner of Greed could drain money from players.
A Sinner of Pride could temporarily revoke access from IDs.
God, I absolutely love those wrath and pride abilities (might want to give pride sinners intrinsic AA or something, so that they have something to be prideful over). The greed one's okay, I guess, and definitely in-theme with the sin of greed, but I feel like it's just a bit... weak. Like, the economy system just isn't important enough for that greed ability to do more than mildly inconvenience someone. Maybe the ability to conjure money to bribe the QM with could be better? Or maybe you could give each sinner type a "carrot" ability (wrath could conjure guns, greed could conjure money, pride could conjure (or give themselves intrinsic?) a captain's spare ID card (or just cast Knock with a short cooldown?), sloth could make people unable to feel pain (y'know how Slowpoke from Pokemon take days to react to pain? it'd sort of be like that) or something that requires you to stand still for a while in order to use it, etc.) and a "stick" ability (wrath hex, greed money drain, pride access revoking, sloth movement speed debuff, etc.).
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by BrianBackslide » #575504

Glad you liked my rambling! Coming back to this I think the idea could be refined a bit further. So without further ado...

Poor Unfortunate Souls
You're a Sinner, congratulations! Your job is to help your Devil get those delicious, meaty souls. How? You may ask? Peer pressure and light antagging is one way to do it, but you've been given a small sliver of power by your Devil to help... Smooth things over a bit. Remember though, you're about as hard an antag as an Obsessed or Families member, so killing is okay, but murderbone/blowing up the station is a no-no. Now be a good little Sinner and help your Devil get what they want! Every player that takes a contract and sells their soul becomes a Sinner. (Like Families, it's opt-in)

Hexes and Incarnations
A Sinner gets to choose an incarnation out of the seven deadly sins. These Incarnations grant passive effects and allow a specific Hex for the Sinner to cast upon unfortunate crewmen. Incarnation passives do not stack. A note of warning, though: A player can only have ONE Hex active on them, a Sinner cannot have more than one player Hexed at a time (If you Hex someone else then the first Hex is lifted), Hexes do not work on mindshielded players, and Hexes cannot be used on other Sinners! (We're all one big happy soulless family!) Here's a list of the sins, their respective Hexes, and their passive bonuses.
Spoiler:
Wrath:
Passive: Help intent is now harm intent while near the Sinner. All damage dealt to non-Devil aligned players is increased slightly while near the Sinner. (Go camp medbay, it'll be great)
Hex: The Hexed player will get a positive modlet for attacking another player, and a negative moodlet when they haven't attacked another player in a while.

Greed:
Passive: While near the Devil, the Devil cannot be forced to relinquish its souls. (What's yours is mine. What's mine is also mine)
Hex: The Hexed player will gain a positive moodlet when picking something up/putting an item in their bag, and a negative moodlet for removing something from their inventory/dropping something.

Sloth:
Passive: While near the Sinner, non-Devil aligned players have their progress bar actions slowed and take longer to get up from slips and stuns.
Hex: The Hexed player is forced to WALK. (Oh the humanity!)

Envy:
Passive: (I got nothing here)
Hex: The Hexed player will gain a negative moodlet for not possessing an item that a certain player has. (Like the obsessed heirloom objective)

Pride:
Passive: Devil aligned players near the Sinner gain all access. (But the Pride Sinner does not).
Hex: The Hexed player loses all but basic access to their department. (So a CMO would still have medbay access, but lose Command and CMO access, an Engineer could only get into their department lobby, etc.) Probably not powerful enough

Lust:
Passive: Non-Devil aligned players gain a positive moodlet being near the Sinner.
Hex: The Hexed player gains negative moodlets when not being near a random crewmember. (Like obsessed)

Gluttony:
Passive: Addiction and Overdose thresholds for non-Devil aligned players is significantly reduced while near the Sinner.
Hex: The Hexed player gains one addiction, and their hunger is set to starving.
With all this power though, the Devil looks like it can snowball pretty damn hard even with only one or two Sinners running around. So how do we combat that?

Fighting The Devil
You can still force the Devil to give the souls back unless there's a Greed Sinner nearby. However there are new tools to combat the vile forces of darkness.
Mindshields are very much effective in reducing the havoc that Sinners can wreak on crew, but are not the only way to go about it. The Chaplain can remove Hexes with a bible smack and, in a pinch, Holy Water can be used. Excessive amounts of Holy Water.
In addition, the Curator isn't the only one that can reliably get information out of the Codex Gigas. Normal crew can use it and always get the correct information... At the cost of brain damage and a permanent phobia trauma. (Nerf HARS)

I think changes like these give the Devil a bit more weight on the round, but more importantly give an ICly reason for players to want to sell their soul. (Being that Sinners are more Families type antags)
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by EagleWiz » #575520

Armhulen wrote: this is not what refactor means. refactoring is improving HOW code does something without changing WHAT that code does, AKA the mecha refactor recently just rewrote all the mechas to be vehicles, but there is nearly no differences at all to the players themselves

Player here, there's a difference. The difference is the mechas are semi-broken now.

As for devil, what would be thematic would be to have the devil start out as the lesser of two (or more) evils - something able to make deals that in some way assist the crew/station in dealing with/surviving more immediate dangers, but who is empowered by these deals and becomes a new issue to deal with.
Something like devil spawning during cult rounds where the cult gets some sort of boost to make them more of a threat (or maybe they just get to make deals with the devil as well?) and the devil deals make the crew safer from the cult/better able to take the cult down, rather then just being greytide toys, or a devil acting as a powers arms merchant during a revolution.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #575528

I really fuckin wish mechas didnt get through with so little testing considering what it was
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by spookydonut » #576250

This PR is up to remove devil https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/53612 and pending some bugs with it I think it has a solid case for being merged.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by Armhulen » #576309

Yep, RIP devil
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #607725

RIP Devil. Eitherway, here's how to fix it.

Devi has 3 main issues:
-> You're literally saying "I'm valid",
-> No incentive for the crew to make deals
-> Not that great deals eitherway

The ideas I'm proposing are a mix of the ideas proposed here before and some of my new ideas. I'm gonna divide this into chunks, to make it easier to navegate & read. Also - there'd be only 1 devil rather than many, and they'd have a bunch of traitor-ish objectives. Keep that in mind.

Full disclaimer: Not everything in this is 100% balanced. Some things have to get some playtesting, or people smarter than me, to tweak the numbers and details.

Section 1: Intangibility & Immunity
Spoiler:
One of the main issues of devil is that you have to declare that you're valid. No more.

Now, devils are invisible, can pass through walls, are fast and can hear all the station and radio frequencies - basically ghostmode, but without the ghosts. In exchange, the devil cannot interact AT ALL with the physical other than making deals and interacting with the people they made a deal with (more on that later).

Basically - the Devil, rather than interacting with the world directly will instead indirectly create chaos by giving crewmates the tools needed to cause chaos and, of course, complete the devil's objectives for him. In addition to having basically ghostmode, he has one more tool in his arsenal to find signers: Any prayer (but not ahelps, of course) done while a devil is present will, rather than going to the space gods, go to HIM. If anyone really, really wishes something and has turned to forces beyond their comprehension, then a devil is bound to know.
Section 2: Sealing the Deal
Spoiler:
The old devil gamemode had a problem of vague (and bad) contracts; they were either too restricted, too limited and couldn't generally do what you wanted most of the time. Heck, you couldn't even sell rubber gloves!

The way making contracts works now is simple - the Devil has 2 abilities regarding contracts; Summon Contract and Contract Writting.

Summon contract is simple - you summon a special written paper, the contract. It is already pre-written and the signed just needs to use the pen on the paper to sign it. Neat!
However, it's with Contract Writting that things get good. When you use it while holding a contract, you open a UI similar to traitor's Uplink. With it you can use Devil Points (DP's) to add effects to the contract. When the contract is signed, the crew member gets all the items and effects you bought with DP.
Let's give an example.

Devil Nathan appears in front of assistant Michael, and they make a deal - Nathan will gain Michael's soul, in addition to being able to ask him to complete the devil's objective of killing Joe, the detective. In return, Michael will gain rubber gloves. So, Nathan uses Summon Contract to summon a contract and uses Contract Writting on the contract. He then buys Rubber Gloves for 3 DP's and puts it on the contract. Michael signs it, they gain rubber gloves and set off to kill the detective.


You start with 30 DP's, to waste however you want. You can put em all in a single assistant or spread them among multiple contracts, giving multiple ways of going around doing your objectives. Do note however, that summoning a contract costs 5 DP - so you have, at maximun, 6 signers. And that's assuming you can get 6 people to sell their soul for no benefit, of course.
Section 3: Getting the Job Done
Spoiler:
You armed your assistant with all your Devil Points and is ready to see him kill the chef. But that fucker can't stop raiding the bridge for the captain's stuff. This is where your third and last ability comes in: Devil Touch.

As a devil, you can telepatically communicate with your signers, but sometimes you gotta do more "convincing". So, once every 5 minutes, you can do a Devil Touch. Devil Touch will deal a large amount of brute damage to whoever you want, telepatically - but only to someone who sold their soul to you. While a single Devil Touch can't put you into crit, 2 is more than enough.

Remember however, that you can only Devil Touch someone who signed your contracts. It's not an attack, but rather a way to ensure your signers follow their side of the contract.
Section 4: Counterplay
Spoiler:
You, the Head of Security, has a big, big problem: There is a devil creating antagonists in your station. What can you do?

You have 3 options.

The most boring option is just waiting it out. Devils have limited DP, meaning after a while he will run out of steam and everything will go back to normal. This is obviously not ideal, but if you have no other options, it's possible.

The second option is performing a banishing ritual. A banishing ritual can only be done by the Chaplain, the Curator or the Lawyer. In order to do so, they'd need to have with them the Codex Gigas. Doing a banishment ritual is simple. The chaplain/curator/lawyer uses the Codex in their hand while in the chapel. If there is a demon on the station, the ritual commences.
The devil is alerted that the ritual has started. The chaplain/curator/lawyer doesn't have to stay in the chapel while that is going on; the Gigas does all of the work for you. However, while the book does its thing it cannot leave the chapel. If it does, then the ritual will fail and the book will disintegrate. If the ritual is successfull, the demon is defeated and removed from the round. Finally, if you use the Gigas in the chapel while there isn't a demon onboard, you take some brain damage. Ouch!

Finally, you have the third, quickest and most dangerous option: The Possession Contract. A Possession Contract can only be done with the Captain, or if he's dead or there is no captain, the HoP (and if there's no HoP, the HoS). After the head signs the contract, the demon loses its demon status and all of its DP. The captain does not sell his soul in this case and is NOT an antagonist. However the captain would get a permanent and uncurable Split Personality trauma - with the demon as the other personality! They keep their memories, objectives and antagonist status, just now in the Captain's body. If it's impending doom, it might be worth it to mitigate the chaos.
Section 5: What you can buy with DP
This is what you'll actually be selling to your contractors. Do note this is just a guideline and not a definitive list; it's to give an idea of what you can do. Remember, you start with 30 DP and making a contract spends 5.
Items:
Spoiler:
These will appear in the hands (or in the floor) when the contract is signed.
3 Telecrystals: 1 DP
Insulated gloves: 3 DP
Galoshes: 3 DP
Energy Gun: 7 DP
[...]
Powers:
Spoiler:
These will take effect immediately after the contract is signed.
All-Access: 15 DP (This gives to all ID's currently on the signer all-access.)
Friendship: 5 DP (Works exactly the same way the Contract of Friendship worked in the old devil)
Make the signer (if a clown) not clumsy: 1 DP
Teleportation: 5 DP (Teleports the signer to a specified location)
Un-wanted: 1 DP (Makes the signer not wanted anymore)
[...]
Transformations:
Spoiler:
These will transform the signer immediately. Unlike the other rewards, you can only have 1 of these in a contract, and you cannot put other rewards to your contract. While transformed they still are under your contract. Do note that for some of the strongest transformations (ie Blob or Space Dragon), your Devil Touch gets upgraded to deal more damage to them specifically.

Blob: 25 DP (aka all your DP)
Space Ninja: 17 DP
Changeling: 5 DP
Nightmare: 18 DP
[...]
Section 6: After the storm
Spoiler:
You have caused havoc on the station and armed the assistants. What do you do now?
You have a few options.

Firstly, if you still have some DP left, you can buy a Transformation and use it on yourself. That is the only reward you can use yourself. Doing so will spawn you into the round as the chosen antagonist.

If you don't have enough to do that, or don't want to do that, you can enter the game as a pitiful assistant. Depending on how much DP you still have left, you can get more or less with you:
If you have 0 DP when you do this, your starting ID does not have maintenance access.
If you have 1 DP when you do this, you have the same regular setup an assistant has.
If you have 2 DP when you do this, you start with a toolbox full of tools.
If you have 3 DP or more when you do this, you start with a pair of rubber gloves, plus the toolbox.

Regardless of how you decide to return to the round after doing your havoc - be it as a Space Dragon, as an Assistant or as the Captain's split personality, remember you are still the same devil, just in a different body - meaning, you retain your memories and your objectives.
Section 7: Why this would be good for the game
Spoiler:
If you haven't catched on already, this is essentially what admins do on the regular - answer prayers (or start shit themselves), give stuff to the players, cause chaos and make the round more interesting.

If you ever wanted to make a huge scheme that would involve several people and departments, this is a perfect way of doing so; buy the souls of the ones you want involved, give them some tools and go to town. Part of the reason why Space Station 13 is so enjoyable is because no round is the same; there's always some new insane stuff happening every round, be it due to the player's roleplaying, due to the shenanigans the players create or due to the admin shenanigans.

Devils would fuel all of that. The reasons and rewards can be used to further roleplaying, the rewards can incentivize and enable player shenanigans ("You get to do your gimmick but later you have to kill the detective") and is basically just admin shenanigans built-in. Of course this would be a rare-ish and weight a ton in Dynamic due to its ability to create new antagonists.
It keeps all the good stuff about devil - the roleplaying oportunities, the theme of deals and devils, giving the curator and lawyer something to do - and fixes all of its issues (almost everything else).
So - that is my suggestion on fixing Devil.

Tl;Dr:
There is only 1 devil rather than many. They also have a lot of objectives.
Devils aren't parts of the crew anymore, but rather pop in and out of existence intangible. They can't interact with the physical.
Signing a contract turns you into an antagonist, gives you some stuff and gives the devil a strong attack vs you, in case you disobey.
There are many rewards for signing a contract that the devil can choose from a Uplink-style menu rather than the static 7 contracts.
Finally, they can turn themselves into side (or main, depending on how much they gave with contracts) antagonists after they're done.
The chaplain, lawyer and/or the curator can perform a ritual with the Codex Gigas on the chapel to drive the devil away.


I have written my essay, time for my crucification.
Nick-The-Lizard on Manuel, Corey Hall on Terry. As you can see, I'm only half insane.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by MooCow12 » #607741

I do think Devil should be pushed more towards making other players into his minions/antags and him just organizing them like a sort of demonic mafia godfather with the ability to remotely buff his follows and help them out or provide better equipment/abilities when they come back and give him stuff to work with.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Post by WineAllWine » #608291

EuSouAFazenda wrote:RIP Devil. Eitherway, here's how to fix it.
[...]
I have written my essay, time for my crucification.
Overall, I think this is actually a really good idea of how to make devil fun, especially the bit about being essentially a ghost and unable to directly interact with the round. Some things I diagree with are:
  • DPs are a good idea (need a better name though...) but there should be some way to get more. Maybe either slowly get more or be able to get more from bodies (like revenant)
  • devil touch cooldown is too long. 5 mins is plenty of time to heal any kind of damage.
  • banishing ritual should be more involved/ fun than just take a book to the chapel. it would be cool if it required some sort of departmental co-operation, maybe it needs a couple of different items to work.
  • Personally, i'm not really a fan of job-locked content, ie only the curator/chaplain can do this thing
  • The DP prices are completely nuts. Why are insuls so expensive? the same as 9TC!? Only a bit cheaper than changeling? Why is nightmare more than 3 times ling?
  • You shouldn't be able to use transform on yourself, everyone would just instantly become blob.
  • For that matter blob shouldn't be on the list for others anyway.
  • I'm not sure about possession being any good. Obviously it should be a permenant trauma. The captain could do lots of stuff like trap himself in a glass room, suicide...Feels like a bit of a downgrade from spooky contract ghost.
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