Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

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Armhulen
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Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:19 pm #572898

I love devil's theme, I love their actual form, and everything like that. It's just everything else. Their gameplay is complete doodoo and actively (and almost instantly) ruins the round. How do we fix Devil? I would love to keep em around.

Hrm actually coding feedback is probably better than ideas let me move it
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Cobby » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:37 pm #572899

the entire gameplay banks on the fact you will not kill the devil because he will give you powers, while also banking on the fact you will kill the devil because he is antag.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:40 pm #572900

Cobby wrote:the entire gameplay banks on the fact you will not kill the devil because he will give you powers, while also banking on the fact you will kill the devil because he is antag.

Bingo, ding ding ding. It doesn't even work in MRP. trust me. My first idea was to make the devil somewhat like contractor/heretic in that they'll have one target they force a deal on, and the deal is a choice of downsides the other player must pick. The name also comes with more rituals and other complicated setups to actively and permanently cripple the devil, so it becomes a race to slow ascension with rituals, cripple the devil with them as well, and attack him with his downsides as he continually signs contracts
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby BrotherBeyond » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:40 pm #572901

Any change that'd fix it would have to make the whole signing contract thing not the victim's idea. At least partially.

There are at least 15 tiders on at any time that'd gladly sign a contract for AA. Also each stage should affect something on a station-wide scale. Lights blow out on a part of the station? A light meteor shower? Things like that. Things that make people want to kill that red fucker.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:43 pm #572902

I like the idea of the player having a choice in the matter as that's core devil, but it needs to be them picking a horrible downside instead of them picking what they want, it should be them getting nothing and picking what they don't want the least. Losing their legs, losing their memory, something they can't get back.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:44 pm #572903

the idea of rules that devils absolutely have to follow that make them behave strangely is very cool

ITS A SHAME NO ONE FUCKING FOLLOWS THEM, AND CODE ONLY ENFORCES LIKE A THIRD OF THEM, AND EVEN ROUNDS WHERE IVE LITERALLY FIREBALLED DEVILS FOR DISOBEYING THEIR LAWS DONT STOP THEM CONSTANTLY DISOBEYING THEIR LAWS

FUCKING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Devil could be so fun but I think if you make it too mechanical it'll become metagamable and if you make it too fluffy its unenforceable without admin supervision
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:49 pm #572904

I'm just going to start working on my idea for the rework, but I will be checking in on this thread regularly for ideas.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Critawakets » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:04 pm #572905

The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:05 pm #572906

Critawakets wrote:The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.

We have a beetlejuice component, we could have him stuck in ethereal and only summoned when his name is said three times?
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby BrotherBeyond » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:29 pm #572907

Armhulen wrote:
Critawakets wrote:The devil should be primarily ethereal and only be manifested when he wants to. Omnipotent entity and all that.

We have a beetlejuice component, we could have him stuck in ethereal and only summoned when his name is said three times?


Haha that'd be funny when people just forget and the devil never appears.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby letshavecake » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:25 pm #572910

Other than dumbing down the entire devil concept, the only way to fix it would be to completely rework what an antag even means in this case
It's really hard to get around the fact that it's about giving people what they want, and most people are too anti-fun to want anything other than valids
Without any big structural changes to how the station works and how they would view taking down a devil, the only thing I can think of would be the devil handing out psuedo-antag roles to throw off the rest of the crew and stop the devil from getting immediately gang tackled, but that could easily snowball into a massive clusterfuck

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:45 pm #572911

That's why I'm just going to have the devil force debilitation on people, and they have to pick what they think isn't the worst.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:47 pm #572916

Good downsides? Think opposite of what the devil has now, what with the powers he gives.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby XDTM » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:37 am #572946

An idea would be to move the devil to a side antag, mostly ethereal, that only comes when summoned via beetlejuice or something like that, and offers deals that give a powerful benefit, inflict some kind disability or trauma, and advance the devil's objective. If the devil gathers power, he can become more proactive, first being able to appear uninvited to propose deals, then being able to force 'deals' onto people that fulfill certain random conditions (e.g. people who are not well fed, have bad mood, are stained with blood, and so on); with even more power they can force deals into non-holy people, with ultimate power they get greentext and powerful abilities to play around with to mess with the round as a victory lap.

This way the devil acts as an interactable entity during the course of a normal crew vs antags round, spicing it up without having to be the main driver of conflict. The presence of other antags allows the devil deals to be a bad thing for the crew, instead of being purely beneficial. Even if the antags don't bite, if too many people sign the deals the devil could start becoming predatory, and it becomes important to find out what condition lets him force contracts on people to prevent further snowballing.
I'm not sure how to handle killing devils, since the possibility to do so would stifle the other interactions (tg players can hardly resist validhunting). Either it should be tied to the devil taking a voluntary risk (only when self-summoning?), or it should be limited to reducing his power to prevent forced contracts.

The contracts themselves offer a variety of magic powers, psychic abilities, body modifications, and special traits, chosen by the devil, as well as a penalty, also chosen by the devil. These bonuses and penalties have point values, and the difference between the penalty and the bonus is the profit that the devil gets for his objective. Thus, the devil can't just give the best powers for the lowest costs, but has to convince people to take in bad deals, and seeking out the beggars that can't be choosers, which is a pretty common trope when talking about deals with the devil.

If the idea looks good i might write down a full design doc, i've got some ideas about the details as well.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby terranaut » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:14 pm #572949

remove the triple fireball and make it a little less tanky
dont make round removing a devil hinge on the curator only
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:44 pm #572951

terranaut wrote:remove the triple fireball and make it a little less tanky
dont make round removing a devil hinge on the curator only

it isnt tho? 90 % of the times i just weld into librarian room to get book (cause no one takes it), if devil has already stole it, i just order it from cargo book crate, lawyers are way more usefull than the meme role called "librarian" during a devil outbreak

remove the hulk contract thing its just aids

make the people who take contracts turn into team semi - antags ( sinners? they protect the devil but no bonin) which need exorcision and are weak to bibles instead of LOOOL THANK U 4 POWA NOW I SHOOT U DED

have contracts have like 3 min cooldown

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby saprasam » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:36 pm #572956

cant kill the devil if they own your soul : - )
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby confused rock » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:03 pm #572962

Armhulen wrote:Good downsides? Think opposite of what the devil has now, what with the powers he gives.

First off I love this idea though I think it'd be cool if there were some circumstances the devil would give you a positive effect or maybe for some of his downsides to have upsides as well
I have a couple suggestions like that but all of them could fit in as pure bad if you wanted.. I don't know how big you want these drawbacks to be but minor and major curses maybe?
I hope you'll have a selection of only some of these, so you can't rely on just taking the bad one you're used to.

-Brain traumas would be easy, and looking to them to handpick fun ones would be good.

My unique ideas:

Spoiler:
-*wine blood* the victim's blood is now wine. Do as you want with this, it's too good thematically to not do! Fails-the-straight-line-test-tier-drunk is a really big downside but anything less wouldn't be very bad, so I'm not sure. But it's gotta exist!

-one that could have ups and downs- you pick this downside, then you get to pick a person, and you and them then have their view or maybe even heads swapped, so you see through them. Possibly make it like dullahans in that they can switch to seeing from their body, but blind. I think this would be good for forcing players together, and it would still cause conflict between the two since it applies to two people and one specifically knows the other has caused this bad situation for them. Very crafty uses for it like selecting someone who has been kidnapped to find out where they are or something. It could be random but I think the conflict entailed between whoever picked it and their victim(and them having to work together) would be excellent. Letting the devil choose is probably a bad idea since they would probably powergame it by making them swap with some braindead guy or something rather than making it interesting (which would be hard since they probably know less about the person picking than themself). I REALLY love this idea.

-if you don't like your options, a "random" button that could give you any curse, so the risky option.

-*you forget how to stand.* all knockdowns now force you into resting, and you cannot get up from resting by yourself. An exception could be being able to use a chair to help you get up, maybe.

- your shoes are untied at random intervals, an average of every 30 seconds. You can take shoes off but shoes automatically equip themselves if you go anywhere near them- if you stand next to someone with no shoes, they will teleport from their feet to yours. If you pick this as a digitigrade lizard both of your legs explode.


-*bad luck is coming your way.* Same as the effect from the "FUCK YOU" coupons shaps added on the back of cigarette packets that make vending machines crush you and stuff.


Ideas based on reversed current powers, like two of which are actually good (evil twin mostly)
Spoiler:
-reversed magic- you have the cursed heart effect

-reversed revival- same as the current "steals soul when you die" effect.

-reversed friendship- an evil twin, identical to you, spawns and both of you are teleported to random locations on the station. The evil twin is a perfect clone and has everything you're carrying (if there's an item like the nuke disk, neither of you will get it, and it will be dropped where you signed the contract.) Alternatively everything you have is dropped where you sign the contract and both you and the twin only start with clothes and your ID. Either the evil twin should always have to kill and replace you, should have a vague objective like "make them regret picking this curse". Or a specific, likely malicious, but random objective, ranging from killing and replacing to trying to defame the person who picked the contract to just being evil in general.

-reversed knowledge- either yeah the memory thing which I'd love but I don't know if it could work well on tg, or you are now unable to identify people. Everyone in chat logs, in examine logs, ID cards, everything shows up as "unknown" for you.

-reversed prestige- no ideas that wouldn't be self antagging

-reversed wealth- reverse crab 12 effect, money drains out of any id card in your inventory, going to all the other ids on the station. vending machines are now impossible to use.

-reversed power- clearly the opposite of power is the apc turning off in the room you're in intermittently.
Last edited by confused rock on Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby NoxVS » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:36 pm #572967

Changing the gifts to be stronger and less visible would be nice. I feel like Devil should be a more silent antag, but it can't do that. It has to reveal itself to make any deals.

Also change the end result where too many people giving him souls ends the round
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby oranges » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:46 pm #572970

reuse the sprites for a megafauna and delete the code

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby SkeletalElite » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:07 pm #572981

Maybe change it to where instead of being your character while being a devil you posess people and do your devil thing while controlling them, possession could be temporary and you'll get yeeted out of them eventually. Then the method of apply toolbox to forehead becomes useless because the devil isn't actually the person they're controlling and killing them will result in the devil just possessing someone else.

Maybe make it to where deals are only one part of what a devil does and they also do other antag things.

Alternatively, they could be changed to not have round ending ascension and become a mid round antag.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:09 pm #573043

Make it part of heretics as an opt-in Blood brothers style powerset with the devil and heretic working towards a common goal. Killing the devil would only temporarily banish them if the summoner is left alive, and the devil can revive the summoner with his contract normally, but is under no obligation to greentext wise.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby cacogen » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:44 am #573063

do not reuse the basic devil sprite for a megafauna because it's always looked bad and delete the code

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:16 am #573064

cacogen wrote:do not reuse the basic devil sprite for a megafauna because it's always looked bad and delete the code

Yeah I don't know how to explain it but the devil sprite is THEMATICALLY amazing not like... literally...
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Zack » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:01 am #573078

I've had a ton of ideas across the many times I've played devil but I don't really promise any of them are great or balanced

if forced contracts are unfeasible for any reason, i was thinking the devil could make something like a structure or just a demonic electric printer (it's the 26th century guys) or just leave blank contracts around that any crewmember can pick up, and sign, perhaps choosing a positive/negative (both, not just one) to sell their soul for. if the devil has to absolutely be present for the soul selling, maybe a way to temporarily pacify people they're asking to sign a contract? it'd have to be something that can't be abused. (cooldown? channeled ability?) or the already discussed idea of forceful contracting.

rather than just having a static evolution, maybe let devil spend souls like spellbook points to unlock various powers for more than just hellfire spam? a way to summon imps to serve as weak minions and bring ghosts back into the round that you can do before the GG unkillable god devil form? maybe even slaughter demons when you get a stupid amount of souls? heck, just remove slaughter demons from wizard and bring them to devil. then they'd actually make sense and be more relevant. a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing? everything other than the slaughter demon or fire related stuff should be geared towards helping the devil but not killing people so s/he can actually take their souls. way more abilities than just the stuff i'm listing here, so that there's open-ended play that's fun instead of just the default hellfire and pitchfork which are pretty much solely for defending yourself. (and arent terribly effective at it usually) but it'd have to be done in such a way that it doesn't just become Wizard 2.

on the topic of those weird RP rules that devils have to (but never usually) follow, as well as the topic of that spellpoint-like thing I was talking about, maybe the devil has to pick negative traits as well to buy things? rather than just randomly generated arbitrary actions they have to follow, a set of downsides a devil must accept and take if they want to get stronger. (things like growing their horns early, becoming very obvious to the crew? a permanent speech pattern sort of like the chef's swedish moustache? being instantly and annoyingly and instantly summoned/other dumb effect when someone says your true name? weakness to normal water? instant ashing on holy surfaces?) maybe that's too far, but my general point is while the devil is the focal point of the event they'd be spawning in, they shouldn't instantly be capable of (or even encouraged to) murderbone the entire crew, and should have more than just roleplay weaknesses to show this, only really being circumvented when they reach their final, ultimate, form.

I would say keep the requirement for souls for the devil to revive, but make them harder to just get instantly owned when any random valider finds them. let them take souls from dead bodies? (fresh ones only, maybe? sort of like how revenants do it.) and maybe if possible give a devil an out to escape if they're about to be cremated. (an ability that ashes their current body, but they respawn somewhere on the station at the cost of souls? would they have to purchase this ability, like changeling's last resort?)

how about on the flip side, making chaplain even more relevant? demons of all kinds should fear them. not just the curator and their silly demon book. a way to bring back souls that isn't bureaucratic in nature? crosses? could even go full ham and make that angel wings lavaland thing into something the chaplain can do to a crewmember, perhaps if they take something of the devil's and consecrate it? how much immunity should their null rod grant them?

ill stop before this becomes a super huge essay, sorry if none of this is the direction you wanted to take devil, i'm just offering food for thought on the ideas i've had
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby nianjiilical » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:14 am #573100

one idea i had was letting people intentionally summon devils through a simple ritual, maybe something like surround blood with candles or something and activate it

the ritual could be done even if there wasnt a devil in the round, but if there was a devil theyd get a notification of who summoned them and maybe the ability to teleport to the blood, maybe being invincible while in the ritual zone but pacified so sec couldnt just summon them and then gun them down

this way people who actually want devil powers (antags?) can intentionally try to make a deal, while making sec's job tracking down the devil's boons/banes/name and using that to trap it in a 'bad' ritual or something
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:25 am #573102

nianjiilical wrote:one idea i had was letting people intentionally summon devils through a simple ritual, maybe something like surround blood with candles or something and activate it

the ritual could be done even if there wasnt a devil in the round, but if there was a devil theyd get a notification of who summoned them and maybe the ability to teleport to the blood, maybe being invincible while in the ritual zone but pacified so sec couldnt just summon them and then gun them down

this way people who actually want devil powers (antags?) can intentionally try to make a deal, while making sec's job tracking down the devil's boons/banes/name and using that to trap it in a 'bad' ritual or something

i think this may make them too common of a force
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Whoneedspacee » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:46 am #573240

it would be such a rework that it might as well be a different ass mode, the base that it is on is shit.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Whoneedspacee » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:47 am #573241

oranges wrote:reuse the sprites for a megafauna and delete the code


i would...

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby BrianBackslide » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:41 pm #573397

The Devil is a tempter and should be more capable of engineering situations that make the player WANT to sell their soul. Sometimes it feels kinda pointless to be taking a contract unless you happen to be an antag. You aren't really getting anything out of it that can't be obtained through other, possibly slower, means.

So if Devil is its own round like Wizard then it needs some way to drum up conflict and "gently nudge" people to consider selling their soul. The Devil is more low-key than a Wizard and shouldn't be out in the open until it's started snowballing. Maybe the Devil can have up to two sinners much like apprentices in that they have objectives, powers, and a theme. Unlike apprentices, they are random like traitors/lings/etc. and answer to the Devil. They then get to pick what kind of sinner they are from the seven deadly sins, which determines their powers.

A Sinner of Wrath would be able to hex players such that when they hug people, they hit them instead. (super effective on Manuel)
A Sinner of Greed could drain money from players.
A Sinner of Pride could temporarily revoke access from IDs.

Of course, having a contract with the Devil makes you immune to the Sinners' abilities. Maybe it makes you into a Sinner too?

These are just spitballing ideas. In any case, Devil doesn't work as a solo antag and should either get some assistance or be a midround.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:31 pm #574395

By refactoring code and removing it.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:08 am #574404

Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.

refactoring... what exactly?
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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:48 am #574409

Armhulen wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.

refactoring... what exactly?


I mean completely remove the devil and remove any remnants of it from the current code? A thanos snap.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby ATHATH » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:51 am #574781

XDTM wrote:An idea would be to move the devil to a side antag, mostly ethereal, that only comes when summoned via beetlejuice or something like that, and offers deals that give a powerful benefit, inflict some kind disability or trauma, and advance the devil's objective. If the devil gathers power, he can become more proactive, first being able to appear uninvited to propose deals, then being able to force 'deals' onto people that fulfill certain random conditions (e.g. people who are not well fed, have bad mood, are stained with blood, and so on); with even more power they can force deals into non-holy people, with ultimate power they get greentext and powerful abilities to play around with to mess with the round as a victory lap.

This way the devil acts as an interactable entity during the course of a normal crew vs antags round, spicing it up without having to be the main driver of conflict. The presence of other antags allows the devil deals to be a bad thing for the crew, instead of being purely beneficial. Even if the antags don't bite, if too many people sign the deals the devil could start becoming predatory, and it becomes important to find out what condition lets him force contracts on people to prevent further snowballing.
I'm not sure how to handle killing devils, since the possibility to do so would stifle the other interactions (tg players can hardly resist validhunting). Either it should be tied to the devil taking a voluntary risk (only when self-summoning?), or it should be limited to reducing his power to prevent forced contracts.

The contracts themselves offer a variety of magic powers, psychic abilities, body modifications, and special traits, chosen by the devil, as well as a penalty, also chosen by the devil. These bonuses and penalties have point values, and the difference between the penalty and the bonus is the profit that the devil gets for his objective. Thus, the devil can't just give the best powers for the lowest costs, but has to convince people to take in bad deals, and seeking out the beggars that can't be choosers, which is a pretty common trope when talking about deals with the devil.

If the idea looks good i might write down a full design doc, i've got some ideas about the details as well.

I really like this idea, especially the "point difference" part. Ideally, the devil shouldn't have access to all boons and all drawbacks at once, so that the "meta build" doesn't always get chosen.

I also like the idea of one of the drawbacks being an assassin who can self-terminate at any time (even if he's unconscious and/or dead) and respawn a few minutes later, so you can never get rid of him permanently (although you can force him to tide for gear again). Maybe combine this with the evil twin drawback idea, so you can't just negate the evil twin drawback by finding and icing your un-geared twin?

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby ATHATH » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:55 am #574782

Zack wrote: a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing?

That power exists already, actually: Sintouch, which true devils and ascended devils get access to.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:07 am #574783

ATHATH wrote:
Zack wrote: a way to corrupt crewmembers, sort of like brainwashing?

That power exists already, actually: Sintouch, which true devils and ascended devils get access to.

which is bullshit trust me

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:By refactoring code and removing it.

refactoring... what exactly?


I mean completely remove the devil and remove any remnants of it from the current code? A thanos snap.

this is not what refactor means. refactoring is improving HOW code does something without changing WHAT that code does, AKA the mecha refactor recently just rewrote all the mechas to be vehicles, but there is nearly no differences at all to the players themselves
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby ATHATH » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:49 am #574792

BrianBackslide wrote:A Sinner of Wrath would be able to hex players such that when they hug people, they hit them instead. (super effective on Manuel)
A Sinner of Greed could drain money from players.
A Sinner of Pride could temporarily revoke access from IDs.

God, I absolutely love those wrath and pride abilities (might want to give pride sinners intrinsic AA or something, so that they have something to be prideful over). The greed one's okay, I guess, and definitely in-theme with the sin of greed, but I feel like it's just a bit... weak. Like, the economy system just isn't important enough for that greed ability to do more than mildly inconvenience someone. Maybe the ability to conjure money to bribe the QM with could be better? Or maybe you could give each sinner type a "carrot" ability (wrath could conjure guns, greed could conjure money, pride could conjure (or give themselves intrinsic?) a captain's spare ID card (or just cast Knock with a short cooldown?), sloth could make people unable to feel pain (y'know how Slowpoke from Pokemon take days to react to pain? it'd sort of be like that) or something that requires you to stand still for a while in order to use it, etc.) and a "stick" ability (wrath hex, greed money drain, pride access revoking, sloth movement speed debuff, etc.).

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby BrianBackslide » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:28 pm #575504

Glad you liked my rambling! Coming back to this I think the idea could be refined a bit further. So without further ado...

Poor Unfortunate Souls
You're a Sinner, congratulations! Your job is to help your Devil get those delicious, meaty souls. How? You may ask? Peer pressure and light antagging is one way to do it, but you've been given a small sliver of power by your Devil to help... Smooth things over a bit. Remember though, you're about as hard an antag as an Obsessed or Families member, so killing is okay, but murderbone/blowing up the station is a no-no. Now be a good little Sinner and help your Devil get what they want! Every player that takes a contract and sells their soul becomes a Sinner. (Like Families, it's opt-in)

Hexes and Incarnations
A Sinner gets to choose an incarnation out of the seven deadly sins. These Incarnations grant passive effects and allow a specific Hex for the Sinner to cast upon unfortunate crewmen. Incarnation passives do not stack. A note of warning, though: A player can only have ONE Hex active on them, a Sinner cannot have more than one player Hexed at a time (If you Hex someone else then the first Hex is lifted), Hexes do not work on mindshielded players, and Hexes cannot be used on other Sinners! (We're all one big happy soulless family!) Here's a list of the sins, their respective Hexes, and their passive bonuses.

Spoiler:
Wrath:
Passive: Help intent is now harm intent while near the Sinner. All damage dealt to non-Devil aligned players is increased slightly while near the Sinner. (Go camp medbay, it'll be great)
Hex: The Hexed player will get a positive modlet for attacking another player, and a negative moodlet when they haven't attacked another player in a while.

Greed:
Passive: While near the Devil, the Devil cannot be forced to relinquish its souls. (What's yours is mine. What's mine is also mine)
Hex: The Hexed player will gain a positive moodlet when picking something up/putting an item in their bag, and a negative moodlet for removing something from their inventory/dropping something.

Sloth:
Passive: While near the Sinner, non-Devil aligned players have their progress bar actions slowed and take longer to get up from slips and stuns.
Hex: The Hexed player is forced to WALK. (Oh the humanity!)

Envy:
Passive: (I got nothing here)
Hex: The Hexed player will gain a negative moodlet for not possessing an item that a certain player has. (Like the obsessed heirloom objective)

Pride:
Passive: Devil aligned players near the Sinner gain all access. (But the Pride Sinner does not).
Hex: The Hexed player loses all but basic access to their department. (So a CMO would still have medbay access, but lose Command and CMO access, an Engineer could only get into their department lobby, etc.) Probably not powerful enough

Lust:
Passive: Non-Devil aligned players gain a positive moodlet being near the Sinner.
Hex: The Hexed player gains negative moodlets when not being near a random crewmember. (Like obsessed)

Gluttony:
Passive: Addiction and Overdose thresholds for non-Devil aligned players is significantly reduced while near the Sinner.
Hex: The Hexed player gains one addiction, and their hunger is set to starving.


With all this power though, the Devil looks like it can snowball pretty damn hard even with only one or two Sinners running around. So how do we combat that?

Fighting The Devil
You can still force the Devil to give the souls back unless there's a Greed Sinner nearby. However there are new tools to combat the vile forces of darkness.
Mindshields are very much effective in reducing the havoc that Sinners can wreak on crew, but are not the only way to go about it. The Chaplain can remove Hexes with a bible smack and, in a pinch, Holy Water can be used. Excessive amounts of Holy Water.
In addition, the Curator isn't the only one that can reliably get information out of the Codex Gigas. Normal crew can use it and always get the correct information... At the cost of brain damage and a permanent phobia trauma. (Nerf HARS)

I think changes like these give the Devil a bit more weight on the round, but more importantly give an ICly reason for players to want to sell their soul. (Being that Sinners are more Families type antags)

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby EagleWiz » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:22 pm #575520

Armhulen wrote:this is not what refactor means. refactoring is improving HOW code does something without changing WHAT that code does, AKA the mecha refactor recently just rewrote all the mechas to be vehicles, but there is nearly no differences at all to the players themselves



Player here, there's a difference. The difference is the mechas are semi-broken now.

As for devil, what would be thematic would be to have the devil start out as the lesser of two (or more) evils - something able to make deals that in some way assist the crew/station in dealing with/surviving more immediate dangers, but who is empowered by these deals and becomes a new issue to deal with.
Something like devil spawning during cult rounds where the cult gets some sort of boost to make them more of a threat (or maybe they just get to make deals with the devil as well?) and the devil deals make the crew safer from the cult/better able to take the cult down, rather then just being greytide toys, or a devil acting as a powers arms merchant during a revolution.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:11 pm #575528

I really fuckin wish mechas didnt get through with so little testing considering what it was
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby spookydonut » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:29 am #576250

This PR is up to remove devil https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/53612 and pending some bugs with it I think it has a solid case for being merged.

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Re: Okay seriously guys, how do we fix Devil?

Postby Armhulen » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 pm #576309

Yep, RIP devil
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.


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