/tg/Station 13

Dynamic 2021 is currently going through a series of playtesting, and has currently been on Bagil for a few days, and has been test-merged on Sybil and Terry on January 25th. It has reached its last stage of playtesting for Manuel on January 30th.

PR is here: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56221

I'm interested in those who've gotten a chance to play some rounds with Dynamic 2021 your overall feedback. I have some specific questions as well that I've been asking around

- Do you find rounds to, generally, be more or less exciting? As what jobs?
- Has knowing you can get midround traitor much more frequently impacted the way you play at all? How about the other midround antags (nightmare, blob, etc)?
- On that topic, if you've *been* a midround traitor (AKA sleeper agent), was it enjoyable?

Plus, of course, any other feedback you might have. I'm constantly tweaking numbers, and have been very happy with the pacing of rounds and antagonist drip feeding I've seen.

As it stands, Dynamic 2021 is a significant improvement: more midround antags means more chaos, which is perfect!...

For LRP, however. I would like to suggest that should Dynamic 2021 be fully rolled out on Manuel, edits were made to make more subtle antagonists like sleeper agents, heretic smugglers and (maybe) provocateurs were given higher weight over something less conducive to an RP environment, like a space dragon or swarmers (delete swarmers please). This is not to say I want them phased out, but it's undeniable that Manuel sector prefers less chaos and more RP-speaking as a former LRP player, I can say it's fun for me, but I would still like some breathing room to work on the autism projects Manuel's normally slow-paced environment allows for.

Also, since nukies are a high threat cost, I would like to suggest they are given SLIGHTLY more priority roundstart than anything else-plus, midround nukies should probably have a SLIGHTLY lower threat cost too. It is criminal how rare nuclear operatives are on Manuel, and anyone who's seen me talk there has more than likely seen me bitch about its rarity. Nukies are great, and actually foster a cool "desperate struggle" sense of RP that Manuel doesn't see too often, relative to other antags-revolution, though fun, often devolves into memes about classism, and traitors usually just blow shit up (this is fine, though, it's what those antags do best and it works well).

All in all, it's undeniable Dynamic 2021 is solid (if in need of a few tweaks), but it does need a separate kind of threat weighting to help be more compatible with Manuel's environment.

also give me nukie or I will kill again

My first Dynamic2021 round on Manuel got be bwoinked as a heretic for choosing someone to sac, then me and the sac target becoming revs. Objectives and mechanics that contradict other objectives or the team antag rules should be resolved in code or at least by an admin instead of "get redtexted boooooyyyyyeeeeeee"-

Y0SH1M4S73R wrote:My first Dynamic2021 round on Manuel got be bwoinked as a heretic for choosing someone to sac, then me and the sac target becoming revs. Objectives and mechanics that contradict other objectives or the team antag rules should be resolved in code or at least by an admin instead of "get redtexted boooooyyyyyeeeeeee"-

That's a concern witrh Dynamic as a whole, not Dynamic 2021 specifically, and so is not relevant here.

I've only been on for one Dyna2021 round, but I had fun. Then again, I like my games wacky, wet, and wild.

Fuck greenshifts. If I wanted to spend 2 hours of my life doing nothing but wandering around the station, I'd roundstart observe.

gottingtonballbags wrote:This is not to say I want them phased out, but it's undeniable that Manuel sector prefers less chaos and more RP-speaking as a former LRP player, I can say it's fun for me, but I would still like some breathing room to work on the autism projects Manuel's normally slow-paced environment allows for.

For sure! Manuel is currently using the LRP Dynamic config so that I don't make assumptions without data on what should be lowered and what shouldn't be. I definitely expect to make some adjustments based on Manuel player feedback.

gottingtonballbags wrote: It is criminal how rare nuclear operatives are on Manuel, and anyone who's seen me talk there has more than likely seen me bitch about its rarity. Nukies are great, and actually foster a cool "desperate struggle" sense of RP that Manuel doesn't see too often, relative to other antags-revolution, though fun, often devolves into memes about classism, and traitors usually just blow shit up (this is fine, though, it's what those antags do best and it works well).

With the old Dynamic config, Nuke Ops had much higher threat compared to LRP. Since Dynamic 2021 was designed around the LRP configs, so I *think* you'll get your wish without me doing anything.

Is it possible to finally remove midrounds spawning in at random? I really feel they should be injected in instead.

cybersaber101 wrote:Is it possible to finally remove midrounds spawning in at random? I really feel they should be injected in instead.

Possible, yes, but I personally find this out of scope for this PR, and not super beneficial to the more chaos enjoying LRP servers.

Jaredfogle wrote:

cybersaber101 wrote:Is it possible to finally remove midrounds spawning in at random? I really feel they should be injected in instead.

Possible, yes, but I personally find this out of scope for this PR, and not super beneficial to the more chaos enjoying LRP servers.

What about for manuel?

carshalash wrote:

Jaredfogle wrote:

cybersaber101 wrote:Is it possible to finally remove midrounds spawning in at random? I really feel they should be injected in instead.

Possible, yes, but I personally find this out of scope for this PR, and not super beneficial to the more chaos enjoying LRP servers.

What about for manuel?

I can see the benefit of it on Manuel, so I'd be potentially open to a separate PR to make that configurable.

Could I get some dumbed down detail on this part

"Removes some older, as far as I can tell completely unused admin tools relating to dynamic."

I occasionally see lesser known admin tools getting axed that I find really useful for running certain kinds of events. Any details on what these were?

Stickymayhem wrote:Could I get some dumbed down detail on this part

"Removes some older, as far as I can tell completely unused admin tools relating to dynamic."

I occasionally see lesser known admin tools getting axed that I find really useful for running certain kinds of events. Any details on what these were?

If I remember correctly, it was the "dynamic secret" mode (picks one ruleset, then forces everything else to be traitors), and knobs to adjust the exact curve parameters for threat level. These were removed either for code complexity or because they're configuration now.

Forcing rulesets etc are all still possible.

Thus far, I've played two rounds of Dynamic 2021 on Manuel. Neither lasted more than an hour.

First round: Wizard, Space Dragon, Xenos - three murderbone antagonists within the first 25 minutes of the round beginning. All of these appeared before the shuttle was even able to be called.

Second round: Traitors, Heretics, Space Ninja, Pirates AND Cult. Five different antagonist sets, within 40 minutes, one of which was round-ending and two of which were debilitating to the round's continuation.

As it stands, the alterations that have been made - changing how "mid-round" mid-round antagonists are, changing initial threat, etc. - have not been successful in regards to changing the length of rounds or the balancing of threats. In fact, these are the first rounds I've encountered on Manuel where the Emergency Shuttle's been called before the hour mark in MONTHS, with the exception of Nuclear Operatives.

Valorium wrote: Wizard, Space Dragon, Xenos - three murderbone antagonists within the first 25 minutes of the round beginning.

This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide the round ID of this? The midround timer is, IIRC, 15 to 35 minutes, and shouldn't be firing 3 in the span of 25 minutes. What's more likely to me is these are the secret events, which 2021 does not change?

Valorium wrote: As it stands, the alterations that have been made - changing how "mid-round" mid-round antagonists are, changing initial threat, etc. - have not been successful in regards to changing the length of rounds or the balancing of threats. In fact, these are the first rounds I've encountered on Manuel where the Emergency Shuttle's been called before the hour mark in MONTHS, with the exception of Nuclear Operatives.

This part I can agree on. My plan for this is most likely to adjust the range of the midround timers from the LRP 15-35 to something around 25-50, while keeping latejoins the same (so it's likely that, over the span of a round, there will be more latejoin traitors and similar than midround ghost events). If this is not successful, I will then raise the threat level of the midround murderbone threats.

Okay so Rhials told me this thread was where I should talk about this although it's to be noted that my feedback applies to Manuel where the thing is also active, and the Manuel discord chats about this regularly.


- Rounds have sucked for me, personally, as somebody who likes to MRP and do things like build stuff like rooms, here is one of about a dozen rooms where I wanted to construct something cool but the shuttle gets called circa 20 minutes in because game ending stuff got called in by the powers that be around then. Here's one of about a dozen rooms that I failed to complete because a space ninja filled me with his stars while I worked on a room to house the BSA

Generally speaking I like to either play engie and build something cool/refit a room, or a supply role and make cargo really shiny. I've tried to build the BSA about ten times in the last two weeks but gotten cockblocked every time, just fyi.


Make no mistake, I revel in chaos but like, this is too much too fast for most rounds and I feel like there's no point in doing anything with the exception of starting the SM engine and preparing for evac.



- No, Oddly enough I don't get permadeathed much, so I don't get to enjoy observergang as much and reap the become ghost antag benefits, which is weird.

- It's neat when it happens but too exceptionally rarely for me to comment. I'm a bit of a sperg when I get antag, I also feel like I get cockblocked a LOT, like, way too much, it's really not funny when the game sets all the traitors to be each others' targets. I wanted to unleash a clown bomb on the shuttle once only to get dragged into a closet and sleepypenned, left for dead. Such an unexciting anticlimax that has negative implications because it means that's one less interesting thing that happens in the round.

After reviewing some problematic rounds on Manuel and hearing direct player feedback, I'm raising Manuel's midround injection timer from 15 to 35 minutes to 25 to 40 minutes. This is based on observations that the problematic rounds are caused by the timer constantly reaching the minimum, which albeit unlucky, is still unenjoyable.

If this pattern continues, I will potentially then introduce a minimum time before midround injection, alongside altering the chances of injection.

Aeri wrote:Rounds have sucked for me, personally, as somebody who likes to MRP and do things like build stuff like rooms

Yeah I play Manuel to finish things because the rounds tend to be longer and the idiots murderboning tend to be less, so while I haven't played recently enough to comment on how it is now specifically I don't know why you'd put this there in general. I played one round a couple of weeks ago and the difference was like night and day. Huge server population, all dumb overexcited children. It was like one of the LRP servers. Before the server had a certain level of intelligence and people roleplaying snowflakes who think they're better than you because they take it more seriously than you do. I was there to minmax cargo with bad latency and that takes time.

Aeri wrote:I revel in chaos but like

Exactly, the rounds were boring as shit on every server for several years. I remember, because I would complain about it constantly every shift.

Chaos is fun, unless it's like a ladder to observation. But now instead of complaining loudly that nothing is happening I like to do my job for some reason, and Manuel is perfect for that. Why does every server have to be the modern day equivalent of Sybil1? I don't know the new server stereotypes but from what I hear about Bagil it's full of ESLs exploring the power process. If we already have a powergaming server, why does the designated roleplaying server/furry containment server need to be colonised by these types too?

cacogen wrote: I don't know why you'd put this there in general.

-snip-

Why does every server have to be the modern day equivalent of Sybil1?

-snip-

If we already have a powergaming server, why does the designated roleplaying server/furry containment server need to be colonised by these types too?

Because we're not maintaining two separate games. Any changes made to the /tg/ codebase, by effect, go to Manuel.

This isn't a productive line of discussion.

It's feedback on the test merge. The "productivity" of the discussion doesn't interest me. But if you want the reception to be more positive you should probably keep in mind the effect it will have on Manuel.

If it's pushing Manuel to LRP and ruining the server culture, and that's a config issue rather than something you feel you're able to fix or should have to fix through code, then maybe you should talk to whoever controls the config about it if you don't want people posting about it here.

Things like the space dragon sound like they probably get in the way of people doing their jobs on the LRP servers as well though. The jobs the cannon fodder perform are supposed to at least have the illusion of being able to be completed.

Manuel player here. The new preference for midround antags is much better than before - pacing of rounds is a lot more enjoyable as the chaos ramps up instead of just dropping you in the deep end immediately. It's much more inclined to help create the desired "uh oh, things are getting worse" narrative, which feels a lot better for the stationwide plot.

However, as others have said, Manuel is in dire need of its own configuration for dynamic. I, like a lot of other people, enjoy the chaos of everything going to shit when it's conducive to RP. But rounds happen much too quickly and as the round presses on more and more of the RP is pushed aside to make way for dealing with the threats against the station in a purely mechanical way. A lot of roundstart antags have their spotlight "stolen" to make way for much more destructive midround antags to get dropped into the round at oftentimes an alarming rate. In instances where the station's downfall is due to RP and the crew's incompetence, this can create a really enjoyable story, but when it happens every single round it begins to feel like spending the time to slow down a bit and RP your character is actually counterproductive because without extreme due diligence the station is usually destroyed by the 1-2 hour mark (sometimes even less if things have gotten really bad!)

If you're interested in a personal experience: I play security as my main role, and before dynamic one of my favourite parts of the job was being able to interact with antags in a meaningful way that I felt gave good opportunities for RP - giving them a respectful distance to do their gimmick, and then meeting them halfway with me and the rest of the sec team leading an investigation, trying to detain them (usually nonlethally) and then processing them and dealing with the aftermath. With how dynamic currently works, it feels like this process has been sped up tenfold, and the time for making these interactions meaningful is overshadowed by the fact that in the back of our minds we know that the next threat is coming - so we need to deal with this one quickly so we can move on and be prepared for the next threat. If we slow down too much, then we're overrun and are no longer effective in our roles because we "wasted time" RPing with the previous antags we were dealing with. I feel that this sort of mindset is a bad fit for an RP server.

dendydoom wrote: Manuel is in dire need of its own configuration for dynamic

I definitely know and am working towards this--Manuel is already beginning the process of gaining its custom configuration (midrounds now have different timers, for instance).

If you have specific round IDs that seem problematic, that would help tremendously.

dendydoom wrote: With how dynamic currently works, it feels like this process has been sped up tenfold, and the time for making these interactions meaningful is overshadowed by the fact that in the back of our minds we know that the next threat is coming - so we need to deal with this one quickly so we can move on and be prepared for the next threat. If we slow down too much, then we're overrun and are no longer effective in our roles because we "wasted time" RPing with the previous antags we were dealing with. I feel that this sort of mindset is a bad fit for an RP server.

This is useful feedback, thank you. Out of curiosity, have you played since my post about making the changes for midround timers? Have you felt that an impact from that?

Jaredfogle wrote:

dendydoom wrote: Manuel is in dire need of its own configuration for dynamic

I definitely know and am working towards this--Manuel is already beginning the process of gaining its custom configuration (midrounds now have different timers, for instance).

I guess I sounded against dynamic in principle for Manuel. I didn't mean to. This is good to know.

cacogen wrote:

Jaredfogle wrote:

dendydoom wrote: Manuel is in dire need of its own configuration for dynamic

I definitely know and am working towards this--Manuel is already beginning the process of gaining its custom configuration (midrounds now have different timers, for instance).

I guess I sounded against dynamic in principle for Manuel. I didn't mean to. This is good to know.

Yeah, the impression I got was that you were wondering why Dynamic 2021 was coming to Manuel at all, which has the simple answer I provided.

for the past 5-6 rounds on bagil, i haven't seen a single midround antag spawn despite there being ample threat for atleast one to spawn. did the code break or something

an example, will get more dirt later on when i am not lazy

i stand corrected
low threat levels just suck fat balls

saprasam wrote:for the past 5-6 rounds on bagil, i haven't seen a single midround antag spawn despite there being ample threat for atleast one to spawn. did the code break or something

an example, will get more dirt later on when i am not lazy

yeah

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56905

dynamic lowers antag chance the more alive antags there are, every valentine counted as an antag, ergo 0% chance

Jaredfogle wrote:

saprasam wrote:for the past 5-6 rounds on bagil, i haven't seen a single midround antag spawn despite there being ample threat for atleast one to spawn. did the code break or something

an example, will get more dirt later on when i am not lazy

yeah

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56905

dynamic lowers antag chance the more alive antags there are, every valentine counted as an antag, ergo 0% chance

holy shit thats so stupid

Do valentines have to count as antags for the purpose of this system (or even exist at all)

cacogen wrote:Do valentines have to count as antags for the purpose of this system (or even exist at all)

The PR I linked makes them not count as antags to Dynamic.

Okay Valentine's Day massacre back on