combat mode feedback

[Qustinnus]

post feedback here.

pls read the pr (that includes all the bullet points) before posting

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56601

[Shaps-cloud]

first

[bobbahbrown]

im generally opposed to change, i will see how this plays out.

i was opposed to cloning removal but i was wrong, i stand to be wrong again i hope.

preciously hoarding my decade of nostalgia,
bobbah 'bee' brown

[CoffeeDragon16]

While it's a bit wierd adjusting, I think this is a fantastic PR. It'll smooth out so much stuff, and feel so much more fluid. Paving the way for a ton of cool new stuff, and generally improve gameplay. You did great sticking through on it Floyd. I think a lot of the players who were less enthused on it are swinging around, too.

[hiynastrike]

do I comment here for feedback or on the github?

My big fat feedback

Spoiler:

I already understand that it's either this or intents, we can't have both. And I can adjust to pressing a button to commands I know are help or harm exclusive, what I don't like is the right clicks. I play kinda like a dork, so I right click to see who people are, grab something specific from a stack, and even adjust my suit sensors. And I can't wrap my smooth brain around adding shift to my right clicks. The best solution I can come up with is letting me adjust what clicks or key + click combos do in the keybinds section.

IF THIS WAS POSTED HERE IN ERROR LET ME KNOW

[Qustinnus]

do I comment here for feedback or on the github?

My big fat feedback

Spoiler:

I already understand that it's either this or intents, we can't have both. And I can adjust to pressing a button to commands I know are help or harm exclusive, what I don't like is the right clicks. I play kinda like a dork, so I right click to see who people are, grab something specific from a stack, and even adjust my suit sensors. And I can't wrap my smooth brain around adding shift to my right clicks. The best solution I can come up with is letting me adjust what clicks or key + click combos do in the keybinds section.

IF THIS WAS POSTED HERE IN ERROR LET ME KNOW

no dw this is the right place.

byond kinda sucks in the way it handles clicking, 514 might improve this a bit and then we can maybe use clicks in our keybinds but it is not a guarantee, but I will look into what works and what doesnt when 514 support is in.

on that note, keep practicing, its only been a round, it took me like 2 days to get used to shift right clicking.

[chesse20]

makes it a lot easier to play the only mistake i managed to make was taking off my entire jumpsuit in the first minute of the controls being updated becuase i right clicked my jumpsuit to try and adjust suit sensors

[The_Silver_Nuke]

In general my biggest problem is probably disarm. I've already used F to toggle between modes, so that's not a big deal to me. Shoving when I mean to examine, or examining when I mean to shove is a bit awful. Additionally, when observing I have to be in gamer mode, sitting upright with both hands on my keyboard and mouse in order to be able to examine anyone. I can't just rest my head on my hand anymore and just use one mouse to do everything.

One workaround to this someone brought up, was to rebind everything on my mouse software, but that's not only unfeasible, but it also affects other programs I might be using. I'd very much appreciate an alternative to opening the context menu that does NOT involve using my keyboard.

[ardentarclight]

great job on this, combat mode definitely feels fluid and usable. my main gripe is that its really awkward to pull with control click only, especially when trying to aggro-grab

[Armhulen]

In general my biggest problem is probably disarm. I've already used F to toggle between modes, so that's not a big deal to me. Shoving when I mean to examine, or examining when I mean to shove is a bit awful. Additionally, when observing I have to be in gamer mode, sitting upright with both hands on my keyboard and mouse in order to be able to examine anyone. I can't just rest my head on my hand anymore and just use one mouse to do everything.

One workaround to this someone brought up, was to rebind everything on my mouse software, but that's not only unfeasible, but it also affects other programs I might be using. I'd very much appreciate an alternative to opening the context menu that does NOT involve using my keyboard.

I think you're gonna get into the groove of things with time and the whole shove examine thing will go away...eventually! I also bumble with the same thing and much more since I am locked in my ways but this is pretty dope imo

[Colovorat]

I can finally reply on forum.
'Kay looks cool and all, but maybe more functionality to right click? Like change tools mode(experimental tools mode/welder on/off) yea you can do it with Z or other button, but it's just faster? In general looks fresh and cool, just need more functionality to right click

[Jaredfogle]

I can finally reply on forum.
'Kay looks cool and all, but maybe more functionality to right click? Like change tools mode(experimental tools mode/welder on/off) yea you can do it with Z or other button, but it's just faster? In general looks fresh and cool, just need more functionality to right click

part of the appeal of combat mode was opening up the design space of right click, so you're on the right track. im hoping to get the ball rolling with the recent pr i just made to move ninja sword teleporting to right click

[Dezupher]

Let ghosts keep right click -> drop down menu please.

There's no reason ghosts should have to shift+right click to get the drop down menu and I'm a lazy admin who orbits people and doesn't want to lift their other arm to pull open the drop down menu to check the player panel. Ghosts don't need this change, unless you add ghost shoving so we can shove other ghosts that would be fun.

[Stickymayhem]

Spoiler:

God I'm tired

I'm going to give some feedback with legitimately nightmarish user interface problems, and then someone's going to say "Oh yes that would be a product of weird BYOND behaviour!" and so it can't be fixed without the exciting new system being removed and I'm going to have to live with the addition of yet another thing that makes playing and running events a horrible nightmare of user input blockages, poorly organised buttons and frustrating behaviour.

This has happened half a dozen times over the last 6 months and I don't expect this one to go much different but here we go.

The idea of the system is nice, in actual play it's fine, but when doing ANYTHING administrative it makes me want to tear my fucking hair out because it's so unresponsive.

I submit a video of me doing nothing but spam clicking shift and right click at various speeds in various combinations, attempting to open the context menu up so I can get to the vv menu of one item. It's extremely normal to be talking to people in the chat, and then move on to do an admin command like smite or something, so I leave the chat bar in various states, and the context menu just doesn't activate.

https://streamable.com/lao9bh

I imagine this has something to do with the fact that by now introducing shift into what used to be a simple fucking right click, the textbar is involved and the window won't pull focus under any circumstances.

I would ask that there's a toggle to return to the old behaviour so I don't fucking kill myself thank you. Maybe only while a ghost or as an admin button. This is legitimately making every basic admin action take like 6 to 10 times as long as it used to and when you're running events that involve the quick editing of dozens or hundreds of objects it makes you want to die. Please return the old functionality in some kind of admin toggle I beg you.

[Qustinnus]

I'll look into what I can do for ghosts.

[Stickymayhem]

I'll look into what I can do for ghosts.

thank you sweaty

bee never fixed the whitespace problem and i have trauma

[Qustinnus]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56646

[cacogen]

Should've been test merged to iron out the problems ahead of time and also to see if it's even good or not to begin with

[Qustinnus]

Should've been test merged to iron out the problems ahead of time and also to see if it's even good or not to begin with

almost nothing would have stopped merging maints from merging this anyways. There's also barely any issues, this would've either been testmerged on all servers for a long time which wouldve been way more annoying due to how testmerges affect preferences

[remanseptim]

the way stun batons work literally runs contrary to everything else, with the only justification being 'new players might harmbaton by accident'
the roles of the mouse buttons are reversed compared to other items and that should not be.

[cacogen]

I said this on the PR but it'd be more intuitive to pick up if 1 turned off combat mode the same way 4 turned it on. Also it'd be nice if instead of right-click shoving with combat mode off, it just opened the context menu without the need for shift. You'd get less people asking how to open the context menu now, too.

[Qustinnus]

no, moving controls all the time when you change modes is inconsistent

[cacogen]

I thought you might think that. I was just on Terry for a couple of hours and people were constantly asking in OOC how to right-click things. If it were the same without combat mode, they could turn it off to access the context menu and wouldn't have to ask. It'd also be less of a learning curve if people didn't have to remember to shift+click with it off. I guess the admins will add a notice to the servers explaining the difference in control scheme at some point. But it could be more intuitive than that.

[remanseptim]

no, moving controls all the time when you change modes is inconsistent

inconsistency seems to be an issue w/ some other things, like stun batons.
left click should be harm baton, right click for poking with stunnies.
that's how pretty much every item works.

[Qustinnus]

no, moving controls all the time when you change modes is inconsistent

inconsistency seems to be an issue w/ some other things, like stun batons.
left click should be harm baton, right click for poking with stunnies.
that's how pretty much every item works.

thats what it originally was and i got told to change it by admins, take it up with them.

[Super Aggro Crag]

dont like it very much

[saprasam]

the notion that "this is easier for new players to understand" is so backwards because of all the hoops you have to go through to do things such as looking at items on a tile
the combat's clunky & doesn't feel interesting and i find myself pressing 4 only to turn off combat mode mid-fight because of muscle memory
it has no QoL features for ghosts apparently
oranges speedmerged it even though it's a buggy mess because he hates the playerbase
tl;dr: i hate this so much
it makes me fuming like most other ss13 related things

[Qustinnus]

the notion that "this is easier for new players to understand" is so backwards because of all the hoops you have to go through to do things such as looking at items on a tile
the combat's clunky & doesn't feel interesting and i find myself pressing 4 only to turn off combat mode mid-fight because of muscle memory
it has no QoL features for ghosts apparently
oranges speedmerged it even though it's a buggy mess because he hates the playerbase
tl;dr: i hate this so much
it makes me fuming like most other ss13 related things

it's not a buggy mess lol. It's your right to dislike it but don't bullshit.

[wesoda25]

Most feedback seems to be from the usual crowd who hates change lol.

One thing I will say, if you have combat mode on you shouldn’t be able to switch places with people, I found that pretty frustrating when sparring with people.

[Jaredfogle]

Most feedback seems to be from the usual crowd who hates change lol.

One thing I will say, if you have combat mode on you shouldn’t be able to switch places with people, I found that pretty frustrating when sparring with people.

this was a bug, and a pr is up to fix it

[saprasam]

WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's not a buggy mess lol. It's your right to dislike it but don't bullshit.

listen man when you switch places with people in combat it's obviously gonna make me think it's buggy as hell

[Critawakets]

good PR but the combat mode toggle key should be 1 in order to make it friendy to people who played Halo on the Master Chief Collection where its the Weapon Switch button

[Man_Shroom]

it sucks

[remanseptim]

it's not a buggy mess lol. It's your right to dislike it but don't bullshit.

krav maga had me hugging people in combat mode

[Super Aggro Crag]

Most feedback seems to be from the usual crowd who hates change lol.

One thing I will say, if you have combat mode on you shouldn’t be able to switch places with people, I found that pretty frustrating when sparring with people.

this kind of dismissive pissant attitude is the reason why so many people automatically argue from an emotional stance that coders are a bunch of fart-huffing neurodivergent spergs who seek only to disrupt the game we enjoy for the sake of trying to get their flaccid genitals to twitch slightly

[cacogen]

it's not a buggy mess lol. It's your right to dislike it but don't bullshit.

krav maga had me hugging people in combat mode

That wasn't a bug

this kind of dismissive pissant attitude is the reason why so many people automatically argue from an emotional stance

yup

[Kendrickorium]

I DO NOT ENJOY USING MY FUCKING PINKY FINGER

[oranges]

this kind of dismissive pissant attitude is the weason why so many peopwe automaticawwy awgue fwom an emotionyaw stance that codews awe a bunch of fawt-huffing nyeuwodivewgent spewgs who seek onwy to diswupt the game we enjoy fow the sake of twying to get theiw fwaccid genyitaws to twitch swightwy

[The_Silver_Nuke]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56646

I no longer have any complaints. Just the request to change the button to be a bit more distinguishable from a peripheral view, and that would be it! Thanks for your speedy fix.

[Kendrickorium]

so after a solid hour of attempting to give this an honest shot, no.

just, no.

I fail to see how any of this is "fluid" or "good for the game" beyond opening up the right mouse button for meme click options.

awkward and unintuitive would be the options i would use to describe this

you test merged this once months ago, nobody liked it and for some reason decided to completely merge it on all servers so I cant even go someplace else to play

I can deal with making rwindows hard to destroy or deconstruct, i can deal with tasers and nullcrates being taken away, I can even deal with my two favorite meme shuttles being taken away as most of these are cases of "haha we know better than you"

I loved when the disarm mechanic was changed and it now takes 2 hits of a stun baton to fully stun

as far as i can see this change is just awkward garbage and a classic case of fixing shit that isnt broken because a couple of coders and admins think its a great idea to free up the right mouse click for stuff.

I have yet to see one solid explanation about how this is good other than that, and i'm literally all ears
i'll keep playing with it and hopefully my mind will change but i doubt

[Kendrickorium]

this kind of dismissive pissant attitude is the weason why so many peopwe automaticawwy awgue fwom an emotionyaw stance that codews awe a bunch of fawt-huffing nyeuwodivewgent spewgs who seek onwy to diswupt the game we enjoy fow the sake of twying to get theiw fwaccid genyitaws to twitch swightwy

as hilarious as you are sometimes, I think your a fucking small brained narcissist that throws a cleverly-hidden-with-sarcasm temper tantrum whenever anyone posts something that isn't completely sucking up to a change you decided to make

you arent important and to be honest most of the changes you've made over the 2 years I've played here have been shit.

[Jaredfogle]

yet youre still playing, so we must be doing something right

[The_Silver_Nuke]

This is a spicy conversation. I'm not going to defend @Kendrickorium or anything, but I do see where they're coming from in regards to unilateral codebase changes. It can be difficult to feel that your voice is heard when changes are pushed through despite user feedback. In regards to continuing to play despite the changes and just sucking it up, many players choose to do so because they love the game and the community despite rampant autism and difficult decisions. That's my two cents on the matter. Other than that, the two posts he wrote up to this point are full of gay baby rage, and should probably provide legitimate feedback and suggestions.

[cacogen]

this kind of dismissive pissant attitude is the weason why so many peopwe automaticawwy awgue fwom an emotionyaw stance that codews awe a bunch of fawt-huffing nyeuwodivewgent spewgs who seek onwy to diswupt the game we enjoy fow the sake of twying to get theiw fwaccid genyitaws to twitch swightwy

as hilarious as you are sometimes, I think your a fucking small brained narcissist that throws a cleverly-hidden-with-sarcasm temper tantrum whenever anyone posts something that isn't completely sucking up to a change you decided to make

you arent important and to be honest most of the changes you've made over the 2 years I've played here have been shit.

He doesn't mind disapproval, provided the focus is on him and it creates a demeaned response. That's power.

[Yenwodyah]

yet youre still playing, so we must be doing something right

Yes well done on not sucking every last ounce of fun out of the game (yet)

[saprasam]

play on tgmc
we have intents

[Jaredfogle]

for now

[steampunch]

Honestly I'm so-so on this one. I like some of the features like being able to shove on command, but ultimately combat doesn't really feel simplified much to me. Intents were sorta intuitive and after a little experience with them you got the hang of the motions, pressing 3 and then grabbing someone was almost second nature. Now to grab someone I have to CTRL click, but that's still two button presses, and the old was the same amount. Other things like examining a tile got more inconvenient as well. Admittedly a lot of the jank comes down to having to relearn the motions, but the ones I've gotten used to today don't feel like a step up OR step down.

[BadSS13Player]

Can you make this thread a poll?

[BrianBackslide]

I rebound the "1" key to also switch on/off combat mode. Feels so much better than "f" or "4".

Only a few things that really bother me:
Deconstructing things with right click feels weird.
Combat mode feels a little "sticky" to turn on/off... Doesn't seem to always happen immediately.
You have to shift+right click to open additional options for your inventory. (Turning on suit sensors and using the seed extractor, for example)