/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Honestly I'm so-so on this one. I like some of the features like being able to shove on command, but ultimately combat doesn't really feel simplified much to me. Intents were sorta intuitive and after a little experience with them you got the hang of the motions, pressing 3 and then grabbing someone was almost second nature. Now to grab someone I have to CTRL click, but that's still two button presses, and the old was the same amount. Other things like examining a tile got more inconvenient as well. Admittedly a lot of the jank comes down to having to relearn the motions, but the ones I've gotten used to today don't feel like a step up OR step down.

Can you make this thread a poll?

I rebound the "1" key to also switch on/off combat mode. Feels so much better than "f" or "4".

Only a few things that really bother me:
Deconstructing things with right click feels weird.
Combat mode feels a little "sticky" to turn on/off... Doesn't seem to always happen immediately.
You have to shift+right click to open additional options for your inventory. (Turning on suit sensors and using the seed extractor, for example)

BrianBackslide wrote: You have to shift+right click to open additional options for your inventory. (Turning on suit sensors and using the seed extractor, for example)

These should be bound to right click, full stop, if they're so important.

I asked someone to make right clicking on a jumpsuit open the suit sensors menu without having to traverse through any menus. If they don't do it soon I will. Feel free to do this with the seed extractor too if it has some verb I'm not aware of.

Lovin this, I'm sure I'll get used to the new examine controls, great job, my ONLY ISSUE is that 'combat mode' sounds so fucking stupid, can we just change it back to harm intent? I know nobody is forcing anyone to say combat mode, but when trying to move around in a cramped space, and someone says "Get out of combat mode, god dammit!" all I can think of are robotic crewmen turning their hands into knives and guns. If 'intent' is a term we are trying to move away from, perhaps "Harm inclination" could be a possible replacement?

the main reasons is that citadel already had a ton of icons for combat mode which I could use (we have a lot of UI styles)

Getting used to this is going to be hell, I fully believe that it'll be good long term though.

Just add a normal right-click menu instead of disarm when combat mode is off and see the problems people are having with it disappear

Probably not any worse than intents, but not any better, either.

Edit: Except for batons, those need to be switched back to normal ASAP

cacogen wrote:Just add a normal right-click menu instead of disarm when combat mode is off and see the problems people are having with it disappear

no. we're already binding things to right click when combat mode is off. this is non negotiable.

What if.... Examine mode? Like you have a litte magnifying glass button next to the combat toggle. Turn it on to get examine right clicks, turn it off to beat people or whatever people do with right click without the intention of examining it

Edit: What if you could have little buttons that set what your right click does? Like sure you could still use Crtl-Click or Shift-Click to grab and examine, but like toggle buttons that set right click to do a specific action

MOCKUP:

I've come up with 4 actions you can specify Right click to:

EXAMINE: Opens the drop down menu for additional options
GRAB: Grab and pull what you click
ROB: When done to other players, opens their inventory
THROW: Hurls whatever is in the player's hand at where you click

hiynastrike wrote:What if.... Examine mode? Like you have a litte magnifying glass button next to the combat toggle. Turn it on to get examine right clicks, turn it off to beat people or whatever people do with right click without the intention of examining it

Edit: What if you could have little buttons that set what your right click does? Like sure you could still use Crtl-Click or Shift-Click to grab and examine, but like toggle buttons that set right click to do a specific action

MOCKUP:

I've come up with 4 actions you can specify Right click to:

EXAMINE: Opens the drop down menu for additional options
GRAB: Grab and pull what you click
ROB: When done to other players, opens their inventory
THROW: Hurls whatever is in the player's hand at where you click

cute picture and you know i like you but this is problematic for ux, like i said a big part of combat mode is that we can finally bind right click to things now. we're using this not just for combat related stuff, but we're rolling it out to much more just "alternate actions" for things that used to be on alt click or just nowhere because theyre tile based for instance. by adding any extra difficulty to this, we lose massively because now our right click functionality is not as intuitive as it could be, and we end up going back to the modal-like system that we wanted to avoid with combat mode

hiynastrike wrote:whatever the fuck

This is either excellent satire or an absolutely flat-faced rebranding of the help-shove-grab-hurt system and I love it.

Jaredfogle wrote:

cacogen wrote:Just add a normal right-click menu instead of disarm when combat mode is off and see the problems people are having with it disappear

no. we're already binding things to right click when combat mode is off. this is non negotiable.

Can't it just open the context menu if there's no right-click function though?

cacogen wrote:

Jaredfogle wrote:

cacogen wrote:Just add a normal right-click menu instead of disarm when combat mode is off and see the problems people are having with it disappear

no. we're already binding things to right click when combat mode is off. this is non negotiable.

Can't it just open the context menu if there's no right-click function though?

I'm not sacrificing consistency for the sake of some people who can't get used to shift+right-click.

The answer is no on a technical level too, anyway. BYOND gives us extremely little control over the right click menu. We won't know if an item should show the context menu until it's too late.

It's not sacrificing consistency if both are possible it's maintaining the old method for people who don't know about the new one or haven't gotten used to it yet and accidentally do the old one from time to time but good to know it's impossible anyway now I can stop arguing about it thank you

Jaredfogle wrote:and we end up going back to the modal-like system that we wanted to avoid with combat mode

Combat mode is already a modal system, just worse because it only has 2 modes.

Jaredfogle wrote:I'm not sacrificing consistency for the sake of some people who can't get used to shift+right-click.

It's not about getting used to it, it's permanently worse than just right click. You use the context menu a lot more than you use shove, except when you're in combat, where you use shove a lot more than you use the context menu. Having it modal is just better UI.

BadSS13Player wrote:Combat mode is already a modal system, just worse because it only has 2 modes.

In case you weren't aware, four is a bigger number than two. There were four intents (help, harm, disarm, grab).

Jaredfogle wrote: It's not about getting used to it, it's permanently worse than just right click. You use the context menu a lot more than you use shove, except when you're in combat, where you use shove a lot more than you use the context menu. Having it modal is just better UI.

You are under the assumption right click will only be shoving. You will come to realize very shortly this is not the case, as we roll out more and more to right click.

Jaredfogle wrote:In case you weren't aware, four is a bigger number than two. There were four intents (help, harm, disarm, grab).

Yes, that's why I said two is worse.

Jaredfogle wrote:You are under the assumption right click will only be shoving. You will come to realize very shortly this is not the case, as we roll out more and more to right click.

The uses of right click so far all seem to be niche usages like wrenching tables or related to combat like the proposed gun secondary fires. The earlier

Is there supposed to be a sound when combat mode is acrivated, by the by? Since it's borrowing from previous iterations, I know those used a sound. Helps with working out if you toggled or not.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Is there supposed to be a sound when combat mode is acrivated, by the by? Since it's borrowing from previous iterations, I know those used a sound. Helps with working out if you toggled or not.

theres an option for it but floyd fucked up and so its only on by default for new players. go in your ooc preferences

Ah cool beans.

Since combat mode is staying around, can the icon be a bit more obvious as to which state its in? Currently there's only the little border that shows if you are in or out of combat mode vs the bright green/red that help and harm would be. Basically it would look similar to what the borgs have if anything/placeholder.

i agree, i wanted a subtle vignette around your screen.

add depth of field and camera shake to simulate adrenaline

It's going to take a while for me to get used to and has some bug but otherwise, it not great but not bad either. My only major problems are the weird flipping the sprites do in combat and the fact that the commands for when you bring up the list of items in a stack don't work.

Papastink wrote:It's going to take a while for me to get used to and has some bug but otherwise, it not great but not bad either. My only major problems are the weird flipping the sprites do in combat and the fact that the commands for when you bring up the list of items in a stack don't work.

Not sure what you mean by weird flipping, but that second issue with the right click context menu should be fixed, if it comes up again shoot an issue report up onto the github so we can deal with it

TheFinalPotato wrote: Not sure what you mean by weird flipping, but that second issue with the right click context menu should be fixed, if it comes up again shoot an issue report up onto the github so we can deal with it

Whenever I hit someone or something in combat mode or use a melee weapon my sprite appears five tiles away upsidedown but my hitbox is in the same place. The same thing happens whenever a monkey or player hits me.

That’s a known bug and existed before combat mode. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/55842

why does it make the lifeweb noise when you press 4

i stole it from citadel who credited interbay not realizing lifeweb also uses it, and when I asked them they said lifeweb also got it from another source so dunno.

its a sound i did with my mouth in a call with randy, and i expect royalties

It's super inconsistent between HUD themes but for several of them the buttons to toggle combat mode on/off look nearly identical at a glance and it's hard to tell whether it's enabled or not

whoever thought of the idea of adding 9 different UI styles can go fck himself tbf. it's made any UI improvements ass to do

You could just remove all but like 2 or 3 either based on a poll or just whichever you think look best

im still confused on why we can't make those dynamic

I know I'm not particularly attached to the amount of choice because the option is in Preferences amidst a tonne of other things and you can't preview them so I picked one based on the name and completely forgot about it. If it was a dropdown at the top and you could change them on the fly (maybe this is already possible) then maybe I'd care more about the prospect of losing some of them. I seem to remember they're all ugly and it's filled with retro ones that look worse though.

iirc our ui settings are:

- the default, and color variations on the default. internally, these are all separate sprite sheets which is a massive headache. ideally, this should be dynamic.
- glass, which IS dynamic. excellent work. if possible i'd like to see glass and the default merged in terms of effort needed to add a new ui element. i'm not sure how hard this is to do, as i haven't taken an extensive look at the dmi's myself, but ideally ui icons would be on their own, and uis distribute different frames
- retro, which i'd like to run an extensive analysis on to see how many people have. ideally i'd like to get rid of it, since it adds unnecessary work to ui designers, and our ui sucks so bad that i don't want anything to come in the way between an artist and the implementation

encountered a bug on a tg based server where switching between hotkey and classic mode sometimes made right click bring up verbs instead like it used to and sometimes do its intended functions post-intent removal, dunno if this happened elsewhere to anyone else though

also could we please add a toggleable "legacy right click" function or something please? i know it sounds weird but i play classic all the time rather than hotkeys and it's really awkward having to reach over to shift from arrow keys every time i want to right click and look at some stacked stuff on a tile

thanks for the read and the updates x

encountered a bug on a tg based server where switching between hotkey and classic mode sometimes made right click bring up verbs instead like it used to and sometimes do its intended functions post-intent removal, dunno if this happened elsewhere to anyone else though

that server probably didn't update their skin.dmf, where the shift behavior is managed

also could we please add a toggleable "legacy right click" function or something please? i know it sounds weird but i play classic all the time rather than hotkeys and it's really awkward having to reach over to shift from arrow keys every time i want to right click and look at some stacked stuff on a tile

no, because we're binding a lot to right-click and don't want anything limiting that

There might be room for letting people choose a different key than shift. Don't hold your breath on it happening though since the way the right click menu toggle works is quite a pain.

to clarify, it's impossible to bind context menu to anything other than right click + some kind of modifier

After having some time to get used to it, I find it to be a lot more intuitive than the previous system. It feels like a natural progression that builds off of the stun and shoving reworks that were implemented last year. Overall, great stuff.

Can you believe I cane here just to comment on this feature?
Well, know it's BRILLIANT!

Made the very old martial arts actually useable without much effort.
And I can picture it doing interesting things, like making a spear a melee weapon with one click and throwable with other, creating alt-fire with weapons, alternative uses for objects by hand or turf, different behavior for vehicles based on clicks (imagine a flying bike with guns and missiles or a cart with accelerate and brake,... and this is the killer-app n feture form for those things to happen.)

And since intents aren't used here for passive defense of any sort, I don't think anything is going wrong with this gameplay-wise.

Now what I noticed in gameplay?

- StunBaton is looking WEIRD. You can't kil l mice in maint with it whatever combat mode is On or Not. Still going to try again with other keys and I noticed the comment above. (Why not turnig it into a close contact stun-gun thingy or whatever, if it isn't to behave like a baton/club?)

- I can't drag pets, small bots (medibot, beepsky,...) or lavaland fauna corpses. (If it's a feature and not a bug of this implementation or if there's a whole new way to drag those, please someone tell-me.)

- People are randomly pushing me around and some are excusing themselves.
A small problem with players from other servers not getting accostumed I think. (Can you place a warning for them by startscreen, character login message or something?)

Now going to the code wich I dived into out of curiosity.

Whatever you chage this:
if(T != target || shooter.a_intent == INTENT_DISARM || shooter.a_intent == INTENT_GRAB)
For this:
if(T != target || (modifiers && modifiers["right"]))

You are risking eventual coders from other bases to come here and not understand the context.

(I would place a handler or something to change this "right" into a "rightclick" if I were you.)

Also?

Looks like now the monkey will be pissed by getting disarmed as if they were being harmed. (Unless I didn't paid enough attention. I may be wrong on this one.)
But if I am right, is it to be like that?

(Nah, don't change it at all if it was intended. A monkey in real life is quick to go aggro if someone annoys them. )

the rare positive feedback

SardarKreuz wrote: - I can't drag pets, small bots (medibot, beepsky,...) or lavaland fauna corpses. (If it's a feature and not a bug of this implementation or if there's a whole new way to drag those, please someone tell-me.)

CTRL-click for small mob dragging is broken, but you can still pull them by shift-right clicking and selecting pull from the drop down menu.

Farquaar wrote:...
CTRL-click for small mob dragging is broken, but you can still pull them by shift-right clicking and selecting pull from the drop down menu.

Oh my, I would entirelly miss this. Or have to code-dive.

Thx a lot Farquaar.

(Whatever this issue have something to do with combat mode or not, it's needing a fix certainly.)

oranges wrote:the rare positive feedback

Thz too, Orange.

I didn't played vanilla TG for a long time and this feature really caught my attention.

Looked intuitive because I was already accostumed to middle click alt-firing in TGMC. (It's the grenade launcher in rifles there, and xenomorph special attacks.)

Having a middle click (with "shift-click" as alternative command) as an action command was already good, but having the right click useable now is even better.

To tell a personal story?

Long time ago, I did some tests with a SS13 combat system that had emphasis on martial arts.

Had nothing to do with replacing intents. (It even used the grab, disarm and harm intent like they were a sort of "paper, rock and scissors" modifier over RNG results.)

But as you may had already guessed, we heavily implemented the same "combo" method of SS13 martial arts (Plasma Fist, Flying Carp, CQC, etc).
Only we had this on weapons too.
And needing to switch intents with 1234 keys in middle of combat for combos and special moves was totally lame.

With some playtesters noticing the handicap imposed on gameplay by the keyboard command style.
(And also how unfair of an advantage someone using a macro capable gamer mouse had over people playing with a regular one. )

On that, I can't even remember how many times I pressed Q, E or R myself, instead of a number key and it totally ruined the intended result with tragicomic consequences.

Gun dropped in middle of firefight. (Our alt-fire was intent based.)
Expensive sword being tossed, embedding on giant monster and being lost for the entire fight.
Etc...
GAAAAAAAH!!!!!!

So?
What got implemented here in combaat mode is an amazing feature.
A total killer-feature for action themed gameplay in SS13!