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Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:58 pm
by Jalleo
I honestly don't agree with what Steelpoint has been pushing for.

If a secborg is rogue its because something else happened one person should not be almost impossible to take down.

We need secborgs to be strong for malf and for when the AI is subverted and everything else its important to have a strong but low amount of certain creatures in game. In our sake that is the borgs. If we have strong borgs yes people complain they are op compared to normal people but they are balanced to be op in only their specified place.

A engineer can pickup a gun vice versa a sec officer can pick up a wrench and gloves and whatnot. Sec Borgs are only strong at stopping threats they can't do anything else.
Same with engineering borgs which were unaffected but they can only fix something or modify something via cutting or fixing wires almost nothing else seriously.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7390

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:00 pm
by Steelpoint
I think you should have pointed out exactly what I changed.

Security Cyborgs have had their AdvTaser replaced with a Disabler.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:04 pm
by Bombadil
Steelpoint wrote:I think you should have pointed out exactly what I changed.

Security Cyborgs have had their AdvTaser replaced with a Disabler.

Perhaps unlock their taser along with the laser with illegal modules/emag?

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:24 pm
by Incomptinence
He really hates antagonist cyborgs too.

Really I would have preferred ion guns fitting in backpacks and giving a second one to the RD.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:25 pm
by Scott
Requiring security cyborgs to get close to stun someone would leave them more vulnerable to getting stunned and emagged.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:30 pm
by Incomptinence
Or hey flip side making them vulnerable to disablers.

Would still have a ranged advantage but could be taken out that way.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:42 pm
by Scott
What would the effects be?

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:54 pm
by Incomptinence
Could just give borgs stamina and make them suffer personal range emp/stun/knockout if the run out of it.

Wouldn't be very non thematic since stamina has little in game reference or indication.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:57 pm
by Violaceus
PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:00 pm
by Incomptinence
Rogue AI actually has a major need for combat borgs though.

Borgs should probably have some active active indication. Should be possible as modules have their toolsets set in stone.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:11 pm
by paprika
Borgs don't need ranged stuns

I can ruin people as an engie borg because le stun arm, and the sec borg has a better version of that it can beat people with. Plus a laser.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:36 pm
by Cik
just do note that with every change to secborg you are massively nerfing malf and traitor AI, which rely overwhelmingly on secborgs as footsoldiers and enforcers. considering that when you are loud you will have to fight with groups of humans while (usually) completely alone. this change makes it much harder to do that, and in particular makes fighting anything with an ion rifle a complete suicide mission. before at least you could deal with it by simply stunning the carrier (though if he had backup, it would just likely be picked up again) but now? you are effectively forced to play rocket tag with a minigun. it's not a good picture. unless secborgs somehow outnumber sec you're probably toast, almost regardless of skill.

personally i don't think it's necessary, and in particular i take issue with alot of the complaints that secborgs are too common, considering they are one of the only "interesting" borgs to play (the other probably being engiborg) as medi/service, while not pointless are very simple and do not really have lots of opportunities for fun interaction and play.

i also don't like the fact that unless there is an enormous uproar about it it will probably become permanent, as how many people on the forums even play secborg? i can think of about 4, including myself and all do not like this change, for varied reasons.

really, i would like a far more well-explained rationale for why this in particular is being changed. is the problem that secborgs are too good when antagonist? non-antagonist? if either of these is the case you should nerf one and not the other. blanket changes like this change the balance of several game modes without necessarily needing to. if it is that they are too good at fighting security, then change the ion rifle or add ion pistols, if they are too good at fighting the non-sec crew, add a few items (laser pointers?) or give more flashes out.

(probably irrevocably) changing something that effects how the secborg handles in every environment when only a small change to a specific environment requirement seems overbearing, not that i necessarily agree that secborg is too strong.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:51 pm
by Violaceus
PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:55 pm
by cedarbridge
Cik wrote:just do note that with every change to secborg you are massively nerfing malf and traitor AI, which rely overwhelmingly on secborgs as footsoldiers and enforcers.

Quoting this because I expect others to parrot it a lot. I'd like to see the data that shows a malf AI with a secborg is instantly more successful than a malf AI with any other borg. I'd also like to know why people think that something unbalancing outside of a special and uncommon antag condition is ok because it helps to balance said antag condition. I'm pretty sure that the data I just asked for doesn't exist, but I can say that its been my experience that secborgs were and are not what I (as an AI player) would call "essential" to a malf or traitor AI. I actively discourage borg players from selecting security borg during my AI rounds because I feel they are more detrimental to both gameplay and the average player's ability to abide by ASIMOV and policy while also running around with a taser and cuffs pretending to be security.

Violaceus wrote:It's really ridiculous when I see someone saying

>borg players
>security players
>medbay players

like people would stick to only one fucking role and never play another one. Most of people have preferences, obviously, but as far as I observed people change their jobs a lot. One round I want to play captain, another one as cook to rest after stressful role, and next one maybe as janitor because I want to.

Therefore "X players" simply do not exist and your argument about srs secborg players there is wrong, as I used to play much as security borg and I agree with that change.
Its not really that out there. People tend to stick to certain roles they know well or specialize in. There's a reason you always see Reed in chemistry and Dreams-of-Trees in mining. Their players have a personal draw to that job most of the time and that reflects what they want, expect and look for in gameplay or playstyle. There are definitely people who play borg specifically to play secborg.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:11 pm
by Cik
secborg players are not necessarily secborg only of course (in fact, i prefer engi/mediborg generally) but I (and at least 60-70%) of other borgs that i regularly see playing generally leave the final word in module choice up to the AI, if there is one. because AIs do generally like to have sec/engieborgs (as they provide the most "direct survival utility") you will end up playing one of these two much of the time, over something like say medical which while helpful and nice to have are not 'essential'

really this is probably due to secborg/engieborg having noticeable and easy to see benefits over human crew with the same job, while mediborg / serviceborg at least are not that much better.

engie / sec noticeable improvements over humans (that directly aids their function)
fireproof
no oxygen requirement
tough, difficult to stun
tools are at or above "average human equipment" for respective department (engieborg massive tool suite + RCD, secborg taser? maybe not so much in secborgs case)

for the mediborg i guess you get out of the box regenerating omnizine, but in most other cases it's not more useful than a human doctor, and indeed less versatile (can't perform surgery / only one extra chemical due to beaker)

serviceborg is just useless as far as i can see and only real 'purpose' is spamming dosh.

but anyway, i do think there is an unjustified secborg boogeyman out there, and i'm not sure if that's historical or what. i still play human roles regularly, sec/detective/engineer/chief engineer and the shit secborgs i've run into could be counted on one hand. from what i gather, this isn't the typical experience so. no idea what that is.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:26 pm
by Violaceus
PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:28 pm
by Cheimon
I agree, it's not unusual to play as one particular role. Hell, I used to play just to be a sec borg.

As far as I'm concerned the tasser to disabler switch seems fair, though it may change dynamics a little bit. It's certainly a lot harder to successfully take someone down with a disabler, although it does let you do certain things like shoot through windows.

For me the biggest problem with security borg (and this isn't a major problem either) was to do with intents and the baton. The borg has two intents: help and harm. If it wants to arrest someone, it should ideally pick 'harm' because that stops the perp moving straight through it. However, that means it can't baton them any more (because that will harmbaton them, giving them brute damage, breaking laws) and it can't point blank taser/disable them (because that will pistol whip, for some ridiculous reason). This in spite of the fact that in melee combat, you almost always want to be in an intent that blocks your opponent from going straight through you. It makes the cyborg's stun baton a far less useful tool than it ought to be. If the intention system was changed to allow a third intent for cyborgs that blocked movement but did not result in harmbatoning the security cyborg would be much more capable with a baton, and so this nerf to disablers instead of tasers would be that much less damaging. (Replacing that baton with something that could not deal brute damage would not be a helpful change, since it would remove sec borgs from one of their most important weapons when rogue/attempting to kill something permitted by laws, like carp or changelings).

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:23 pm
by Incomptinence
The less combative borg modules could use a dash of combat relevance in default and hacked.

I mean pap crows about stun arm but it is usually stun arm RCD made hole in the floor or 15 damage welding that brings home the bacon. Service borg also gets a stun arm and you don't hear nerf herders shivering about its terrible trays.

Janitor borg could use a better brute weapon on that note also.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:05 am
by paprika
None of those things are ranged stuns.

That is what this is about.

I don't care about borgs having ridiculously powerful adjacent/melee stuns, because they can get dunked in melee by chain flashing (even though they can randomly burn out, still, leaving you completely fucked...)

I care about the balance of the game being upset by sec borgs having a TINY list of shit that stuns them at range vs their near-infinite ammo taser that poops on basically anyone, even hulks. I should have kept it to disabler only when I made my stun changes and shouldn't have given them a hybrid taser.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:26 am
by lumipharon
This is what I will do, and any other mildly robust security person will do, when confronted with a sec borg post change.

A wild borg appears!
Borg used disabler/laser!
It's not very effective...
Robust Mcredshirt used flashbang!
It's a one hit KO!

Unless you literally just stand there and take a face full of lasers/disablers, you will ALWAYS be able to throw a flashbang before getting taken down.
Now of course a lone sec officer might very well get critted before the flashbang goes off, and dies anyway, but in most situations, the borg is now at a severe disadvantage, as it has to do some serious vtec duking to try avoid flashbangs, because lelfullscreenrange.

Incomptinence wrote:The less combative borg modules could use a dash of combat relevance in default and hacked.

I mean pap crows about stun arm but it is usually stun arm RCD made hole in the floor or 15 damage welding that brings home the bacon. Service borg also gets a stun arm and you don't hear nerf herders shivering about its terrible trays.

Janitor borg could use a better brute weapon on that note also.


All borgs when hacked are fine at robusting people.

Sec borg has lasers
Medborg has acid rape
janitorborg has unlimited lube works
Service borg has prod and stun beer (only good for stealthy work, but hilariously good at that)
Mining borg gets diamond drill (does it also get prod? I can't remember) which is fairly robust damage, and can also drill walls, so it has some utility.
Engineering borg has prod, but it's already robust as shit because as said, RCD and welding tool.

I don't think there's any reason to make non hacked borg better at combat, as they all have very specific roles, most of which don't revolve around combat.
Sec borg already has harm baton and shit, mining borg isn't really good at fighting mining mobs because module juggling and takin damage cripples it, but eh.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:34 am
by paprika
So sec isn't a complete pushover against silicons anymore?

Cool, antags should be avoiding sec and not taking them face on. This is the entire point of security. You shouldn't need to be robust as shit to fuck up tin-can IBM pieces of shit as security.

The idea is to take out security initially, using your stun batons, when they don't suspect you, or to avoid them and pick them off with lasers. It's totally doable and now not gg no re if 1 sec borg is good with his taser.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:59 am
by Saegrimr
lumipharon wrote:Service borg has prod and stun beer (only good for stealthy work, but hilariously good at that)


Speaking of stealth service borgs.

The violin is a 10 brute weapon.

And is completely silent. No hit sound.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:04 am
by paprika
Preeeeetty sure that was fixed recently

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:20 am
by cedarbridge
Saegrimr wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Service borg has prod and stun beer (only good for stealthy work, but hilariously good at that)


Speaking of stealth service borgs.

The violin is a 10 brute weapon.

And is completely silent. No hit sound.

Not 10 brute. 10 points of silent irony

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:21 am
by Saegrimr
I'm not sure if its funnier that its silent, or if it made a TWANG in the spirit of El Kabong.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:00 am
by Incomptinence
Well I didn't know violins were decent weapons. Thanks.

Death mop is stupid though.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:34 am
by Cik
paprika wrote:So sec isn't a complete pushover against silicons anymore?

Cool, antags should be avoiding sec and not taking them face on. This is the entire point of security. You shouldn't need to be robust as shit to fuck up tin-can IBM pieces of shit as security.

The idea is to take out security initially, using your stun batons, when they don't suspect you, or to avoid them and pick them off with lasers. It's totally doable and now not gg no re if 1 sec borg is good with his taser.


>malf
>where you literally have to generate a giant warning siren with big red CODE DELTA letters
>avoid security

how to fight ion with disabler give tips pls

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:38 am
by Steelpoint
Space the Ion Gun when no ones looking, silently kill Security personal. You can still stun baton them.

If your not going to go to the effort of knocking out security, who possess many of the Silicons hard counters, the you only have yourself to blame.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:53 am
by Cik
>space the ion gun

this is about as helpful as saying to someone who is confronted with a rampaging secborg "just flash 'em bro"

if security is anything but absolutely terrible they will immediately notice and probably kill you, then dunk the AI. unless security is two people the warden will be around, you will have to walk past him and you will have to drag the ion gun, which you cannot conceal out

as a counter this is honestly ridiculous, you might as well tell an assistant to just disarm a traitor shooting them to death with a revolver

technically it's possible, but it should never happen assuming they aren't absolute retards

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:02 am
by cedarbridge
Cik wrote:>space the ion gun

this is about as helpful as saying to someone who is confronted with a rampaging secborg "just flash 'em bro"

if security is anything but absolutely terrible they will immediately notice and probably kill you, then dunk the AI. unless security is two people the warden will be around, you will have to walk past him and you will have to drag the ion gun, which you cannot conceal out

as a counter this is honestly ridiculous, you might as well tell an assistant to just disarm a traitor shooting them to death with a revolver

technically it's possible, but it should never happen assuming they aren't absolute retards

You're missing a lot of the dynamic in malf. Borgs are disposable. Its very rare that borgs live long after the delta goes active anyway. You're a pawn, not an all-powerful supersoldier.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:33 am
by Incomptinence
That was borgs very rarely surviving in malf with taserborgs. Which were being proclaimed as all powerful supersoldiers. Will the disabler borg be able to delay and kill enough meat tide scum to make malf wind more than a remote hijack the shuttle level possibility? Let's wait and see!

You are not talking balance you are setting up the game on an intensely personal scale where you rate everything against your single character alone in solo combat. AI antags fight stations not paprika or steelpoint..

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:32 pm
by cedarbridge
Incomptinence wrote:That was borgs very rarely surviving in malf with taserborgs. Which were being proclaimed as all powerful supersoldiers. Will the disabler borg be able to delay and kill enough meat tide scum to make malf wind more than a remote hijack the shuttle level possibility? Lets wait and see!

You are not talking balance you are setting up the game on an intensely personal scale where you rate everything against your single character alone in solo combat. AI antags fight stations not paprika or steelpoint..

You're working on some sort of assumption that malf AIs can't win without secborgs in either of their forms. This is totally without basis.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:40 pm
by paprika
if malf ais can't win without sec borgs having tase and lase, that is a problem with malf ai.

they can, but people are simply scrubs and don't move their core or shunt to different apcs and just rely on hacked secborgs. seriously, rebalance malf AI if malf AI is too weak against a full crew.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:48 pm
by Scott
You're working on some sort of assumption that a lone Security officer with all the equipment he carries every round cannot beat a rogue security cyborg.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:19 pm
by Incomptinence
cedarbridge wrote:You're working on some sort of assumption that malf AIs can't win without secborgs in either of their forms. This is totally without basis.

Wrong I was distinctly talking about the probability and even then I mentioned needing to wait and see. Is a malf AI less likely to win without a security borg? Darn tootin it might just be! Security borgs are good fighter engineering borgs are okay fighters and the builders, they stall the crew enough for the malf AI to have better chance.

I would like the malf AI to be more independent but it would need to be much more powerful on its own. Setting shit on fire and using harshly finite use abilities isn't a good enough repertoire to hold off up to 60 people all alone, unless they are incredibly stupid and ignore enough hacked apcs for the countdown to be very VERY fast.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:33 pm
by Cik
honestly steelpoint, please post your thoughts on whether secborgs in the context of malf are too strong and need nerfing. please tell me also if you think that the AI wins too often in malf rounds

because you are going to effect both of these things a huge amount with this change.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:02 pm
by Raven776
A malf buff can be distributed elsewhere if this nerfs malf too much.

Disablers are not as shit as people seem to think. A lot of fights devolve into disabler shoot outs due to higher ammo count, longer range, and the fact that they go through windows.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:13 pm
by Loonikus
Raven776 wrote:A malf buff can be distributed elsewhere if this nerfs malf too much.

Disablers are not as shit as people seem to think. A lot of fights devolve into disabler shoot outs due to higher ammo count, longer range, and the fact that they go through windows.


Fucking this. Disablers are not nearly as bad as people say they are. The only reason they are "shit" is because they aren't instant gg no re fight enders like tasers are. Just because they are inferior to tasers does not mean they are useless shit.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:13 pm
by Jalleo
Disablers have their benefits yes but a adv taser was the best of both worlds for a sec borg. (disabler + taser)

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:42 pm
by lumipharon
A flashbang will beat a disabler wielding borg almost everytime.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:18 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
I laugh when I see people saying "Just space the ion rifle/HOS with the proposed instant-win gun/captain/entire sec force", it's basic gameplay".

If you can space the ion rifle on a 70-pop sybil round with full security, I'm impressed. Taking down the HOS, who is almost never alone, heavily-equipped, generally one of the more robust players on station and who packs a belt full of flashbangs, gets a flash at roundstart, and can get you blown with a simple ":c H-h-e-e-eelp B-b-l-ow- B-b-b-borgs!"? I'd like to see you try, if it's so basic, easy, and simple that it counterbalances loss of stuns/overpowered win guns.

Hell, he doesn't even have the weakeness of most crew which is lasering them into crit before they can scream thanks to his 3robust armor.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:12 pm
by cedarbridge
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I laugh when I see people saying "Just space the ion rifle/HOS with the proposed instant-win gun/captain/entire sec force", it's basic gameplay".

If you can space the ion rifle on a 70-pop sybil round with full security, I'm impressed. Taking down the HOS, who is almost never alone, heavily-equipped, generally one of the more robust players on station and who packs a belt full of flashbangs, gets a flash at roundstart, and can get you blown with a simple ":c H-h-e-e-eelp B-b-l-ow- B-b-b-borgs!"? I'd like to see you try, if it's so basic, easy, and simple that it counterbalances loss of stuns/overpowered win guns.

Hell, he doesn't even have the weakeness of most crew which is lasering them into crit before they can scream thanks to his 3robust armor.

So what you're saying is, if the borg can't solo the whole sec force and 1/3 the station its now strong enough? Get out.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:38 pm
by Scott
It couldn't with a taser either, unless the security team is two people.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:52 pm
by cedarbridge
Scott wrote:It couldn't with a taser either, unless the security team is two people.

That's more or less the point. There's no reason to complain either way. On a high-pop station it is tough to be a rogue anything. The existence of a single gun on the station that can disable a borg at range (as opposed to all of the guns that can disable humans on the station but DON'T disable borgs at all) is hardly an imbalance.

Also, whining that "they can just blow the borgs!" is a lazy argument because if you're doing anything loud enough to warrant being blown the AI should have already disabled comms or blown up the RD console.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:06 pm
by Scott
There is a reason to complain because the nerf was unjustified and actually makes the security borg less useful.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:14 pm
by cedarbridge
Scott wrote:There is a reason to complain because the nerf was unjustified and actually makes the security borg less useful.

You realize my post was referring to the bit about ion guns right? The thing I quoted? Please pay attention top context.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:22 pm
by flazeo25
Tested out the disabler for secborg for a couple of rounds and it makes secborg very unplayable since disablers are bad at stunning a person even after 4 hits while running.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:58 am
by Cipher3
flazeo25 wrote:Tested out the disabler for secborg for a couple of rounds and it makes secborg very unplayable since disablers are bad at stunning a person even after 4 hits while running.

Four hits in decent succession will take someone down.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:05 am
by Steelpoint
Three disabler hits will stun most people, only people wearing armour can tank four or so hits.

Re: Sec Borg change

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:23 pm
by deathhoof
My experiance with this so far:
>be listening to security channel
>fuggin lorenzo stole all the shit, arrest he
>go to hop line with wirecutters and cut out the mounted flash
>sec borgs comes along and disablers me
>i run straight at them as they shoot because i know they wont do enough damage to stop me and I flash them
>use the borg as a shield against security
>they laser the borg to death in an attempt to stop me