Carbons breath more and faster #57989 (Return of the Internals Nerfs)

[Not-Dorsidarf]

So I'm making a feedback thread because I'm not sure the Github page is the right place to talk about it, but.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/57989

Why does this PR need to exist? Like, the idea of carbons breathing faster and using up/processing more oxygen is an interesting one, but it's transparently clear that this is just another attempt to reduce internals without directly repeating the

same PRs over and over again.

I've never seen any real justification for it either beyond "10-14 minutes of emergency air per person is bad balance", which is a statement not an argument.

I don't particularly feel that the internals amount is too generous, especially given the recentish atmos changes that made depressurisation and gas flood events so rapid.

Am I missing a serious balance implication here, beyond "People don't instantly ggnore when the window in primary hallway is smashed out and depressurises"?

[Mothblocks]

I'm pretty sure he's the only one who really wants it. I haven't seen any maintainer, especially not Lemon who has de facto authority over the scope of atmospherics, enthusiastic about this idea at all. Rounds are meant to last 90 minutes--the current 15 or whatever minute tank length is perfectly fine enough given that design motive. Dying to gas is not fun. Dying to plasmafires, now that's a different situation--that's a much more interesting story. I think if Ghilker's ultimate goal is to make atmos more deadly and require more interaction from the crew, then making gases more interesting to interact with in the same way plasma does now is the way to go.

[XDTM]

I can see why making breathable air more valuable would be attractive. A very frequent trope in space-based media is the danger of running out of oxygen, and SS13 as it is now simply is way too generous to make that a concern. A hallway that has been vented to space is not a roadblock that requires a spacesuit, it's a minor annoyance that requires you to put on the mask that you start with, and use a minor portion of your large supply of oxygen (which you can refill from the large amount of spare tanks strewn around the station).

Whether oxygen scarcity could make the game more or less fun is another matter entirely, though. Personally I'd kinda like to see if a deadlier environment might help with shaking up rounds in a way that does not require direct antag activity. But it's definitely possible that such a change would just make the game more frustrating instead.

[Mickyan]

Ultimately none of these proposed nerfs really make oxygen scarcity more interesting, at best they're encouraging rushing spare tanks for fear of being left without one, or hoping atmos will do their job (funfact: if you're in a situation where air is a station-wide problem, there's a 95% chance of rogue atmos techs)

If you want to make oxygen valuable start at the source and add an actual challenge to keeping the air breathable, instead of being something that will only ever comes up when there's a traitor

[PwntQ]

This is not fun and doesnt make the game more fun or interesting, just makes its worse

[Ghilker]

I feel like people take breathing for granted, in most rounds you don't even need an internal to breathe and if you do the issue becomes a minor inconvenience of just taking the tank and go on your merry way without a second thought or a doubt.

Atmos doesn't feel impactful, many people don't even think about what they are breathing, and that's fine when everything is right and working, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a nuisance.

This change doesn't make the round oh so impossible to deal, but when there is danger with air, you are to get a little bit more proactive, and not "eh the emergency tank in the box in my backpack will last for so long that the shuttle will be here and in centcomm before it runs out"

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I feel like people take breathing for granted, in most rounds you don't even need an internal to breathe and if you do the issue becomes a minor inconvenience of just taking the tank and go on your merry way without a second thought or a doubt.

Atmos doesn't feel impactful, many people don't even think about what they are breathing, and that's fine when everything is right and working, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a nuisance.

This change doesn't make the round oh so impossible to deal, but when there is danger with air, you are to get a little bit more proactive, and not "eh the emergency tank in the box in my backpack will last for so long that the shuttle will be here and in centcomm before it runs out"

Well the issue with this is that atmos leaks are something widespread that affect vast areas of the station invisibly with immense ease, and are something the average crewmember cant do anything about anyway. Crew outside engineering only care about atmos in that its something unfun that completely denies them from accessing whatever part of the station (public hallways, services, their workplace) if they don't have internals ready. As long as the internal system itself is anything other than a binary "You are prepared and will not die" vs "You are not prepared and will die", people will always be upset about you taking away their ability to be prepared

[Ghilker]

Well the issue with this is that atmos leaks are something widespread that affect vast areas of the station invisibly with immense ease, and are something the average crewmember cant do anything about anyway. Crew outside engineering only care about atmos in that its something unfun that completely denies them from accessing whatever part of the station (public hallways, services, their workplace) if they don't have internals ready. As long as the internal system itself is anything other than a binary "You are prepared and will not die" vs "You are not prepared and will die", people will always be upset about you taking away their ability to be prepared

I agree, but without starting those changes, atmos will always be binary of gas or no-gas.

What this will change is the time you get between getting on a gasmask and "oh shit my O2 is running out"

There will be other consequences as well, but they should me mostly minor and only a test merge can fully answer those

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Well the issue with this is that atmos leaks are something widespread that affect vast areas of the station invisibly with immense ease, and are something the average crewmember cant do anything about anyway. Crew outside engineering only care about atmos in that its something unfun that completely denies them from accessing whatever part of the station (public hallways, services, their workplace) if they don't have internals ready. As long as the internal system itself is anything other than a binary "You are prepared and will not die" vs "You are not prepared and will die", people will always be upset about you taking away their ability to be prepared

I agree, but without starting those changes, atmos will always be binary of gas or no-gas.

What this will change is the time you get between getting on a gasmask and "oh shit my O2 is running out"

There will be other consequences as well, but they should me mostly minor and only a test merge can fully answer those

I think you're approaching this the wrong way.

People tried a lot of things to change the binary win/lose condition of hard stuns and balance it, like reducing the duration, making stuns more or less rare and difficult to get, but no matter what we only actually broke the stun dichotomy when they were completely (or almost) replaced by the more complex stamina damage / knockdowns vs paralyse system we have now, after a lot of fumbling attempts to meet the idea half-way.

If you want to break away from the internals binary of "I'm completely immune to gas effects" vs "I am completely being affected by them and helpless", I don't think adjusting the duration or making them more or less rare is the right way to go about doing it. If that's what you want to do, maybe you should be starting with this radical future system you anticipate as a follow-up, then adjusting gases and times to fit with the new system rather than the old.

[Mothblocks]

i still can't figure out why "taking what you're breathing for granted" is a bad thing

[XDTM]

i still can't figure out why "taking what you're breathing for granted" is a bad thing

To see their point, you could imagine a scenario where everyone started with a spacesuit in their box that lasts 15 minutes (rechargeable). It would trivialize the danger of being exposed to space, making several areas easier to access, removing a potential avenue for murder, making the previously limited and controllable EVA equipment almost completely redundant. In many ways it would remove complexity and danger from the game.

And yet, if spacesuit boxes were as entrenched as internals boxes are now, i'd bet there would be a similar reaction to an attempt to remove them.

[chocolate_bickie]

Breathing is one of the least fun parts of the game. If you run out of oxygen you have maybe a minute before you black out, at which point you are relying on other people to save your ass.

Atmospheric issues such as plasma fires at least have interesting counter plays, you can avoid them, rush through them and extinguish yourself or fight them.

O2 issues have none of that. It isn't visible, unlike plasma fires and nitrogen, air vents extremely fast so it's unpreventable once started and the crew has basically no tools to re-pressurize the area unless they have an atmospheric technicians, most of who don't play the roll to patch air holes.

The only saving grace is that internals are accesable and thankfully grants you enough O2 to avoid dealing with an unfun and non-interactive game mechanic.

Whoever is coding internals nerfs needs to understand that there is nothing most crew can do about O2 leaks which is why everyone starts with internals.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

i still can't figure out why "taking what you're breathing for granted" is a bad thing

To see their point, you could imagine a scenario where everyone started with a spacesuit in their box that lasts 15 minutes (rechargeable). It would trivialize the danger of being exposed to space, making several areas easier to access, removing a potential avenue for murder, making the previously limited and controllable EVA equipment almost completely redundant. In many ways it would remove complexity and danger from the game.

And yet, if spacesuit boxes were as entrenched as internals boxes are now, i'd bet there would be a similar reaction to an attempt to remove them.

True, and yet spacesuit / pressure / cold resilience is far more granular, with a variety of different levels of protection you can achieve to incrementally increase your resistence to a breach hazard - one of which is of course an internals setup.

Meanwhile, again, internals is a binary "You have it and are completely safe from atmos until your invisible timer runs out" or "You do not have it and are at the mercy of whatever is (or isnt) in the air

[XDTM]

i still can't figure out why "taking what you're breathing for granted" is a bad thing

To see their point, you could imagine a scenario where everyone started with a spacesuit in their box that lasts 15 minutes (rechargeable). It would trivialize the danger of being exposed to space, making several areas easier to access, removing a potential avenue for murder, making the previously limited and controllable EVA equipment almost completely redundant. In many ways it would remove complexity and danger from the game.

And yet, if spacesuit boxes were as entrenched as internals boxes are now, i'd bet there would be a similar reaction to an attempt to remove them.

True, and yet spacesuit / pressure / cold resilience is far more granular, with a variety of different levels of protection you can achieve to incrementally increase your resistence to a breach hazard - one of which is of course an internals setup.

Meanwhile, again, internals is a binary "You have it and are completely safe from atmos until your invisible timer runs out" or "You do not have it and are at the mercy of whatever is (or isnt) in the air

That's definitely true, and i guess a similar approach should be taken for lack of air and other gas hazards in a rework, to let non-engineers interact/react to breaches and so on, before thinking about removing internals boxes.

[Qustinnus]

I'm pretty sure he's the only one who really wants it. I haven't seen any maintainer, especially not Lemon who has de facto authority over the scope of atmospherics, enthusiastic about this idea at all. Rounds are meant to last 90 minutes--the current 15 or whatever minute tank length is perfectly fine enough given that design motive. Dying to gas is not fun. Dying to plasmafires, now that's a different situation--that's a much more interesting story. I think if Ghilker's ultimate goal is to make atmos more deadly and require more interaction from the crew, then making gases more interesting to interact with in the same way plasma does now is the way to go.

dying to gas is not fun but what is fun is having to plan for situations like this to occur. if dying to gas is not fun was a real reason we would remove the need to breathe, which would solve the entire problem in that case, but that would obviously make no sense. I don't see how scarcity == you will die to this thing

[Critawakets]

if dying to gas is not fun was a real reason we would remove the need to breathe

we did its called self-respiration

[cacogen]

dying to gas is not fun but what is fun is having to plan for situations like this to occur.

I think cargo can order orange tanks so if you're a cargo tech (which is a role greatly underutilised by the vast majority of people who play it) this only consists of buying small orange tanks to take up precious box slots that will last you for the rest of your life. Otherwise, it involves going through O2 lockers until you have two or three blue emergency oxygen tanks so when the atmosphere leaves out of a hole into space (which I learned recently is easily fixed by just turning up the pumps on the distro loop because atmos techs don't exist or don't do it) you're prepared.

[CPTANT]

This is somewhat related, but I think people should really get feedback on how much air they have remaining. You can see tank pressure but you have to manually check and make a calculation yourself.

I think a timer that pops up when your air gets low would help build tension and prevent a bit of the binary yes/no feeling.

[Mothblocks]

i think there's some value to having to shift gears immediately but i think that's interesting enough to warrant a trial run

[TheFinalPotato]

I mean the pressure of the tank is technically displayed, but it's kinda shitty. It'd be a pain to implement a close to out of blank, so maybe making that less crappy would help?

[Mothblocks]

Anything to kill the stat panel

[MisterPerson]

There could be screen alerts for when your tank is low.

If someone wants to get real fancy, we could even show % remaining on the tank itself.