Page 1 of 1

Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:52 pm
by Ghilker
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/58038

Leave feedbacks, ideas, comments, questions here on the new pipes (yes, they'll be the only pipes)

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:23 pm
by Saege Tilth
A lot better than I thought it was going to be. For a second, I thought you did to the pipes what they did to the electric circuits. As for the layer adapters themselves, it's good they still have a purpose. This has a lot of potential for adding a shit load of layers and also potential for people to really mess things up. Hopefully it works out well for maps when the new pipes are put in.

EDIT: Some places like the super matter might have issues on certain maps with the conversion due to pipes in the cooling loop being too close, but I don't think it'll completely ruin them. The color coding thing is everything.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:43 pm
by oranges
>For a second, I thought you did to the pipes what they did to the electric circuits.
I did

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:33 pm
by Scott17
I don't know if it had anything to do with this, but there were no pipes on the map, PERIOD.

I have nothing else to add.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:48 pm
by TheFinalPotato
What round id?

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:18 am
by NotVerySmart
Its a good idea, but maybe colors that are similar (Violet and Amethyst) should be removed, as its hard to tell the difference between the two at a glance

--

After having played with it more, I feel as if it should be optional because a primary issue is pipes autosnapping together when you really dont want it to. It has good intentions but it just fails to deliver on the simplicity atmos already has with pipes.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:39 am
by Kassori
Tried to put 3 scrubbers in toxins, "smart pipes" did not link

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:49 pm
by Narskop
- Layer adapter not working as a pipe bridge ruin a ton of setup
- Pipe Bridge being a special pipe and not automatically added is a pain. Also Pipe bridge prevent from linking any other pipe to it
- Color separation of pipenet overcomplicate pipes for no reasons. We already have 5 layers, and in it's current state the PR does not permit to have several pipenet of various colors on one layer, so the color separation serve no purpose aside from bullying you to use grey everywhere. This also mess up very badly with any modification of roundstart piping
- Device being colored, if color separation stay, will just make you waste more space on most setup. All devices should be grey, like they always have been.

Overall, for a "Smart" system, it requires a LOT more thoughts from the user than the previous one. Making the "pipenet=powernet" is missing about 90% of the Atmos system subtilities and it shows in usage. If color separation of pipenets goes away and some previous functionalities are restored (most especially making all devices act as a pipe bridge and pipe bridge being automated like it was before), then I can see it being a net benefit, after all of the bugs are fixed.

In it's current state, please never merge this thing.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:03 pm
by Ghilker
A lot has changed now, please read the PR body to learn how to use the new pipes
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/58038

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:45 pm
by mindstormy
I only played a little bit so far, but I think my biggest complaint is I can't weave pipes in weird directions that I want without it snapping them to what direction it THINKS I should go which reduces the fun of making my pipes look pretty, or hiding pipe stuff from the AI or folks who don't understand the pipes. Its seems much harder now to do basic things like getting pure o2 in the mix line for turbine work. I think I need to test it more to get a feel for how this works and time to see other folks examples of proper pipe shenanigans. But given I was not a fan of how wires changed and this seems like kind of the same thing, I think I will just have to live with this feature and not moan about it.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:44 pm
by Capsandi
I still don't see the value in color separation, 5 layers is all you need and the separation of colors is really annoying to work around. The rest of the changes are great for usability, but are nullified by the constant need to go back into the RPD ui to change the color, and if you cant find an RPD then your SOL. Its for no benefit whatsoever because you can only have 1 pipe on a tile, I really see no point in this. I see potential in smart pipes, but for now they aren't an improvement over the old system because of this aimless complication.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:10 am
by toadtheloser
Needing to use a pipe bridge is the bane of my existence.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 pm
by oranges
Capsandi wrote:I still don't see the value in color separation, 5 layers is all you need and the separation of colors is really annoying to work around. The rest of the changes are great for usability, but are nullified by the constant need to go back into the RPD ui to change the color, and if you cant find an RPD then your SOL. Its for no benefit whatsoever because you can only have 1 pipe on a tile, I really see no point in this. I see potential in smart pipes, but for now they aren't an improvement over the old system because of this aimless complication.

why do you constantly need to change colours? you should only be laying one network at a time?

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 pm
by oranges
toadtheloser wrote:Needing to use a pipe bridge is the bane of my existence.

it'd be nicer to just be able to click drag one pipe colour to another on the same tile with a wrench in hand and have them bridge automatically tbh.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:52 pm
by mindstormy
So after a bit more testing I think there are two big things this feature needs.

  • Just get rid of the whole colors being their own pipe network thing. It makes changing layers and colors at the same time take way to much space and is just generally frustrating to deal with. If you get rid of this, then you can toss color adapters too as they are just unneeded
  • Make pipe snapping toggleable. I personally HATE them snapping together as pipe work is always super finicky and any mistake is quite unforgiving to fix. A single mistake should not ruin 30-45 minutes of work.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:24 pm
by Ghilker
oranges wrote:
toadtheloser wrote:Needing to use a pipe bridge is the bane of my existence.

it'd be nicer to just be able to click drag one pipe colour to another on the same tile with a wrench in hand and have them bridge automatically tbh.


it already places a bridge pipe automatically when placing a pipe on top of another one on the same layer and with different colors.

mindstormy wrote:
  • Just get rid of the whole colors being their own pipe network thing. It makes changing layers and colors at the same time take way to much space and is just generally frustrating to deal with. If you get rid of this, then you can toss color adapters too as they are just unneeded


that's impossible, the pipes would just snap to each other at will without any control.

mindstormy wrote:
  • Make pipe snapping toggleable. I personally HATE them snapping together as pipe work is always super finicky and any mistake is quite unforgiving to fix. A single mistake should not ruin 30-45 minutes of work.


can't make them toggleable (it would be like allowing to choose between old pipes and new pipes). You can make them not snap toghether by using the different colors available and the 5 layers the pipes can be placed to.

As a side note, i'm still working to improve the pipes, it has just been just shy of 2 days now and many are still with old pipes mindset. Try them more and don't use meta setups anymore, have more creativity and use colors and layers, remember that all components can be colored, layer manifolds too.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:39 pm
by mindstormy
Ghilker wrote:As a side note, i'm still working to improve the pipes, it has just been just shy of 2 days now and many are still with old pipes mindset. Try them more and don't use meta setups anymore, have more creativity and use colors and layers, remember that all components can be colored, layer manifolds too.


Maybe you or someone else could update the wiki with how we should do things in the new pipe mindset? I watched the video that was posted on the pr but it still doesn't click with me. Even something as basic as getting the o2/plasma line setup for turbine is stupid complicated now. Some gifs would really really help here. Should I just stop using colored pipes at all if I want to kind of ignore that part of it?

I think I fundamentally disagree that pipes should `snap` to other pipes. It is just far to unforgiving to mistakes without a easy way to de-gas a pipe section, which could be a neat way to resolve this but doesn't exist yet.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:53 pm
by Ghilker
I will update the wiki and try and make a few gifs on how to work with the new pipes

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:53 pm
by oranges
Ghilker wrote:
oranges wrote:
toadtheloser wrote:Needing to use a pipe bridge is the bane of my existence.

it'd be nicer to just be able to click drag one pipe colour to another on the same tile with a wrench in hand and have them bridge automatically tbh.


it already places a bridge pipe automatically when placing a pipe on top of another one on the same layer and with different colors.

oh that seems fine then, people are just going through an adjustment period.

I'd love to know why that one person is constantly switching colours though

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:12 pm
by Capsandi
oranges wrote: I'd love to know why that one person is constantly switching colours though

Switching colours isn't needed too often, your right, unless your fixing issues with the SM. It can get a bit unwieldy when working around the gas filter array during a delam, and placing a grey pipe which the RPD defaults to moves N2 into the waste disposal injector. Though I've only attempted to fix 2 delams while this has been merged, and it may be a matter of getting used to the system, I still don't see a reason for having more than 5 pipenet separators when 2 of the 5 layers are never used.
Actually, in the time since my first post, I've realized that layers may be the less effective option due to the inability of switching layers on the same tile in which a component is placed, so I suppose now the question is why convolute the process with layers when coloured piping is more compact?

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:02 pm
by oranges
personally I'd do away with layers, and just have it that if you want to join two pipes on any tile you just drag them together with a wrench or some other tool, and otherwise they're just seperated by colour

a lot of atmos mains seem to think you need layers & colours, but frankly I don't see the need, you only ever have independent networks that you want to join at carefully curated points.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:37 am
by Ghilker
https://imgur.com/a/BDueHKa

I made a few videos on how the pipes work, just a few seconds long, showcasing the basics of the pipes

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:49 pm
by mindstormy
You should add what color a pipe is to the examine text like it shows for layers so colorblind folks know what color the pipe is.

Re: Smart Pipes TM

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:54 am
by Jaredfogle
I agree, but it should also show it in the name of the pipe itself so you can just hover over.