/tg/Station 13

The current design of certain research nodes (in particular illegal tech) makes the gameplay frustrating because it is almost impossible to get the node within the short rounds we have on TG. I know illegal tech is supposed to be a bit difficult, but it is too much.

For example I tried to get a desynchronizer (which is illegal tech but not harmful nor antag in itself) and even after opening illegal tech quickly (had to go in Space to get a camera bug), after an hour of round in high pop, I was still very far from getting it.

The current design is frustrating because prerequired nodes and experiments are too many and too time consuming to allow the use of certain tech/items even at mid round. It's like certain things are obtainable in theory but in practice too late to be useful and worth investing time for. So basically it's frustrating and sub optimal gameplay. It's rare enough to be antag, making this role interesting for the round should not require such big efforts.

In fact experiments should only be used for getting disconts, not as a prerequisite, otherwise it's just too damn difficult. The game is rich, but it is limited that way and don't match the pace of current rounds on TG.

In my opinion that's one of the reasons antags too often grief in a way that is not sophisticated : it's just too difficult to elaborate complex strategies. Coders should do something about that and make research nodes more accessible considering the usual length of rounds.

(for those who have read the same post on digg, I just send the message where it is most appropriate)

good

It seems to me that coders aren't interested in how things actually play out and changing things to fit reality.

cacogen wrote:It seems to me that coders aren't interested in how things actually play out and changing things to fit reality.

There's a perception of that, but that's not the reality. Oranges has a design philosophy, we're just not sure what it is. Seems to me Coders have a "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" approach to balance. Seems that way from what they did to genetics anyways.

Helios wrote:

cacogen wrote:It seems to me that coders aren't interested in how things actually play out and changing things to fit reality.

There's a perception of that, but that's not the reality. Oranges has a design philosophy, we're just not sure what it is. Seems to me Coders have a "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" approach to balance. Seems that way from what they did to genetics anyways.

To be a bit more specific, I'm pretty sure that the two major design rules here are that A) You aren't meant to be able to research everything in an average round, and B) Illegal tech in particular is meant to be hard to get.

Konork wrote:

Helios wrote:

cacogen wrote:It seems to me that coders aren't interested in how things actually play out and changing things to fit reality.

There's a perception of that, but that's not the reality. Oranges has a design philosophy, we're just not sure what it is. Seems to me Coders have a "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" approach to balance. Seems that way from what they did to genetics anyways.

To be a bit more specific, I'm pretty sure that the two major design rules here are that A) You aren't meant to be able to research everything in an average round, and B) Illegal tech in particular is meant to be hard to get.

Tl,dr: No fun allowed

short rounds is not a coding issue its a playerbase issue

cocothegogo wrote:short rounds is not a coding issue its a playerbase issue

obvious

cocothegogo wrote:short rounds is not a coding issue its a playerbase issue

So we do nothing? It's considering the thing a bit like religious dogma. I mean, reality is what it is, shouldn't the game try to take that into account?

Illegal tech is not supposed to be easy to get. But it's not supposed to be awfully difficult either. Being antag is rare enough, we should not be obliged to spoil 3 or 4 rounds as antag to get an interesting tech just before end of round... Otherwise getting the tech is just a theoretical possibility

Lyude75 wrote:

cocothegogo wrote:short rounds is not a coding issue its a playerbase issue

So we do nothing? It's considering the thing a bit like religious dogma. I mean, reality is what it is, shouldn't the game try to take that into account?

correct, the target is 90 minutes and we will simply modify the code to suit until we get there.

we're designing for the long term. designing around how every round is 20-35 minutes is lazy and bad for the long term health of the game

My biggest problem with it is the requirement for toxins, which I have never understood because anything atmos related is a fucking mess you either need to codedive or find a guide to understand

Sure--mix very cold oxygen (from freezer) with very hot plasma (from plasma) and you can fill out all the requirements.

People act like you need to make a whole fucking maxcap in order to fulfill the toxins experiments, and it is fucking stupid. You don't even need to trit burn, you can just put in a few cans of oxy and plasma like a monkey and get le hot purple gas, and then cool a single can of O2. please grow a brain and stop acting like "hurr why should I need to know how to maxcap"

I said it but more succinct and nicer

I doubt the LRP servers are ever going to have an average round length of 90 minutes if the game's design doesn't take the playstyles there into account. The shuttle will be called after 40-50 minutes more often than not because it's easier than solving the problems that arise in that time. If people want to murderbone or destroy the station more frequently on LRP then those things should be easier to solve there. Otherwise players will end the round earlier than the length of time things like R&D are supposed to take.

Technoturnovers wrote:People act like you need to make a whole fucking maxcap in order to fulfill the toxins experiments, and it is fucking stupid. You don't even need to trit burn, you can just put in a few cans of oxy and plasma like a monkey and get le hot purple gas, and then cool a single can of O2. please grow a brain and stop acting like "hurr why should I need to know how to maxcap"

Since we can already tell it's not intuitive enough for most players to figure out themselves, we should put this post in the game. Otherwise players won't know how to do the toxins experiments until they find the information through other means. That could take some time.

quitter's talk

At the end of the day, who are we really contributing for? The average player, or ourselves? If most people can't do toxins research but I can, is that really my problem? I don't even play the game.

cacogen wrote:At the end of the day, who are we really contributing for? The average player, or ourselves? If most people can't do toxins research but I can, is that really my problem? I don't even play the game.

That's a great mentality until you realize the disconnect between how coders want players to play and what players enjoy. That's when the 'ourselves' become coders and the 'average player' becomes everyone who isn't a coder.

the toxins issue in my eyes is less difficulty (you only need a plasma bomb for everything but useless cash now) but rather the fact that toxins is just boring and repetitive.

Yeah, someone showed me during ultralowpop that apparently all you need is like level 3 lasers, O2 at 43 K and plasma at arbitrary high heat, and you can hit the research goals with by igniting a burn in a T2 canister with a heater and using a heat transfer pump or whatever it's called to heat pure plasma?