Revs win should end the round

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WineAllWine
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Revs win should end the round

Post by WineAllWine » #613810

It not ending the round is rubbish.
On a rev victory, Great! The shuttle isn't called. The ex-revs need to find someone to call it... this takes a minute or two. it's called. Now we need to get a red alert, another two minutes. now we wait for shuttle, 4 mins, 3 mins wait, 2 mins transit...

13 minutes waiting for a round end during which nothing interesting happens. I'm sure everyone in this position would rather we either:
a) instant end round or
b) instant shuttle arrival
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by WineAllWine » #613811

Random Terry strawpoll, which I accept doesnt mean very much.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by iain0 » #613813

Can we put some balance checks in too, 2 heads + warden vs revolution at high pop is kinda dumb.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Stickymayhem » #613814

I've actually had some really interesting fun post rev win I just think we need a really firm policy.

Maybe revs should remain marked, but be semi-antags with instructions to suppress any security forces or something. That was a really fun way to roleplay a win.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Agux909 » #613815

WineAllWine wrote:It not ending the round is rubbish.
On a rev victory, Great! The shuttle isn't called. The ex-revs need to find someone to call it... this takes a minute or two. it's called. Now we need to get a red alert, another two minutes. now we wait for shuttle, 4 mins, 3 mins wait, 2 mins transit...

13 minutes waiting for a round end during which nothing interesting happens. I'm sure everyone in this position would rather we either:
a) instant end round or
b) instant shuttle arrival
I think you decided to choose a bad argument for an actual reasonable change.

Revs not ending the round isn't bad because of "time spent doing nothing interesting". We're on 2021 Dynamic, the round can still be engaging by a myriad of other things. Some people even like to go back to what they were doing after revs win, and are against shuttle being called. So, that isn't the main problem.

The problem currently is players not understanding what it means for the revolution to have succeeded. There's a lot of grey areas when those icons dissapear from your head.

People who never were revs helping the rest of security to hunt down known revs. People who were revs not seeking to kill mindshielded players and just wanting to chill, then getting into fights with fellow revs, killing each other, etc.
You have these and more situations which can lead to a lot of upset players, making it a hellish atmosphere for both them and the admins handling the ahelps. It's just nuts.

So yeah, for these reasons in particular, for the sanity of players and admins alike, it would be nice to revert to old revs. However, then you have another problem. What about other antags that were rolled because this is dynamic? Is it fair to them for the round to end at 5-10 minutes because the heads were incompetent?

I think there's more to discuss here for a possible solution other than "Revs win should end the round".

Maybe make it so when there's revs there can be no other antags at all? IDK.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Ryusenshu » #613823

Revs not ending the round isn't bad because of "time spent doing nothing interesting". We're on 2021 Dynamic, the round can still be engaging by a myriad of other things. Some people even like to go back to what they were doing after revs win, and are against shuttle being called. So, that isn't the main problem.
I have never seen that happen on Terry, people just want to move on. Most of the time people will not be revived and its just a waiting game for dead sec, command and mindshielded crew
The problem currently is players not understanding what it means for the revolution to have succeeded. There's a lot of grey areas when those icons dissapear from your head.

People who never were revs helping the rest of security to hunt down known revs. People who were revs not seeking to kill mindshielded players and just wanting to chill, then getting into fights with fellow revs, killing each other, etc.
You have these and more situations which can lead to a lot of upset players, making it a hellish atmosphere for both them and the admins handling the ahelps. It's just nuts.
I fully agree with everything here, i have no idea what to do post rev. Questions like "Can i actually fight Revs afterwards?" is something that always comes to mind.
Problem is, you cant identify them. Post-Rev wouldnt be such a problem if we had atleast something to work with, like maybe crew can see who was rev after it ended?
So yeah, for these reasons in particular, for the sanity of players and admins alike, it would be nice to revert to old revs. However, then you have another problem. What about other antags that were rolled because this is dynamic? Is it fair to them for the round to end at 5-10 minutes because the heads were incompetent?
Solo Antags get shat on in alot of other modes, thats nothing new . Cult is the worst example of it. Had a gimmick planned? its gone now, since you HAVE to help cult win.
Revs have the same problem, post rev aint doing much difference. If you get rev'd to kill heads for 30 minutes, there aint much left to work with after its over
I think there's more to discuss here for a possible solution other than "Revs win should end the round".

Maybe make it so when there's revs there can be no other antags at all? IDK.
People would hate it, they love their antag.
Also if crew wins, shuttle is called too.

edit:
Now that i think about it, it shouldnt be fully removed. i think the mrp servers can still benefit from post revs, lrp is a different thing though
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #613824

Problem is, you cant identify them. Post-Rev wouldnt be such a problem if we had atleast something to work with, like maybe crew can see who was rev after it ended?
This is completely intentional as it's trying to communicate the policy of the team of revolution not existing anymore. Revolutionaries cannot randomly kill crew, crew cannot randomly kill revolutionaries, just like standard escalation. Thus, there is no reason to distinguish them anymore to anyone else.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by nianjiilical » #613825

what if revs winning set every command door on the station to all access and perma-unlocked all the command computers
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #613829

lmao straight up not a bad idea
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by wesoda25 » #613839

Yeah I think it could benefit from some station-trait-esque events occurring upon a successful revolution. Cargo prices being jacked up (or just frozen entirely), security sign ups being sent without mindshields, emergency shuttle docking elsewhere, etc.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #613844

Re-enabling station wages, and access to unlimited free medical-kiosk healthcare /& deptvendors

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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #613849

Floyd had a cool idea for, I think it was called station reputation? Station loyalty?

It was essentially a number that could be in any round that adjusted certain parts of the game depending on your loyalty to the station. That way we could have all these neat little things like cargo shuttle fuckery without locking it to revs.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by cacogen » #613919

Is it a number per character or a number per station as a measure of their loyalty to Nanotrasen?
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #613937

It was a station number.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Agux909 » #613953

Uh, what does "station loyalty" mean exactly? How do you earn it?
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #613969

The most recent post-revs shift I remember was just stickymayhem turbomurdering the CMO and acting-cap while the detective ran around shooting people with his .38, then it was just immediate "Okay now quick call the shuttle so we can end the shift" and all interesting stuff happened due to people not having the faintest clue how post-revs works and trying to kill the revs / people they thought might be a head of staff in disguise while the headrevs declared anyone who annoyed them an enemy of the revolution.

So yeah far from the problem being people not knowing the rules for post rev, from my experience it's the only reason *anything* happens post rev


Id have thought sticky would remember how he won and it was just sitting in the wardens chairs solo-rping a 3rd world dictator for a few minutes then everyone going back to centcom
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #613975

Agux909 wrote:Uh, what does "station loyalty" mean exactly? How do you earn it?
I don't remember other than he wanted it to drain after rev victories.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by sinfulbliss » #614596

Last time I commented on revs my post was too long so no coders read it but here's the problem with post-revs:

1) Anti-climactic. Whether you win or lose, there is no "greentext" at roundend. Revs are the only antag that doesn't have this.

2) Puts sec and previously mindshielded deputees in a weird limbo after heads die. It's so confusing that a policy thread had to be made about it, which I guarantee 95% of players haven't read. Who do you fight? Do you wait until someone's murdering you to confirm they're revs? Do you just hide in brig until the shuttle comes? Rev/loyalist status should become visible after rev victory, so loyalists and sec still have a battle to fight.

3) Creates nonsensical situations like: heads being revived after the revs win, killing all the previous headrevs, yet still "officially" losing. Why would the revs win if all the headrevs have died and the heads are left? The bandaid solution of heads being DNR after losing doesn't make much sense - why would being a head make your body unable to be revived? But I'm pretty sure that's bugged as it is anyway since I was brought back as a headrev after dying a month or so ago.

4) The round can go on near endlessly afterwards with most of the station destroyed and many players eliminated, with no gameplay left except the "REV STATION 13" renaming memery. Shuttle should come within 10 min of revs winning, so they have some time to enjoy it but don't delay the round for 30 minutes. Most players I've talked to this is their #1 problem with the current way revs are.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #614598

sinfulbliss wrote: 1) Anti-climactic. Whether you win or lose, there is no "greentext" at roundend. Revs are the only antag that doesn't have this.
This is a bug, just not one I've been able to approach yet.
sinfulbliss wrote: 2) Puts sec and previously mindshielded deputees in a weird limbo after heads die. It's so confusing that a policy thread had to be made about it, which I guarantee 95% of players haven't read. Who do you fight? Do you wait until someone's murdering you to confirm they're revs? Do you just hide in brig until the shuttle comes? Rev/loyalist status should become visible after rev victory, so loyalists and sec still have a battle to fight.
This is the part of post-revs I am intimately familiar with, and the biggest problem in my eyes. Me and NamelessFairy wanted to begin approaching this by giving everyone a distinct policy message as to who they can attack now.

To briefly answer your questions: security should not go killing randomly, but can harder escalate suspicious behavior, or kill people they knew previously to be heads. Mindshielded people are the same as normal crew, in that they should not be attacking either side unless escalated on (it makes sense for them to attack a revolutionary if they see them attacking a security officer for instance, but they should not be surprised when they are attacked back).
sinfulbliss wrote: 3) Creates nonsensical situations like: heads being revived after the revs win, killing all the previous headrevs, yet still "officially" losing. Why would the revs win if all the headrevs have died and the heads are left? The bandaid solution of heads being DNR after losing doesn't make much sense - why would being a head make your body unable to be revived? But I'm pretty sure that's bugged as it is anyway since I was brought back as a headrev after dying a month or so ago.
This is an oversight.

In the old days of Dynamic revs, head revs would become unclonable. This is what the message saying they're blacklisted on medical records means.

We don't have cloning anymore. This code was never updated. I didn't do it in the same PR because it was an unrelated change.
sinfulbliss wrote: 4) The round can go on near endlessly afterwards with most of the station destroyed and many players eliminated, with no gameplay left except the "REV STATION 13" renaming memery. Shuttle should come within 10 min of revs winning, so they have some time to enjoy it but don't delay the round for 30 minutes. Most players I've talked to this is their #1 problem with the current way revs are.
Automatic shuttle calls are explicitly blacklisted in general tgstation design--part of the entire point of the change is players should decide when the round ends, not the game. Threat is refilled into the round during a revolutions victory, and there are usually other antagonists available (whose antags rounds prior to post-revs would've essentially been deleted).
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by sinfulbliss » #614600

Mothblocks wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote: 1) Anti-climactic. Whether you win or lose, there is no "greentext" at roundend. Revs are the only antag that doesn't have this.
This is a bug, just not one I've been able to approach yet.
I would recommend just a big greentext "The revolution has overthrown the command staff!" or "The command staff has quelled the revolution!" like nukies has. Just some message to indicate which side won.
Mothblocks wrote: Mindshielded people are the same as normal crew, in that they should not be attacking either side unless escalated on (it makes sense for them to attack a revolutionary if they see them attacking a security officer for instance, but they should not be surprised when they are attacked back).
If mindshielded people are the same as normal crew, then by that logic sec could capture and mindshield post-rev revs to make them normal crew again. But this isn't how it's treated currently - mindshielding is useless after a rev victory. But why wouldn't mindshielding a post-rev rev make them loyal? It's a loyalty implant, after all, so theoretically it should work even after the revs have won.

It would make post-rev a lot more enjoyable for both sides, I think, if the battle continued even after the heads have died, between sec/mindshielded crew and post-revs. The complaint that it's "boring" or the round should end, would be addressed as well.
Mothblocks wrote: Automatic shuttle calls are explicitly blacklisted in general tgstation design--part of the entire point of the change is players should decide when the round ends, not the game. Threat is refilled into the round during a revolutions victory, and there are usually other antagonists available (whose antags rounds prior to post-revs would've essentially been deleted).
In my experience even the post-revs get bored enough of post-rev gameplay to call the shuttle. That is: antags that get injected into the round afterwards have no resistance, as revs either don't care about or actively join sides with other antags. Especially since there is no sec at this point (or if there is, they will be killed soon), it makes for almost no conflict. I do think allowing mindshields to deconvert post-rev revs could mitigate this issue though.

One time for fun as headrev I got cap gear and mindshielded myself after we won, to prank some of the other revs. But it's just bizarre mindshields should be disregarded after revs win.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Mothblocks » #614604

If mindshielded people are the same as normal crew
You misunderstand. They are the same as normal crew because, when the revolution ended, they were not a revolutionary. Just like normal crew.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by sinfulbliss » #614609

Mothblocks wrote:
If mindshielded people are the same as normal crew
You misunderstand. They are the same as normal crew because, when the revolution ended, they were not a revolutionary. Just like normal crew.
Why would a mindshield deconvert a rev prior to the revolution ending, but not deconvert them after the revolution ends?

Revs have this weird status where they are no longer "revs" after they win, they have no identifying markers and can't be mindshielded anymore, yet they still have the antag status of rev.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Cobby » #614621

They can’t be antag because we’ve given a lot of connotations to anything labeled antag, it’s an admin issue they (we if I put my admin hat on although I’ve said this repeatedly ) dont dare touch rule 4 to clarify that there are more nuances than antag and not.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #618047

Following conversations in admin bus, I still feel that revs should end the round. This is less confusing. It causes less administrative issues. It also never seems to play out in practice how it does in theory, very rarely ever does it actually lead to round continuation in a meaningful way (my opinion), and people seem just annoyed that it doesn't, it just feels like a delay to get to the next round which people seemingly want to happen more than going on, I am not sure that it matters that antags will lose out on antagging that much, sometimes shit just happens in that regard imho it's not important that you can't run around maint shooting everyone or be dastardly at the expense of others being stuck in the already (what feels like over) round and I think some others agree with me hopefully they post their opinions too
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Timberpoes » #618057

Agreed that there are still issues regarding policy. It's basically too complex.

We have the following issues to consider:
Sec vs ex-revs - Intuitive; clearly opposing factions. However, it's difficult for sec to tell who are ex-revs and who are normal crew. All previous tells are lost. Mindshielding does nothing anymore to deconvert from ex-rev. In practice, it plays out unintuitively.
Sec vs non-revs - Intuitive; ordinary escalation. See above: Difficult for sec to know who is an ex-rev and who is not. Ends up messy.

Ex-revs vs ex-revs - Unintuitive; same faction but the rules have now changed from team-antag protections. Antag ex-revs can attack ex-revs. Normal escalation or "still on the same side, don't escalate"? Incredibly messy. Can generate ahelps in confusion when former teammates attack each other for whatever reasons.
Ex-revs vs non-revs - Kinda intuitive; hostile faction vs neutral faction. Players can't necessarily tell who is who. Same issues as above with that.

Policy is intuitive as a sec officer. It's you against the ex-revs with non-revs as a neutral party. However, there's no way to tell who is who so even if that's the policy, in practice things don't naturally play out that way. Sec's objective is just to survive. Mindshields also stop working. Because of this, although the policy is intuitive the gameplay loop associated with ex-revs sec is messy because they have no way to tell neutral from hostile or friend from foe; even people who are mindshielded could be ex-revs because mindshields do nothing. While we expect players to act with incomplete information, I feel sec are the most likely to violate policy post-revs.

Policy is straightforward and simple as an ex-rev vs sec, however can get muddied when ex-revs get mindshield implanted because this diverges completely from the Rev game mode. Policy is non-intuitive as an ex-rev vs ex-rev. You go back to normal escalation with your former teammates and team antag restrictions totally stop (despite you all being on the same team mere moments ago). This major paradigm shift is in stark contrast to team antag protections. If you get confused about what you can do against ex-revs, no longer being able to tell who an ex-rev and who a non-rev is will only exacerbate previous confusions. I feel ex-revs are the most likely to misunderstand policy post-revs and ahelp things that aren't actually against policy.

Policy is a bit mixed for a non-rev. Sec are usually clearly identifiable and you should know not to attack them. However, sec don't know not to attack you. You can't tell who normal players and who ex-revs are, so helping out in fights can get messy quickly.

Overall, there is a lot that can go wrong. Having 3 factions significantly complicates things. Changing the rules (mindshields do nothing to ex-revs, team antag restrictions no longer apply to fellow ex-revs) is unituitive. Even where the policy is intuitive, actually COMPLYING with the policy may not be. If the policy can't be complied with easily, it serves no purpose at all.

I'm not sure how to fix this. Three opposing factions with limited ways to tell who is part of 2 of those factions will always cause problems. There's no point having a policy that's difficult or impossible to reasonably follow.

If we MUST have post-win revs contuining, then I feel things have to be simplified. 2 factions (Sec vs the world). Make the stance on escalation much more obvious (former revs no longer aligned, the revolution is disbanded, welecome to the syndicate, purge all NT scum). And make the policy easier to follow.

It doesn't matter how much time you spend teaching old players the policy. There's always a new player to come in and fuck it up in their place. Things should be clear and make sense the first time, without fail.
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Re: Revs win should end the round

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #618078

After revs win there ain't shit to do you sit there and all of the heads are dead the revs took the gear and now the department is empty cause everyone has cool shit and is just roaming halls.

TL;DR You have nice stuff after winning and are just waiting for shuttle
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