/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:13 am**

I play alot of security, and i almost never use the shotgun. all of the ammo types are near useless; beanbags/rubbershot are terrible, makeshift ammo is basically worthless; It only does decent damage if you are literally standing directly infront of your target, and at that point, you may as well just baton them; lazer/energyguns are more consistently effective in almost any situation, the only reason you would use a shotgun is if your opponent has a desword, and even then i think i would rather just take my chances trying to baton them.

Shotguns need a buff of some sort to make them actually useful. My idea: make buckshot an orderable ammunition from cargo. This encourages interplay within departments and gives shotguns an actual use. If you have any other interesting ideas on how to make shotguns worthwhile i would like to hear them in this thread. thank you for coming to my ted talk

edit: nah they're actually pretty good

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am**

they were nerfed on purpose.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:53 am**

If any buffs should happen, it shouldn't be about ammo printing but rather giving it a unique use case. If what you say about batons is true its current use case is getting way too close to simplemobs to deal damage when you could be lasering them.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm**

Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.

but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:03 pm**

they only have like 1 use and thats shotgun darts. which is stupid. a shotgun should not be a glorified syringe gun. it should be a shotgun. dumb.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:59 pm**

While I think the days of validhunters toting sawn-off riot shotguns full of slugs and two-tapping every antagonist they come across were not a great thing, I do think that shotguns have swiftly fallen to the opposite side of the spectrum, where you come across the absurd situation wherein while in a confrontation with a heavily-armored operative wielding an assault rifle, you'd rather be equipped with an antique .38 revolver than a pump-action shotgun. I think that making buckshot (and only buckshot) order able from cargo would be a good compromise for a few reasons:
- Now, there's actually a choice to be made if you want a ballistic firearm: cheaper autorifles or save up for the combat shotguns? Because right now, I can't even remember the last time I saw combat shotguns ordered because they're basically bulky and loud disablers that you can't stick in your suit storage.
- The problem with shotguns was never the shotguns themselves, really - it was slugs, because slugs are ungodly monsters that put you into soft-crit in two shots, and hard-crit in three, while buckshot is slightly less reliable and actually forces shotguns into the close-range niche they're supposed to occupy.
- Even right now, there's only one niche where ballistics are even better than lasers in any capacity, and that's against operatives. Even here, it's because operatives are functionally immune to lasers most of the time, so even worthless rubbershot has a marginally-better chance of actually doing something. If we make shotguns actually lethal-capable in any fashion (outside of makeshift buckshot that usually takes five(!!!) shots to put an unarmored target into critical), it'll reduce the utter dominance of energy weapons that we currently suffer from.

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:24 am**

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.
but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?

if only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:13 am**

if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:18 am**

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:13 am if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case

real shit this would be cool & give them a "super crowd control" niche

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:24 am
thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.
but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
if only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.

i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:24 pm**

we should not have a bunch of weapons in the armory that serve no actual purpose and dont do anything useful. if you dont want to buff them then they should be removed entirely

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 pm**

that's cool bro, but im not going to do that

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:26 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 pm that's cool bro, but im not going to do that

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:44 pm**

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:13 am if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case

this is a neat idea, i like this

Posted: **Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:11 am**

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing

i remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)
nerf was for the better

Posted: **Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:05 pm**

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:26 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 pm that's cool bro, but im not going to do that

i downloaded this onto my computer

Posted: **Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:21 pm**

could we get a shotgun shell that shoots bolas?

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:26 am**

saprasam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:11 am
thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing
i remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)
nerf was for the better

yeah having them in the armory shiftstart might have been overkill, but still, why cant they be orderable from cargo? autorifles are just as powerful, probably more because of the range advantage, and you can buy those.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:59 am**

Strongly agree. I played when shotguns had slugs and buckshot, then when they only had buckshot, and now when buckshot too was finally removed.

Shotguns are essentially worthless at this point and are fully replaced by autorifles, which do:
1) 20 brute per hit
2) Carry 20 shots per magazine.
3) Fire rapidly and can be reloaded easily with magazines in your box.

Shotguns, even with buckshot, would be worse than autorifles because:
1) Shots spread, making them do <20brute at any distance over a few tiles.
2) Carry 7 shots.
3) Fire much slower, and ammo is very bulky (it takes a whole box to store 7 shells, whereas you can fit 20x7=140 autorifle bullets in the same space).

If buckshot were brought back, shotguns would still be objectively worse than autorifles, but they'd at least be an option and have a use. As they stand they're utterly worthless. Even the shotgun darts, which require research to get, are next to worthless since they aren't piercing. Right now shotguns are useless for sec as a lethal option, and outclassed by your shiftstart disabler as a nonlethal option.

Posted: **Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:17 pm**

replace shotguns with blunderbusses if i'm going to be useless at least let me pretend to be a pirate

Posted: **Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:22 am**

why don't we remove shotguns then?

Posted: **Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:54 am**

Shotguns are really op if you spend 30 minutes setting up a chem factory. You can make chem darts that 1 shot and explode people.

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:44 pm**

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:54 am Shotguns are really op if you spend 30 minutes setting up a chem factory. You can make chem darts that 1 shot and explode people.

"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"

I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:18 pm**

Valorium wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:44 pm"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"

I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.

A lot of "powerful" strategies are like this. Some people don't realize even if the key part of the process is relatively straightforward (in this case, chemistry), a lot of things out of your control have to go your way if said part of the process is to be the rate-limiting step.

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:03 pm**

if you set up a chem factory for a really strong combo theres nothing wrong with that!

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:02 am**

What about them applying a knockback that ramps up on intensity with the amount of pellets you get hit by?

Making them a different type of CC weapon would be more interesting than fully or partially reverting the nerfs that were made. It would also make them cover a niche other weapons don't.

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am**

Agux909 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:02 am What about them applying a knockback that ramps up on intensity with the amount of pellets you get hit by?

could be interesting, especially if that knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am**

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).

like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:06 am**

Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)

kinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:51 am**

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:06 am
Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)
kinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.

dude playing cook is great cause I love cooking, and the strategies involving the kitchen, skill ceiling for the cook is high not only is it the environment its the CQC and cooking.

That being said environmental bonus damage would be great for shotgun and would encourage using it in tight spaces and environments like the kitchen or small sections like robotics or science(ALSO THE BAR!)

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:24 am**

ardentarclight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields

This made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymore

Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:42 am**

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:24 am
ardentarclight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
This made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymore

Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles

Just to clarify this last point, do you mean specifically balancing the converted shotguns or balance lasers against the things that once hard countered energy projectiles? (or both even)

And by 'energy', do you mean disablers, making them distinct from lasers?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:54 pm**

Ballistics counter anti energy devices like eswords by the nature of being a ballistic in an energy dominated society

Energy being disablers and lasers

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:00 pm**

Personally, I find that right now there are straight up too many problems that be solved by energy weapons. Like, almost every antagonist can be completely obliterated by lasers, disablers, or a mix of the two with very few exceptions. If we buff shotguns and increase the number of antagonists with tools to combat energy weapons, then we get more gameplay variety and make it so we don't have a severe case of Hammer-Nail Syndrome.

The only major antagonists immune to energy weapons are operatives (usually), rarely traitors, and certain types of blob. Considering we have over a dozen antagonist types by my rough estimate, that's...not a lot.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:52 pm**

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:54 pm Ballistics counter anti energy devices like eswords by the nature of being a ballistic in an energy dominated society

Energy being disablers and lasers

Okay, so this is actually addressing the converted weapon specifically. An energy weapon not subject to the same counters as other energy weapons. Mkay.

/tg/Station 13

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