Shotgun buff

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.
Post Reply
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618374

I play alot of security, and i almost never use the shotgun. all of the ammo types are near useless; beanbags/rubbershot are terrible, makeshift ammo is basically worthless; It only does decent damage if you are literally standing directly infront of your target, and at that point, you may as well just baton them; lazer/energyguns are more consistently effective in almost any situation, the only reason you would use a shotgun is if your opponent has a desword, and even then i think i would rather just take my chances trying to baton them.

Shotguns need a buff of some sort to make them actually useful. My idea: make buckshot an orderable ammunition from cargo. This encourages interplay within departments and gives shotguns an actual use. If you have any other interesting ideas on how to make shotguns worthwhile i would like to hear them in this thread. thank you for coming to my ted talk

edit: nah they're actually pretty good
Last edited by toemas on Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by oranges » #618379

they were nerfed on purpose.
User avatar
Armhulen
Global Moderator
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: bazelart
Location: The Grand Tournament

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Armhulen » #618380

If any buffs should happen, it shouldn't be about ammo printing but rather giving it a unique use case. If what you say about batons is true its current use case is getting way too close to simplemobs to deal damage when you could be lasering them.
User avatar
bastardblaster
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:57 am
Byond Username: BastardBlaster
Location: Ionia, Runeterra

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by bastardblaster » #618395

Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
Image

Image

Image

Image
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618424

oranges wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.
but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618425

they only have like 1 use and thats shotgun darts. which is stupid. a shotgun should not be a glorified syringe gun. it should be a shotgun. dumb.
Valorium
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Byond Username: Valorium
Location: Somewhere, I dunno.

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Valorium » #618431

While I think the days of validhunters toting sawn-off riot shotguns full of slugs and two-tapping every antagonist they come across were not a great thing, I do think that shotguns have swiftly fallen to the opposite side of the spectrum, where you come across the absurd situation wherein while in a confrontation with a heavily-armored operative wielding an assault rifle, you'd rather be equipped with an antique .38 revolver than a pump-action shotgun. I think that making buckshot (and only buckshot) order able from cargo would be a good compromise for a few reasons:
- Now, there's actually a choice to be made if you want a ballistic firearm: cheaper autorifles or save up for the combat shotguns? Because right now, I can't even remember the last time I saw combat shotguns ordered because they're basically bulky and loud disablers that you can't stick in your suit storage.
- The problem with shotguns was never the shotguns themselves, really - it was slugs, because slugs are ungodly monsters that put you into soft-crit in two shots, and hard-crit in three, while buckshot is slightly less reliable and actually forces shotguns into the close-range niche they're supposed to occupy.
- Even right now, there's only one niche where ballistics are even better than lasers in any capacity, and that's against operatives. Even here, it's because operatives are functionally immune to lasers most of the time, so even worthless rubbershot has a marginally-better chance of actually doing something. If we make shotguns actually lethal-capable in any fashion (outside of makeshift buckshot that usually takes five(!!!) shots to put an unarmored target into critical), it'll reduce the utter dominance of energy weapons that we currently suffer from.
Native Manuellian and Shiptest admin. Ignore me.

Also the author of several drone adventures.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by oranges » #618438

thomanthewise5404 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pm
oranges wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.
but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
if only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.
User avatar
Armhulen
Global Moderator
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: bazelart
Location: The Grand Tournament

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Armhulen » #618451

if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case
User avatar
saprasam
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Saprasam

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by saprasam » #618458

Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:13 am if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case
real shit this would be cool & give them a "super crowd control" niche
Image
(FORMER) tgmc admin (I HAVE REGAINED MY HUMAN RIGHTS)
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618538

oranges wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:24 am
thomanthewise5404 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pm
oranges wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:18 am they were nerfed on purpose.
but why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
if only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.

i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618541

we should not have a bunch of weapons in the armory that serve no actual purpose and dont do anything useful. if you dont want to buff them then they should be removed entirely
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by oranges » #618551

that's cool bro, but im not going to do that
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618556

oranges wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 pm that's cool bro, but im not going to do that
Attachments
carrot.mp4
(1.69 MiB) Downloaded 94 times
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #618557

Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:13 am if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case
this is a neat idea, i like this
User avatar
saprasam
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Saprasam

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by saprasam » #618562

thomanthewise5404 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing
i remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)
nerf was for the better
Image
(FORMER) tgmc admin (I HAVE REGAINED MY HUMAN RIGHTS)
cacogen
Forum Soft Banned
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by cacogen » #618663

thomanthewise5404 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:26 pm
oranges wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 pm that's cool bro, but im not going to do that
i downloaded this onto my computer
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
Image

Image
User avatar
cocothegogo
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:11 pm
Byond Username: Cocothegog0
Location: Brazil

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by cocothegogo » #618767

could we get a shotgun shell that shoots bolas?
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by toemas » #619048

saprasam wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:11 am
thomanthewise5404 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"

amazing
i remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)
nerf was for the better

yeah having them in the armory shiftstart might have been overkill, but still, why cant they be orderable from cargo? autorifles are just as powerful, probably more because of the range advantage, and you can buy those.
User avatar
sinfulbliss
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
Byond Username: SinfulBliss
Location: prisoner re-education chamber

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by sinfulbliss » #619071

Strongly agree. I played when shotguns had slugs and buckshot, then when they only had buckshot, and now when buckshot too was finally removed.

Shotguns are essentially worthless at this point and are fully replaced by autorifles, which do:
1) 20 brute per hit
2) Carry 20 shots per magazine.
3) Fire rapidly and can be reloaded easily with magazines in your box.

Shotguns, even with buckshot, would be worse than autorifles because:
1) Shots spread, making them do <20brute at any distance over a few tiles.
2) Carry 7 shots.
3) Fire much slower, and ammo is very bulky (it takes a whole box to store 7 shells, whereas you can fit 20x7=140 autorifle bullets in the same space).

If buckshot were brought back, shotguns would still be objectively worse than autorifles, but they'd at least be an option and have a use. As they stand they're utterly worthless. Even the shotgun darts, which require research to get, are next to worthless since they aren't piercing. Right now shotguns are useless for sec as a lethal option, and outclassed by your shiftstart disabler as a nonlethal option.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Super Aggro Crag
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
Byond Username: Super Aggro Crag

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #619192

replace shotguns with blunderbusses if i'm going to be useless at least let me pretend to be a pirate
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
JusticeGoat
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 8:36 am
Byond Username: JusticeGoat

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by JusticeGoat » #619211

why don't we remove shotguns then?
User avatar
kieth4
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by kieth4 » #619241

Shotguns are really op if you spend 30 minutes setting up a chem factory. You can make chem darts that 1 shot and explode people.
Image
Valorium
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Byond Username: Valorium
Location: Somewhere, I dunno.

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Valorium » #619377

kieth4 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:54 am Shotguns are really op if you spend 30 minutes setting up a chem factory. You can make chem darts that 1 shot and explode people.
"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"

I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.
Native Manuellian and Shiptest admin. Ignore me.

Also the author of several drone adventures.
User avatar
Farquaar
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
Byond Username: Farquaar
Location: Delta Quadrant

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Farquaar » #619379

Valorium wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:44 pm"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"

I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.
A lot of "powerful" strategies are like this. Some people don't realize even if the key part of the process is relatively straightforward (in this case, chemistry), a lot of things out of your control have to go your way if said part of the process is to be the rate-limiting step.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Armhulen
Global Moderator
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: bazelart
Location: The Grand Tournament

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Armhulen » #619382

if you set up a chem factory for a really strong combo theres nothing wrong with that!
User avatar
Agux909
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
Byond Username: Agux909
Location: My own head

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Agux909 » #619397

What about them applying a knockback that ramps up on intensity with the amount of pellets you get hit by?

Making them a different type of CC weapon would be more interesting than fully or partially reverting the nerfs that were made. It would also make them cover a niche other weapons don't.
Image

Image

Image
Image
Image
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by datorangebottle » #619428

Agux909 wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:02 am What about them applying a knockback that ramps up on intensity with the amount of pellets you get hit by?
could be interesting, especially if that knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Jonathan Gupta
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:16 pm
Byond Username: BallastMonsterGnarGnar
Location: The Corner

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #619430

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)
Living God

Extraordinary Person

Image
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by datorangebottle » #619436

Jonathan Gupta wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am
datorangebottle wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)
kinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Jonathan Gupta
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:16 pm
Byond Username: BallastMonsterGnarGnar
Location: The Corner

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #619443

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:06 am
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am
datorangebottle wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)
kinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.
dude playing cook is great cause I love cooking, and the strategies involving the kitchen, skill ceiling for the cook is high not only is it the environment its the CQC and cooking.

That being said environmental bonus damage would be great for shotgun and would encourage using it in tight spaces and environments like the kitchen or small sections like robotics or science(ALSO THE BAR!)
Living God

Extraordinary Person

Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Cobby » #619757

ardentarclight wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
This made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymore

Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
NecromancerAnne
In-Game Admin
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by NecromancerAnne » #619758

Cobby wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:24 am
ardentarclight wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
This made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymore

Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles
Just to clarify this last point, do you mean specifically balancing the converted shotguns or balance lasers against the things that once hard countered energy projectiles? (or both even)

And by 'energy', do you mean disablers, making them distinct from lasers?
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Cobby » #619803

Ballistics counter anti energy devices like eswords by the nature of being a ballistic in an energy dominated society

Energy being disablers and lasers
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Valorium
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Byond Username: Valorium
Location: Somewhere, I dunno.

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by Valorium » #619812

Personally, I find that right now there are straight up too many problems that be solved by energy weapons. Like, almost every antagonist can be completely obliterated by lasers, disablers, or a mix of the two with very few exceptions. If we buff shotguns and increase the number of antagonists with tools to combat energy weapons, then we get more gameplay variety and make it so we don't have a severe case of Hammer-Nail Syndrome.

The only major antagonists immune to energy weapons are operatives (usually), rarely traitors, and certain types of blob. Considering we have over a dozen antagonist types by my rough estimate, that's...not a lot.
Native Manuellian and Shiptest admin. Ignore me.

Also the author of several drone adventures.
User avatar
NecromancerAnne
In-Game Admin
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...

Re: Shotgun buff

Post by NecromancerAnne » #619830

Cobby wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:54 pm Ballistics counter anti energy devices like eswords by the nature of being a ballistic in an energy dominated society

Energy being disablers and lasers
Okay, so this is actually addressing the converted weapon specifically. An energy weapon not subject to the same counters as other energy weapons. Mkay.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]