Security no longer spawning with batons

[sinfulbliss]

Latejoin security officers are now at a serious disadvantage compared to a shiftstart security officer. It is somewhat common for all the batons that spawn in brig to be gone after 10-20 minutes, especially on highpop, and you are extremely vulnerable until you can find a way to secure a replacement. In many rounds this isn't possible due to the state of the station.

The goal as stated in the PR was to prevent security officers from powergaming two batons in their belt, and encouraging interaction with cargo. The result is that now many officers have no baton, instead of two. Skyrat has modified this change to instead remove batons from the secbelts that come in lockers, but allow officers to spawn with one. This in my experience has been much more effective at forcing officers to only use one baton, since there's no second baton to loot, and also prevents latejoin officers from getting screwed without a baton the whole shift.

As a sidenote, the evidence bags that now spawn in officers' bags aren't ever used (on LRP at least, I can't speak for MRP), and contribute to significant plastic waste around the station.

[BeeSting12]

Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more? This basically turns latejoin security officers into a loot pinata. Disablers run out too quickly and flashes can be ineffective. The stunbaton is the only reliable defense method they have until they can get their full kit from the brig. If powergaming two batons in the belt is actually a problem, then my suggested fix would be as sinfulbliss said, removing the stunbaton from the secbelt and allowing sec officers to spawn one. A few could be kept in the armory to allow for transfers into security/lost batons. This also allows for that additional cargo interaction in case officers want to powergame with the two batons or if they lose their one baton.

[sinfulbliss]

Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more?

Yeah, this happens occasionally, although it's not usually selfish officers stealing a second. The more common situation is a shiftstart officer replacing a baton that was stolen from them during the shift, thus causing a latejoin not to have one. Or, even more commonly, the lockers being looted by non-sec, either due to break-ins or freely as a result of a high-threat nukie/cult/blob/rev round in which brig gear is distributed for crew to help fight the threat.

Meanwhile the latejoin seccie that came at the 12 minute mark is SOL, and will be essentially replaced by any crewmember that got to a seclocker before him.

[Helios]

That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals

[sinfulbliss]

That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals

Does not have a secbelt or baton.

[Jonathan Gupta]

That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals

for assistants easy access.

[Pandarsenic]

Just get lasers instead

[iain0]

Wrote most of this on the PR but since there's a thread, I agree, anyone who wants to play dual batons is just going to take a second at the expense of anyone later joining. See also engineering where it's pretty pointless late joining because engineers dont actually spawn with the gear they need for their job and it's all been tided by the 5 minute mark. Are we going to have to administratively monitor sec to see who loots multiple batons and is this going to be against the rules?

Also concerned about reduction in non lethal weapons (and lets face it, disablers just aren't all that) when we expect security to use non lethal means by policy, and currently do not accept the excuse "i didn't have a non lethal weapon".

But hey, cross both those bridges when we get to them.

Also anything involving interdepartmental co-operation tends to suck. I guess sec co-ordinating and going and standing imposingly in cargo until they get their extra batons could become the new meta (until cargo gets the hint and does it without sec showing up), but I always had hit and miss experiences with cargo. And science. And atmospherics. I.e. all inter-departmental co-operations that have been forced on medical at any point.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Coders will not stop until security is forced to detain criminals by grouping up and chain shoving them into a wall. If you harm intent a criminal and punch him you WILL be banned

[cacogen]

This is one of those situation where a change is proposed that at least some of the maintainers champion, everyone predicts what will happen ahead of time and tells them this, the change goes through anyway and the people who actually play the game have to deal with it until they're willing to admit there's a problem and let it be fixed. I think scientists still have to build their own R&D console roundstart because only the RD and weirdly the other heads of staff start with access to research.

[oranges]

letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.

You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.

[Pandarsenic]

Wait, so is coming to the station late and finding all the sec belts without their batons intended

This is worse than joining as a miner to find no PKA left because Timmy TwoPKAs wants to Gamer the megafauna, because at least if that happens, you can print plasma cutters and still get minerals

[Farquaar]

Just get lasers instead

The shotgun doesn't miss

[sinfulbliss]

letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.

It's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?

You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.

The primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.

Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?

[Cobby]

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.

[Pandarsenic]

Baton on belt and/or spare batons in the armory would be a really nice way to make them still lootable and available to people who need replacements but less prone to Three Belts McGee becoming the god of death and leaving every latejoiner high and dry

[Mothblocks]

Spare batons in the armory was what the PR was based off of originally, IIRC. Sounds like you have your easy feature right there.

[oranges]

letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.

It's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?

Because people aren't supposed to have them unless they work for the security team? That would be the roleplay aspect

You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.

The primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.

Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?

We absolutely disagree on this point, it is absolutely okay to gate parts of the game behind player competence and I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.

[cacogen]

I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.

Saying this doesn't do anything

[Armhulen]

I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.

Saying this doesn't do anything

It's preventing people from changing that fact because hes blocking it

[Pandarsenic]

Okay so sort of weird questions:

• Policy-wise, is cargo required to order what other departments tell them to?
• What does security do if cargo just says "no, get fucked, we spent it all on guns and on emitters to open our guns?" Arrest them with your 0 batons?
• What do you do in a rev round as a latejoiner sec, where even leaving the shuttle is struggle and you are (in theory) already spending a bunch of your budget on mindshields if revolution hasn't overrun cargo??

[Shadowflame909]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!

[Armhulen]

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.

this is pretty cool

[Mothblocks]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

[cacogen]

Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.

[Armhulen]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

Nah

Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml

[cacogen]

Hopefully not one where job items are taken from lockers and given to cargo for people to have to order every shift

[Pandarsenic]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

This is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.

this is pretty cool

Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?

[bastardblaster]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

This is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.

this is pretty cool

Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?

stun baton crates are sec-level unlock

[Shadowflame909]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

Nah

Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml

the endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villain

You get weird middle grounds like this

[NecromancerAnne]

Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.

[Jonathan Gupta]

Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.

when I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).

[NecromancerAnne]

Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.

when I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).

You're regressing. Embrace it.

[Jonathan Gupta]

You're regressing. Embrace it.

don't embrace primal instinct kids thats how you get PERMA BANNED

[Pandarsenic]

Remember, if you don't have stun weapons because they all got looted in advance, you can always "arrest" people by critting them

Let the tide flow through you

[cacogen]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it

Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.

Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml

the endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villain

You get weird middle grounds like this

That wasn't what that post was saying at all. He just quoted that part of the post and left the rest out to create a strawman to respond to. I didn't even quote Mothblocks in my response, he constructed it that way. He's a shitty, underhanded person and for more reasons than just this.

Mothblocks was using a truism to sidestep the debate about whether security should need to order extra stun batons or not. By saying nah I was telling him to fuck off with the usual disingenuous bullshit, not disagreeing with the thing that generally holds true.

Then when I successfully parried Armhulen's bullshit by refocusing on the issue at hand, the thread spun off in this bizarre direction that is all about trying to find ways to circumvent the issue entirely presumably because it's become socially untenable in people's minds to argue with the powers that be about it when they're self-evidently wrong and know they're wrong and simply don't care or has nothing to do with the issue at all.

[NecromancerAnne]

I think arseholes robbing every sec locker of their batons is entirely a player issue. There is like 6-8 batons in sec spread across the various lockers, and the HoS and Warden get their own secbelts, you probably have enough to go around unless someone is pinching more than one and being greedy.

Alternatively, if you REALLY feel strongly about this whole thing, you could play cargo sec and ensure there is someone there to get those batons out. But I'm not saying that as 'this is now an expected requirement' and more 'if you feel so hard done by, you have an avenue for resolving this as a workaround'.

[datorangebottle]

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.

problem: There are HoS/Warden mains who open the armory roundstart whenever possible. You might as well put them back into the backpacks if you do this.

[oranges]

Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them.

you do, that's why there's one in your job locker you absolute clown, stop being an embarassment.

the only people who have to rely on another dept are late joins who are over the job cap, anything around baton stealing/hoarding is an IC issue to be sorted out by the HoS

https://file.house/wNqs.png

[oranges]

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!

Then you will have to improvise and get some other types of weapons, which should be a fairly fun experience.

[Farquaar]

I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.

[datorangebottle]

I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.

problem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.

[Shadowflame909]

what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf

[oranges]

I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.

problem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.

that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.

officers carrying two batons, is and remains to be an IC and policy issue.

what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf

again because the change was not around them hoarding batons.

[Mothblocks]

I was responding to Shadowflame actually

[Super Aggro Crag]

They should spawn with knives so i can stab people

[datorangebottle]

They should spawn with knives so i can stab people

a swiss army knife, so that they don't have to steal entire toolbelts.

[Shadowflame909]

good news about this

That australian throwing boomerang baton will actually be useful.

[sinfulbliss]

that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.

It is incredibly rare for the sec job cap to get extended by the HoP/cap. And by rare I mean... I've seen it maybe once in the past 50 rounds at most. What isn't rare, though, is latejoin officers not having batons for the whole shift (particularly the newer officers will especially have no hope of figuring out a replacement).

I'll leave it at that though, I have no other points except that officers should never be joining a round without a fighting chance in a 1v1, and without a shiftstart baton they can get got quite easily.

[NecromancerAnne]

They do have a disabler. It isn't nothing.