/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:16 pm**

As an occasional maintenance rat, ill tell you why.
It's the TAPE. Tape is needed in 2-3 parts while creating the musket, 1 for the stock, 1 for the receiver (if you don't make one at cargo), 1 for the final construction. It was the author's original intention that rats would go to maint to find tape that spawns randomly. But it is so unbelievably rare that you can easily go rounds without any tape ever spawning. Tape is considered a "common misc" catagoy item but appears misleadingly infrequently due to the high saturation of other items of the same type. Printing tape is a tedious process that requires access to chemistry and an auto lathe. The best current option is to steal the guaranteed spawned medical tape in medical. This whole ordeal seems to go against the creator's original intentions, and I could not give you a solution.

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:01 pm**

and you need a hatchet which is fucking INSANE how the hell did they expect anyone to make these?

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:04 pm**

maybe you're not expected to make them regularly

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:34 pm**

You can get hatchets from the public garden on most maps, and you can print them from the service lathe (one of the least defended lathes on most maps, especially kilo and box). But it doesn't really have to be hatchets, I just thought it appropriate. By all means, change it to check for sharp objects like kitchen knives. It doesn't really matter, just so long as it isn't stackcrafted and needs any tool at all.

My intent was indeed for greys to find tape in maint, but I didn't add tape or dictate its availability. And it was even harder to source when I initially added the pipeguns. It is a bit weird how little tape there actually is anywhere on most station and how little you can make at once (5 stacks? Really?).

I think this is a tape issue and less a pipegun issue. Maybe some mapped in tape or buyable vendor tape would help this. Vendors like the component vendors seem perfect to put tape in, they're already a source of spare parts and the like.

There is one other thing to consider: autolathes being how you make most pipeguns is something shared from when we had improvised shotguns. It wasn't something I wanted to necessarily change, just provide a potential way to circumvent.

Greyshirts aren't the only role looking to arm up with guns. Cargo, engineering, science, service and medical in theory are all roles that can produce a pipegun easier than an assistant. It isn't necessarily intentional so much as a consequence of their prompt access to an autolathe or components to the gun.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:26 am**

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:34 pm You can get hatchets from the public garden on most maps, and you can print them from the service lathe (one of the least defended lathes on most maps, especially kilo and box). But it doesn't really have to be hatchets, I just thought it appropriate. By all means, change it to check for sharp objects like kitchen knives. It doesn't really matter, just so long as it isn't stackcrafted and needs any tool at all.

My intent was indeed for greys to find tape in maint, but I didn't add tape or dictate its availability. And it was even harder to source when I initially added the pipeguns. It is a bit weird how little tape there actually is anywhere on most station and how little you can make at once (5 stacks? Really?).

I think this is a tape issue and less a pipegun issue. Maybe some mapped in tape or buyable vendor tape would help this. Vendors like the component vendors seem perfect to put tape in, they're already a source of spare parts and the like.

There is one other thing to consider: autolathes being how you make most pipeguns is something shared from when we had improvised shotguns. It wasn't something I wanted to necessarily change, just provide a potential way to circumvent.

Greyshirts aren't the only role looking to arm up with guns. Cargo, engineering, science, service and medical in theory are all roles that can produce a pipegun easier than an assistant. It isn't necessarily intentional so much as a consequence of their prompt access to an autolathe or components to the gun.

I'm not gonna nick-pick your point but I pretty much stand where you do. Is it ok with you that pipeguns are never crafted because the effort to make them as nearly anyone outweighs the cost? Ironically a hatchet is very likely a better weapon than a pipe gun.

The virgin pipegun:
Requires going to multiple departments to either break in to take the things necessary or ask people for help making a gun.
Can only hold one shot
Bulky, takes up you back slot
Unless happen to have a bandolier, you can't carry any extra ammo unless you want to waste your pockets
Dose jack shit if your opponent is wearing any armor at all or used at range because boy oh boy did they fuck over shotguns.
At best, does 60 damage point-blank to an unarmored target after which you will be weaponless unless you decided to carry extra ammo in your pockets
If 60 damage and then no weapon is enough to take out your unarmored target, a toolbox would do just as well.
Might just explode if you plan on using it more than once and don't want to waste one of your two precious pockets on some cloth

The Chad hatchet:
Crits in 8 hits
Requires a little work to get, available at some public botonies
Fits in pockets
Reusable
Can be used at range

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:28 am**

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:04 pm maybe you're not expected to make them regularly

Not my point, these are never made AT ALL.
The code is rotten and vestigial.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:37 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:26 am I'm not gonna nick-pick your point but I pretty much stand where you do. Is it ok with you that pipeguns are never crafted because the effort to make them as nearly anyone outweighs the cost? Ironically a hatchet is very likely a better weapon than a pipe gun.

A hatchet is a good weapon and can compliment other weapons well. I'm not only aware of it, but I actually use both together. Opening volley from the pipegun to slow, and finish by tossing hatchets or stabbing with a knife or punching (the latter can knockdown at high brute values).

They're weapons of necessity and things you make if you have the means and time. Enough of the departments can make them, but the situations when you do need to make them are probably few if you can get a proper, real gun. They're second best by design. The only times I've made them personally is rev rounds, for departmental defense, or personal defense, and not for validhunting or fighting a real, actual threat like nukies. They're also just fine as a makeshift syringe gun.

You'll know if you need it and can make it quickly. It is more discreet than normal guns because people underestimate them. And personally I can attest to not struggling making them myself even in roles lacking maint access like the curator, so I think you can make them as an assistant even if you lose out on the maint roll.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:45 am**

Do note that all my statements here as the designer doesn't necessarily mean you're not very welcome to try and make some alternative recipes and means of acquiring the components. Even if it is an alternative recipe or something. Maybe you could put the gun together with maint tar. All that matters is that you have to scrounge.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:56 am**

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:37 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:26 am I'm not gonna nick-pick your point but I pretty much stand where you do. Is it ok with you that pipeguns are never crafted because the effort to make them as nearly anyone outweighs the cost? Ironically a hatchet is very likely a better weapon than a pipe gun.
A hatchet is a good weapon and can compliment other weapons well. I'm not only aware of it, but I actually use both together. Opening volley from the pipegun to slow, and finish by tossing hatchets or stabbing with a knife or punching (the latter can knockdown at high brute values).

You actually use this thing? How? under what circumstances?
Well, there goes my point. I was well under the impression they were forgotten. Keep having fun with it then, you have to because I've tried and can't.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:00 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:04 pm maybe you're not expected to make them regularly

His feedback to the coding is that tape is too rare, and to up its spawn rate, or provide alternative sources.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 pm**

yes, but he fails to address why it's a problem that they're hard to make, i'm perfectly happy wiht them being shown up once in a blue moon, that just adds to their story telling potential.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:53 pm**

I wouldn't mind tape being less rare.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:09 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 pm yes, but he fails to address why it's a problem that they're hard to make, i'm perfectly happy wiht them being shown up once in a blue moon, that just adds to their story telling potential.

Listen old man maybe you didn't hear me the first time, they don't show up at all. I have never seen them ever in an actual round that I did not make myself. the "nobody makes pipeguns" title was literal. They are not a once in a blue moon item, that's a die of fate. They are an item that for all intents and purposes does not exist yet exist in the code. If I had ever seen one, I might agree with you because that's exactly what makeshift shotguns were.

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:13 am**

I don't believe you, post some data proving it.

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:47 am**

oranges wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:13 am I don't believe you, post some data proving it.

Talking with the brilliant bee man himself, should have it to you soon

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:08 am**

lets add more tape; not because of pipeguns but cuz i want to stick notes to peoples backs anyway.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:38 am**

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:08 am lets add more tape; not because of pipeguns but cuz i want to stick notes to peoples backs anyway.

Any good ideas on making tape more accessible? Could put a shit ton in dorms or something, maybe just scatter it around every department,

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:42 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:38 am
Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:08 am lets add more tape; not because of pipeguns but cuz i want to stick notes to peoples backs anyway.
Any good ideas on making tape more accessible? Could put a shit ton in dorms or something, maybe just scatter it around every department,

cargo should have a vending machine in the lobby that you can buy package wrapper and tape from in case you want to mail something.

and stamps

add "philatelist" quirk so people can have stamp albumbs

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 am**

Literally, if the only reason tape isn't abundant is because of pipeguns, just change the recipe. I really would rather tape not be such a controversial addition to maps because of pipeguns, because tape in of itself is harmless fun. I just thought it'd make sense. Ryll might have a different opinion for all I know though.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:37 pm**

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 am Literally, if the only reason tape isn't abundant is because of pipeguns, just change the recipe. I really would rather tape not be such a controversial addition to maps because of pipeguns, because tape in of itself is harmless fun. I just thought it'd make sense. Ryll might have a different opinion for all I know though.

I don't think it would be too controversial. tape isn't really available for its other uses either unless you want to spend the time making plastic.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:34 pm**

more tape more tape more tape

taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:31 pm**

where is the data

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:33 pm**

its a gun made from garbage its not supposed to be highly effective

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:51 pm**

He just wants a reliable way to make them. Nobody knows why oranges chooses to gatekeep the things he does, but now he's just sealioning. He knows there's no available data on this and the guy probably doesn't have the coding knowledge to add stat tracking for it. He shouldn't have to in the first place. Unlike oranges, he actually plays, so his impression immediately carries more weight.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:30 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:31 pm where is the data

a (vhs) tape of data for you sir

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:38 pm**

cacogen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:51 pm He just wants a reliable way to make them. Nobody knows why oranges chooses to gatekeep the things he does, but now he's just sealioning. He knows there's no available data on this and the guy probably doesn't have the coding knowledge to add stat tracking for it. He shouldn't have to in the first place. Unlike oranges, he actually plays, so his impression immediately carries more weight.

If he can't prove it's not made often his post has no use

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:49 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:31 pm where is the data

Crafting is apparently unlogged, well it is kinda but it's not saved to the black box after the round so scrubby doesn't have access to it. I'll be making a PR soon to rectify this, after which we will have to engage in an approximate 1-month trial to collect sufficient data, this experiment intends to prove that the number of pipe guns that are crafted is so incredibly low, that it is for all intents and purposes unused.
Edit: PR is live: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/63995

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:54 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:38 pm
cacogen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:51 pm He just wants a reliable way to make them. Nobody knows why oranges chooses to gatekeep the things he does, but now he's just sealioning. He knows there's no available data on this and the guy probably doesn't have the coding knowledge to add stat tracking for it. He shouldn't have to in the first place. Unlike oranges, he actually plays, so his impression immediately carries more weight.
If he can't prove it's not made often his post has no use

Most of the feedback people provide is anecdotal. They couldn't possibly provide evidence for everything they claim. I'm sure you've made plenty of decisions regarding the code that were based off of impressions you've gotten from other people's feedback, rather than from data. Or just what you wanted to happen with the code.

Posted: **Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:48 am**

You don't need to defend me, asking for evidence is fair despite past conclusions.

/tg/Station 13

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