/tg/Station 13

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PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:39 am- some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward

This is the most fun objective though. A lot of the other objectives are boring I take kidnap objectives at every opportunity. Hell, I wish there was more of them.

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:39 am - some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward

glad someone mentioned this. hacking the bridge console is 10 TC whereas killing the HoS's pet is like 1-2 TC. kidnapping is not much more valuable than bugging a microchip. the more risky and harder objectives need to be bumped way up in their reward because currently there's absolutely 0 reason to do them

I'm a bit frustrated that there have not been more objectives developed, but I am not sure of a good path to incentivise people to do it.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:17 am

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:39 am - some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward

glad someone mentioned this. hacking the bridge console is 10 TC whereas killing the HoS's pet is like 1-2 TC. kidnapping is not much more valuable than bugging a microchip. the more risky and harder objectives need to be bumped way up in their reward because currently there's absolutely 0 reason to do them

Surely this is to disincentivise kidnapping pets while leaving it open as a flavour option

is killing iain now a perma able offence?

"Now?"

oranges wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:14 pm I'm a bit frustrated that there have not been more objectives developed, but I am not sure of a good path to incentivise people to do it.

You could start by not punishing people for it.

oranges wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:14 pm I'm a bit frustrated that there have not been more objectives developed, but I am not sure of a good path to incentivise people to do it.

I've got some more ideas I'll get around to eventually but honestly coming up with something which is interesting but also repeatable without immediately getting tiresome is pretty hard.
I guess the more there are the less the latter is a problem.

i feel like progtot railroads people into doing stuff & after they're done with the bare minimum they dont decide to do anything gimmicky for some odd reason

saprasam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 am i feel like progtot railroads people into doing stuff & after they're done with the bare minimum they dont decide to do anything gimmicky for some odd reason

Usually no point in doing gimmicks once your being hunted for killing poly

saprasam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 am i feel like progtot railroads people into doing stuff & after they're done with the bare minimum they dont decide to do anything gimmicky for some odd reason

Because the game constantly feeds them more objectives to complete, there's no real "minimum." They just continue doing them endlessly, buying gear along the way, until they either reach the final objective or (much more likely) get caught putting up syndie posters and killed by sec or something.

There's not much impetus to make your own gimmick when the game is feeding you endless new instructions to follow.

The more I see progtot on lowpop the more disappointing I find it in general.

I continue to hate that the bugs on items are visible tells that you are a traitor. The bugging a room and leave evidence is great. The having it in your bag with the objective to hold not so much.

Before was "oh they have the hand teleporter, this is a restricted item, they are PROBABLY a traitor but might just be having a laugh with it maybe it's valid maybe it isn't" instead of "haha funny bug go execute", except bagil continues to be lowpop central so actual executions or even a security member are incredibly rare.

It's a race with the other three traitors to get to the items first, or at least guess which ones they are going to be doing so you either get it for free (kill a pet, destroy the bartenders shotgun) or can complete it after they did (bug a room).

Maybe more variety should be added to objectives and that would help, but I'm not so sure. I'm going to list a bunch of items that like the bartenders shotgun/nullrod/fire axe are limited and non printable so might expand the midlevel objectives acceptably. Medical Wrench, Bloodbag, Experimentor, Biogenerator, The skillchip machine, Kill Beepsky, Destroy 5 APCs, Break 20 lights, Destroy 50 windows (get a fire axe and pull a Bindy), Shock someone with an electrified door/grille, overpressurize a room, overheat a room, set off an emp.

I take back my comment about needing more variety. That shit would make it almost impossible to be a traitor if you haven't done this a dozen times before and that's a shitty experience for newer players. "Oh I need the secret documents, those are in the vault, in a filing cabinet, unless we are kilo station in which case they are just on a table in the vault."

Bugging clown shoes STILL doesn't work because it tries to put it into the shoes storage slot.

Prog tot is not fun until around 40 minutes in and even then it's not as fun as it COULD BE if the objectives were better and if I was able to choose my final objective and please for the love of fuck stop punishing me for failing an objective it's dumb

Doesnt mesh well with lowpop because uncontested traitors will just get infinite TC. Traitors used to be the premier lowpop antag and now we really dont have one.

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:20 pm Doesnt mesh well with lowpop because uncontested traitors will just get infinite TC. Traitors used to be the premier lowpop antag and now we really dont have one.

Ling isn't too bad for lowpop, maybe to easy to murderbone

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:19 pm Because the game constantly feeds them more objectives to complete, there's no real "minimum." They just continue doing them endlessly, buying gear along the way, until they either reach the final objective or (much more likely) get caught putting up syndie posters and killed by sec or something.

There's not much impetus to make your own gimmick when the game is feeding you endless new instructions to follow.

seems legit, though i dont get why people dont do gimmicks after they're done with even just the bare minimum and take more objectives to continue fueling that gimmick

saprasam wrote: seems legit, though i dont get why people dont do gimmicks after they're done with even just the bare minimum and take more objectives to continue fueling that gimmick

Sunk cost. You've already wasted a shitton of time doing objectives, so you'll probably think there is no time to do anything else. Just have to continue doing objectives at that point to get the final objective. Which is a goal you know is much closer to completion.

saprasam wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:52 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:19 pm Because the game constantly feeds them more objectives to complete, there's no real "minimum." They just continue doing them endlessly, buying gear along the way, until they either reach the final objective or (much more likely) get caught putting up syndie posters and killed by sec or something.

There's not much impetus to make your own gimmick when the game is feeding you endless new instructions to follow.

seems legit, though i dont get why people dont do gimmicks after they're done with even just the bare minimum and take more objectives to continue fueling that gimmick

An easy way to bring gimmicks back and return to the sandbox is that custom objective idea. Which received maintainer approval!

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:11 pm An easy way to bring gimmicks back and return to the sandbox is that custom objective idea. Which received maintainer approval!

We already have this on a downstream but I didn’t think tg would have much interest, I can try adding an admin rejection button and porting it here.
We added it because some people just couldn’t ignore the psychological lure of “I could do more stuff” and they seem happier now that they can turn it off.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:05 am

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:11 pm An easy way to bring gimmicks back and return to the sandbox is that custom objective idea. Which received maintainer approval!

We already have this on a downstream but I didn’t think tg would have much interest, I can try adding an admin rejection button and porting it here.
We added it because some people just couldn’t ignore the psychological lure of “I could do more stuff” and they seem happier now that they can turn it off.

plz do so the community will be grateful

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:05 am

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:11 pm An easy way to bring gimmicks back and return to the sandbox is that custom objective idea. Which received maintainer approval!

We already have this on a downstream but I didn’t think tg would have much interest, I can try adding an admin rejection button and porting it here.
We added it because some people just couldn’t ignore the psychological lure of “I could do more stuff” and they seem happier now that they can turn it off.

Reactions seemed positive the last time it got a thread. I, unbiased and perfectly wise, think we should go for it.

got progtot, had the objective to hack a comms console and i expected this to be straight forward and simple, take the comms board & go to some secluded part of the station

Signal weak

if you're not at the bridge, it just wont let you doesn't matter if you're in a hallway in dorms, or elsewhere. fun. engaging. i'm glad that it doesn't even tell you this either, so you have to find out exactly why it's happening. i am never going to pick this objective, and will instead go on a bloodlusted rampage

i don't see why it doesn't just slow down the further away you are from the bridge, so the ai can tell the crew "hey guys so we've got somebody hacking comms console at uh......... aft maitenance" and have to perform a raid on you

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:08 am got progtot, had the objective to hack a comms console and i expected this to be straight forward and simple, take the comms board & go to some secluded part of the station

Signal weak

if you're not at the bridge, it just wont let you doesn't matter if you're in a hallway in dorms, or elsewhere. fun. engaging. i'm glad that it doesn't even tell you this either, so you have to find out exactly why it's happening. i am never going to pick this objective, and will instead go on a bloodlusted rampage

i don't see why it doesn't just slow down the further away you are from the bridge, so the ai can tell the crew "hey guys so we've got somebody hacking comms console at uh......... aft maitenance" and have to perform a raid on you

Its only in maintenance, but I agree it is incredibly arbitrary, gamey, and contrived

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:14 am

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:08 am furious wrath

Its only in maintenance, but I agree it is incredibly arbitrary, gamey, and contrived

it ISN'T only in maitenance, on metastation i did it in dorms cabin 5, no signal, near the holodeck, no signal
only when i was in the bridge did it let me do it

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:44 am

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:14 am

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:08 am furious wrath

Its only in maintenance, but I agree it is incredibly arbitrary, gamey, and contrived

it ISN'T only in maitenance, on metastation i did it in dorms cabin 5, no signal, near the holodeck, no signal
only when i was in the bridge did it let me do it

What da heck

I can't find whatever code is responsible for this, but that seems terrible either way.

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:08 am got progtot, had the objective to hack a comms console and i expected this to be straight forward and simple, take the comms board & go to some secluded part of the station

Signal weak

if you're not at the bridge, it just wont let you doesn't matter if you're in a hallway in dorms, or elsewhere. fun. engaging. i'm glad that it doesn't even tell you this either, so you have to find out exactly why it's happening. i am never going to pick this objective, and will instead go on a bloodlusted rampage

i don't see why it doesn't just slow down the further away you are from the bridge, so the ai can tell the crew "hey guys so we've got somebody hacking comms console at uh......... aft maitenance" and have to perform a raid on you

A recent change that prevented hacking comms consoles outside of the bridge. It's such a high-paying and late-tier objective, coders didn't want people just doing it stealthily somewhere in maint or some isolated room. High risk high reward. It's not that hard to hack into bridge to be fair IMO. One of the better objectives (10 TC for sitting still by a comms console for 10 seconds)

Annoying it doesn't let you know this though. At least on the objective itself - "signal weak" sounds kinda cool.

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:44 am it ISN'T only in maitenance, on metastation i did it in dorms cabin 5, no signal, near the holodeck, no signal
only when i was in the bridge did it let me do it

The PR said it was only in maintenance because that's annoying, nowhere else because they didn't want to limit the sandbox

I think either something broke in the code or the map just thinks dorms is maintenance??

Yo btw while I'm thinking of it why is ONLY THE AI alerted when a hack happens? Why should the AI be the filter for that information (or it just vanishes if there isn't a living AI)

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:43 am Yo btw while I'm thinking of it why is ONLY THE AI alerted when a hack happens? Why should the AI be the filter for that information (or it just vanishes if there isn't a living AI)

It's because that's what I did for Ninja, because AI was the only role alerted by any of the hacks ninja did before I touched it and I kept it that way.

It's a bad idea to use areas to limit things because it's not easy for users to find out which areas end where too.

Areas are a spook

Gonna use the station blueprints to delete the bridge so nobody can hack the comms console like a genius

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:43 am Gonna use the station blueprints to delete the bridge so nobody can hack the comms console like a genius

wizards should be able to steal buy a reality's blueprints for 2 wizard points and any area they delete gets replaced with a chasm. (1 use)

i wonder how differently hacking comms consoles would if it played as a point defense thing with a station announcement where the crew had to use pinpointers to find where the console was & prevent the hack manually

oranges wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:15 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:17 am

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:39 am - some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward

glad someone mentioned this. hacking the bridge console is 10 TC whereas killing the HoS's pet is like 1-2 TC. kidnapping is not much more valuable than bugging a microchip. the more risky and harder objectives need to be bumped way up in their reward because currently there's absolutely 0 reason to do them

Surely this is to disincentivise kidnapping pets while leaving it open as a flavour option

Kidnapping pets is unfortunately among the better objectives to take. They reward 2-3 TC which is around the same as kidnapping humans and delivering them to the syndicate. Most common by far are bug/steal objectives, which are often easier but usually only reward 0-2 TC. These will be your options - that 10 TC bridge hack objective doesn't even get unlocked until after you've finished several of the smaller ones.

cringefulbliss in this thread trying to convince coders prog tot is bad

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:38 pm if a revert is out of the window, a change that essentially reverts them also is what the hell are you smoking

Ah yes begging and sharting the orange man not to ruin spessmens is what I have missed.

On the other hand, I don't like how tot has essentially boiled down to a gig economy like craigslist. Just feels less like an elite badass hitman/saboteur/enforcer and more like a glorified janitor that hangs fucking posters.

Xango wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:45 pm

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:38 pm if a revert is out of the window, a change that essentially reverts them also is what the hell are you smoking

Ah yes begging and sharting the orange man not to ruin spessmens is what I have missed.

On the other hand, I don't like how tot has essentially boiled down to a gig economy like craigslist. Just feels less like an elite badass hitman/saboteur/enforcer and more like a glorified janitor that hangs fucking posters.

Very dramatic.
These things can and will be improved.

I literally don't know who to talk to about what to do to contribute to progtot. Last time I spoke to a maint (I will not name names) about it, the discussion basically concluded that doing the objectives every time you get progtot is playing it wrong, because you'll burn yourself out on the content. Which, to me, is kind of a red flag coming from a maintainer. That seemed to suggest doing the thing progtot wants you to do to engage with its unique content isn't sustainable across multiple rounds.

I'm not sure what the alternative is meant to be that they were suggesting, they never gave me one, but I really don't feel confident that anyone has any idea what is meant to be happening next or whether progtot is accomplishing its goals. That alone makes me deeply hesitant to want to contribute content.

Also, is Walter actually able to be approached about progtot or has he entirely washed his hands of it?

I've seen waltermelon respond to questions about progression traitor development when pinged, specifically wrt the open PR about replacing the (long-standing placeholder) "just earn some points" objectives.

Xango wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:45 pm

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:38 pm if a revert is out of the window, a change that essentially reverts them also is what the hell are you smoking

Ah yes begging and sharting the orange man not to ruin spessmens is what I have missed.

On the other hand, I don't like how tot has essentially boiled down to a gig economy like craigslist. Just feels less like an elite badass hitman/saboteur/enforcer and more like a glorified janitor that hangs fucking posters.

My two major gripes with progtots are the fact that final objectives are timegated behind 90 minutes, like I fought tooth and nail to get to ledgendary status before the captain calls the shuttle because he stubbed his toe or some shit only to get denied by timegates that are not explained or stated anywhere.

The other one is the steal timers fuck those things they are way too long

The main issue with progtot is the person that made it tossed in a bunch of half-baked shitty objectives (which they themselves agreed were shitty) then said "everyone feel free to contribute!" Then no one really contributed so it stayed shitty and will probably remain shitty for the foreseeable future, just like experisci (scan them toilets).

It's like coders think adding the structure of some gameplay loop without any of the content inside that gameplay loop will somehow improve the game because the structure is better. It's like tearing down a beautiful 1-story 1-bedroom house and replacing it with a 4-story brick shithouse with no interior.

i think the reason why there are no good objectives is because the design of prog tots is inherently flawed, not because “nobody is making objectives”

The main thing I don't like about progtot is what it did to objectives. Objectives used to be a suggestion for when you had nothing better in mind. Now they're a dance you have to do every tator round to get fun toys to play with.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:14 am i think the reason why there are no good objectives is because the design of prog tots is inherently flawed, not because “nobody is making objectives”

Can't come up with an objective which requires a lack of consequences for the victim (incompatible with mrp) and needs the antag to antagonize (required for lrp). Shout out to smartkar's bomb objective which was loud as hell but still got nerfed to nothing (nobody is being ousted for the chance to blow up half a room) because being on a metal deathtrap isn't compatible with the rp which is conducted on the roleplaying game about being on a metal deathtrap

The issue with progtot in its very nature is that it incentivizes the lowest common denominator to interact with the station and it's crew as little as fucking possible so you can plow through low-risk bullshit in a laundry list. Contractor kind of worked because you had to opt in and actually had to interact with the other players to get that sweet bonus premium currency. The idea of earning more TC isn't bad in and of itself, but it needs to be done much more narrowly and to a limited degree, so it's optional. Progtot has reduced the average Manuel morning round to 7 antags, 20 pop and multiple people running around with 40+ TC. It's actually insane how much dynamic spams these 3 cost progtot sleeper agents, but that's a dynamic and weighting thing in and of itself.

Kassori wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:33 pm The issue with progtot in its very nature is that it incentivizes the lowest common denominator to interact with the station and it's crew as little as fucking possible so you can plow through low-risk bullshit in a laundry list. Contractor kind of worked because you had to opt in and actually had to interact with the other players to get that sweet bonus premium currency. The idea of earning more TC isn't bad in and of itself, but it needs to be done much more narrowly and to a limited degree, so it's optional. Progtot has reduced the average Manuel morning round to 7 antags, 20 pop and multiple people running around with 40+ TC. It's actually insane how much dynamic spams these 3 cost progtot sleeper agents, but that's a dynamic and weighting thing in and of itself.

Don't blame progtot for manuel administration and players approach to conflict