Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

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Alphanerdd
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Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Alphanerdd » #633066

The topic of revives, medical, and round removals is a pretty controversial issue around here, but its clear that lots of people aren't happy with the current state of it. Therefore in this rambling manifesto I propose that defibrillator revives be limited to only five minutes after death. This is a pretty extreme take, but I think it's worth discussing and could lead to some good conversation. Below I am going to go over what are, in my opinion, the problems with revives, the pros of the five minute system, and the inevitable cons.

Problems with Revival:
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The Solution:
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The Pros:
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The Cons:
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Conclusion:
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Last edited by Alphanerdd on Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Farquaar » #633070

I wouldn't mind if this change was implemented.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Mothblocks » #633073

didn't we already have this when cloning was removed but the defib timer wasn't? and it was extremely unfun?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by tjatpbnj » #633078

Revival surgery still worked so it is different
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Pandarsenic » #633090

If you could make timed-out brains MMI-viable but not body-viable that might be cool and let people who really want to come back do so with compromises.

I am EXTREMELY into the idea of encouraging suboptimal alternatives by making the defib less of a catch-all, as long as we get more of those alternatives.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by iain0 » #633091

Oh good, lets put shit loads of pressure on medics to do their job perfectly and first time or their patient is round removed. Already a fairly thankless job now you can expect 5x the bitching for taking too long to do your job (usually by people who never had jobs and never did them).

Sounds horrible. I don't know who's really winning in this change.

Edit: Oh yeah, medical's usually a shit show of grief and people fighting each other which medics also have to deal with while being medics. Also ignoring dead bodies is an issue.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by iamgoofball » #633103

iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:31 am Edit: Oh yeah, medical's usually a shit show of grief and people fighting each other which medics also have to deal with while being medics. Also ignoring dead bodies is an issue.
i wonder who's job it is to stop that griefing
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by iain0 » #633105

iamgoofball wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:24 am
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:31 am Edit: Oh yeah, medical's usually a shit show of grief and people fighting each other which medics also have to deal with while being medics. Also ignoring dead bodies is an issue.
i wonder who's job it is to stop that griefing
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Ah yes, I'll just press the "Disable Griefing" at startup.

Also a lot of it is just escalation and stuff brought into the medical room so isn't necessarily something administrative either.

I was talking more from my perspective as a CMO actually, and I'm not admining while playing so.

Useful input though, nice.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by iamgoofball » #633106

iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:30 am I was talking more from my perspective as a CMO actually, and I'm not admining while playing so.
have you tried adminhelping when the grief occurs?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Archie700 » #633124

Ah yes because ahelping and having to write up a story in the middle of the round would definitely help when I have a limited amount of time to begin with to revive the patient.
Literally just space the body or incinerate if you really want a person gone.
And this timer makes players MORE angry, not less. It doesn't do anything to encourage ghost roles, it just punishes the dead player for something they have no control over.
I have literally been left in medbay central without being revived a few times and this does not solve the problem with medbay leaving dead bodies untreated.
Essentially you are punishing the player for dying to get medbay to revive.

EDIT: I want to note that encouraging ghost roles through hardcoding timed revivals is a terrible idea. Ghost roles are by their very nature different from station crew to begin with and setting a revival timer so that Dead McCorpse will be "encouraged" to play Ash-Lig or Stuck DeCharlie is not encouragement.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by NoxVS » #633148

Alphanerdd wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:18 pm 6. No More Corpse Piles!
The bane of any medical doctor. A pile of corpses, all with severe organ decay, and waiting to be revived. Doctors often have to chose between treating the corpse pile, which is always a losing battle, or just treating newer patients. Usually newer patients take priority over old ones, and they just end up forgotten. So ultimately we would be better off making corpses unrevivable after some time. Finally doctors can just put max organ decay bodies in the morgue without feeling guilty, and actually treat patients who can be saved.
I feel like you are sort of glancing over the fact that these corpse piles still exist, they are all just permanently round removed.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Helios » #633149

Let's limit revival to 5 minutes, to be brought back via cloning.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Unoki » #633152

Making stasis bed not stop decay would remove their purpose, Stasis bags could work with that 5 minutes brain dead thingy
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by iain0 » #633161

iamgoofball wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:34 am
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:30 am I was talking more from my perspective as a CMO actually, and I'm not admining while playing so.
have you tried adminhelping when the grief occurs?
Your perspective is beyond oversimplified. Both of them.

The word is more flexible than meaning a strict rule break. Also admins are not actually preventative ; our existence doesn't hugely /prevent/ grief or issues, we're more reactionary and spend several minutes after something happens talking to people and investigating ; the issue still remains.

And besides, my point really was just about how many things will end up contributing to revival delays, which can now be round removal.
Person spends too long carrying the corpse to medical?
MD is inexperienced, maybe stabs the patient a couple of times while trying to fix em?
Maybe gets distracted?
Maybe two people working on the same corpse would have gotten it revived faster?
Maybe I shouldn't have gone for a sneaky piss during that tend wounds?
God help you if you're a husked miner heh.
Arguments about 'why even start trying' when a husked body turns up with 4 minutes on their clock. You ignore them because there's other people to fix, they get round removed.

So much OOC anger and salt will pour down from some people on any and every poor choice anyone made which lead to them being round removed. And a lot of that will land on the MDs. The few people in this game who do a job SOLELY for someone elses benefit, practically unlike any other job. (As in literally can't even fix themselves, meanwhile most departments fail inter-department relationships because they only do what benefits them directly in their goals)

This is what the gist of my point it, how shitty it will be for the round removed players and the MDs who get the flak from this change. Also maybe something about simply removing medical content because it'll be super short-and-bursty now.

Also make suit sensors report this stuff, it's already almost guaranteed that if you go space/lavaland hunting to revive someone they'll probably have DNRed even if you got there in 5 minutes after they died, just because they expect to not be recovered. Knowing that most of these will have lapsed their timer or be "on the edge of failing" just means there's likely no point even trying to recover these depending on the timer, which if you don't know you'll just assume the worst. Space tends to husk people too which even more guarantees they can't be fixed in time.


Just doesn't seem positive in most of its outcomes, as a player or as an MD. Administratively there isn't much to say to this though its inevitable someone will ahelp because it took someone longer than it should to have gotten their corpse to medbay, or they stayed to finish a fight rather than instantly getting the corpse to medbay. But whatever, bus will rule on these things if/when necessary.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by BrianBackslide » #633169

Response times are typically 10-15 minutes before even being discovered, and that's WITH suit sensors. Nevermind if you die in a hard-to-reach location. Seems like the go-to would be to carve out the brain, MMI, and then fix the body.

Death should be more impactful. Of that I agree. But a hard round removal time limit should not be the way to go about it. Traumas, losing max HP, damage modifiers/multipliers should come as the result of death. Not ones that can be fixed/fixed without consequence by medical either.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Alphanerdd » #633171

NoxVS wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:24 am
Alphanerdd wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:18 pm 6. No More Corpse Piles!
The bane of any medical doctor. A pile of corpses, all with severe organ decay, and waiting to be revived. Doctors often have to chose between treating the corpse pile, which is always a losing battle, or just treating newer patients. Usually newer patients take priority over old ones, and they just end up forgotten. So ultimately we would be better off making corpses unrevivable after some time. Finally doctors can just put max organ decay bodies in the morgue without feeling guilty, and actually treat patients who can be saved.
I feel like you are sort of glancing over the fact that these corpse piles still exist, they are all just permanently round removed.
Typically when you have huge piles of corpses in medical, they are effectively round removed already. 9 times out of 10 medical doesn't have the staff, resources, or time to replace all of those organs and get those people walking again. If medical does have the capability to revive that many people, usually its because the station is in good condition, and there wouldn't be a huge pile of corpses to begin with. Whether or not the corpses are actually round removed or not doesn't change the outcome that much. The only difference is all the ghost players feel the need to stick around, and the doctors have more items on their to-do list.
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:31 am Oh good, lets put shit loads of pressure on medics to do their job perfectly and first time or their patient is round removed. Already a fairly thankless job now you can expect 5x the bitching for taking too long to do your job (usually by people who never had jobs and never did them).
I think you're overestimating how long it takes for someone to get revived. From my experience in medical the "meta" is to stasis bed, fix most of the damage, then revive. However, if you prioritize reviving first, you can actually get someone alive fairly quickly. Combine that with formaldehyde, which there's always plenty of, and you've got a pretty lenient amount of time to revive someone.

Although if the 5-10 minutes ends up too unforgiving, I think having formaldehyde pause the timer entirely while its in the corpse would also work. It would basically give unlimited time as long as the medical staff is paying attention.
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:31 am Edit: Oh yeah, medical's usually a shit show of grief and people fighting each other which medics also have to deal with while being medics. Also ignoring dead bodies is an issue.
The whole point is to make ignoring dead bodies (after a certain point) not an issue, and something expected. This lets medics spend their time doing other things, including handling griefers and people fighting each other.
Unoki wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:27 am Making stasis bed not stop decay would remove their purpose, Stasis bags could work with that 5 minutes brain dead thingy
Yeah I'm still not 100% sure on this one. On one hand stasis beds not stopping decay would feel weird, but on the other hand i think it would be a bit too easy if they did. It would be a way to infinitely extend the timer with no resource cost. I think mechanically formaldehyde is a better solution, but to be honest I could go either way.
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:21 pm And besides, my point really was just about how many things will end up contributing to revival delays, which can now be round removal.
Person spends too long carrying the corpse to medical?
MD is inexperienced, maybe stabs the patient a couple of times while trying to fix em?
Maybe gets distracted?
Maybe two people working on the same corpse would have gotten it revived faster?
Maybe I shouldn't have gone for a sneaky piss during that tend wounds?
God help you if you're a husked miner heh.
Arguments about 'why even start trying' when a husked body turns up with 4 minutes on their clock. You ignore them because there's other people to fix, they get round removed.
Lots of other jobs have high risk tasks that can easily result in mass death if they aren't handled properly.
What if an engineer goes for a sneaky piss while setting up SM and it delams?
What if a scientist is inexperienced and opens a plasma canister while doing toxins?
What if a sec officer lets a changeling escape because they decided to handle it solo?

In my opinion there's no reason that medical can't have situations with similar stakes. Round removal may be more common but I think it would result in more exciting gameplay (Then again I am biased, since personally I don't really care if I die/get removed). I think the best solution to RR via medical malpractice is to leave the dead / critical patients to the experienced medics who know how to handle it quickly, the same way you don't let a new engineer set up SM unsupervised.

And with 400 burn miner husks, should those even be getting revived? Like if it happens great, but I think most people playing shaft miner expect that death is basically round removal for them. Megafauna literally gib you on death. Mining has always been high risk high reward, and death on lavaland is 95% of the time permanent anyways.
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:21 pm So much OOC anger and salt will pour down from some people on any and every poor choice anyone made which lead to them being round removed. And a lot of that will land on the MDs. The few people in this game who do a job SOLELY for someone elses benefit, practically unlike any other job. (As in literally can't even fix themselves, meanwhile most departments fail inter-department relationships because they only do what benefits them directly in their goals)

This is what the gist of my point it, how shitty it will be for the round removed players and the MDs who get the flak from this change. Also maybe something about simply removing medical content because it'll be super short-and-bursty now.
This would probably be the initial reaction, but I think it would just take players time to get used to the new system. Right now if you're body gets to medical and a doctor begins treating it, its basically a guaranteed revive. The expectation is to get back 100% of the time, and if the doctor fucks up you just wait longer. With this change that wouldn't be the case, as now there's a decent chance that a player might not get revived. I know it sounds a bit idealistic, but hopefully the mentality would shift from "How did they not manage to revive???" to "I actually got revived???" Basically by removing the guarantee of revives, while still retaining the skill factor of all parties, getting revived will be viewed as a positive outcome as opposed to just what's expected.

Do I think that's what will happen? Maybe, who knows? It definitely won't happen immediately tho, and there will be some salt until it does.
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:21 pm Also make suit sensors report this stuff, it's already almost guaranteed that if you go space/lavaland hunting to revive someone they'll probably have DNRed even if you got there in 5 minutes after they died, just because they expect to not be recovered. Knowing that most of these will have lapsed their timer or be "on the edge of failing" just means there's likely no point even trying to recover these depending on the timer, which if you don't know you'll just assume the worst. Space tends to husk people too which even more guarantees they can't be fixed in time.
This is unironically a good idea. Even if none of this revival limit stuff happens suit sensors should still report DNR and disconnected. As for there being no point in recovering certain bodies, in some cases yeah, there won't be. If you get ejected in to space, you probably aren't coming back. For other situations where it might be possible, that's where the paramedic shines since they have the tools needed to both extend the timer and get the back to med fast.
Archie700 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:34 am Ah yes because ahelping and having to write up a story in the middle of the round would definitely help when I have a limited amount of time to begin with to revive the patient.
Literally just space the body or incinerate if you really want a person gone.
And this timer makes players MORE angry, not less. It doesn't do anything to encourage ghost roles, it just punishes the dead player for something they have no control over.
I have literally been left in medbay central without being revived a few times and this does not solve the problem with medbay leaving dead bodies untreated.
Essentially you are punishing the player for dying to get medbay to revive.

EDIT: I want to note that encouraging ghost roles through hardcoding timed revivals is a terrible idea. Ghost roles are by their very nature different from station crew to begin with and setting a revival timer so that Dead McCorpse will be "encouraged" to play Ash-Lig or Stuck DeCharlie is not encouragement.
The goal isn't to encourage ghost roles. Whether or not that actually happens isn't the point. If it does (and I think this change would) that's just an added bonus. Personally, I would be way more likely to try ghost roles if I didn't have the chance of reviving. But if other people don't have the same attitude that's fine, it's not really the point.

I'll be honest i don't get what you mean by "punishing players for dying." Yeah, it does. That's the point, make death more impactful.
No more "lol i killed my liver in the bar but its okay because medical will fix me." If you're going to drink yourself to death, commit to the bit.
If medical can't revive you that's how it is, shouldn't have died, skill issue.

You aren't entitled to a revive the moment you go sideways, but right now reviving is so easy most fresh corpses in medical will get revived. Some players are so used to getting back up that they treat it as a given, and if they aren't revived they go full pissbaby.

And as I've said, the change is supposed to make untreated dead bodies not an issue. Medbay usually doesn't revive them anyway, and now they aren't expected to.
BrianBackslide wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:13 pm Response times are typically 10-15 minutes before even being discovered, and that's WITH suit sensors. Nevermind if you die in a hard-to-reach location. Seems like the go-to would be to carve out the brain, MMI, and then fix the body.

Death should be more impactful. Of that I agree. But a hard round removal time limit should not be the way to go about it. Traumas, losing max HP, damage modifiers/multipliers should come as the result of death. Not ones that can be fixed/fixed without consequence by medical either.
Response times are so long right now in part because response time isn't that important. With these changes players would have to adapt if they want to successfully revive people. They already have the tools, and there's already an entire job for it. It's just up to the department to actually use what they have.

Throwing the brain into an MMI seems like a pretty creative solution, although i doubt it would become too widespread considering it is often just easier to revive normally. If it did actually become a meta thing then it would probably need to be addressed.

I don't think penalties for being revived are the way to go. Stuff like max hp and damage modifiers would just make you die quicker the next time, and no one enjoys floating in and out of medical forever. Eventually either you would become so fragile that you might as well DNR, or medical will just get tired of reviving you and let you rot. Traumas are better, but still not great. I think having them be impossible to remove would be pretty unfun, and as those stack up it would start to get unplayable.

The idea of having the timer is to make death a risk. It is entirely possible to get revived and go about your shift, but every time you go ghost there is a non zero chance that you won't come back from this one, and that uncertainty is what would give it impact.
Last edited by Alphanerdd on Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Alphanerdd » #633172

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:26 am If you could make timed-out brains MMI-viable but not body-viable that might be cool and let people who really want to come back do so with compromises.

I am EXTREMELY into the idea of encouraging suboptimal alternatives by making the defib less of a catch-all, as long as we get more of those alternatives.
I like this idea. I wanted to have MMI's pause the timer since having roboticists lose brains would kind of suck, but at the same time that allows it to be abused.

This seems like a good balance
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by nianjiilical » #633179

i read this thread while sleep deprived and for some reason my brain parsed the intent as "once someone dies they are unrevivable until 5 minutes have passed" and i was so confused
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Alphanerdd » #633182

nianjiilical wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:18 pm i read this thread while sleep deprived and for some reason my brain parsed the intent as "once someone dies they are unrevivable until 5 minutes have passed" and i was so confused
I wrote it while sleep deprived so I understand the confusion
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Archie700 » #633214

I recall a round where I was killed by a traitor, got brought to medical and put on a statsis bed as captain. I was never revived for the rest of the round and the round ended without anyone even taking a look at my body.

I was the only body for half the round in medbay.

Imagine how pissed off people will be if you put a hard revive timer on top of that. A mechanic that basically punishes dead players for the incompetence of medbay will not be obvious to doctors, especially new ones. And we have the problem of having to replace heads and the time it actually takes to find and retrieve a dead body, especially in lavaland if people actually care about saving miners. And the possible issue of having to treat and revive multiple dead people after a murderboning traitor or heretic.

This isn't even mentioning the adminstrative nightmare that is handling ahelps regarding people being allowed to expire because of metagrudging or, even worse deliberately bullying medbay with greytiding to prevent someone from being revived as a nonantag.

If people aren't reviving you quickly in medbay, they aren't doing it because it's not an urgent matter. They doing it because either

1) There are a lot of bodies to revive and they're trying to prioritize.
2) They're BAD.

Your idea would just put more unnecessary pressure on 1) and just punish other people for having 2).
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Justice12354 » #633224

iamgoofball wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:24 am
iprice wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:31 am Edit: Oh yeah, medical's usually a shit show of grief and people fighting each other which medics also have to deal with while being medics. Also ignoring dead bodies is an issue.
i wonder who's job it is to stop that griefing
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Thank you so much for reminding us of how we can rewind time! I truly forgot about it. We are like Thanos with all the infinity stones. With a snap of fingers, we can go back in time and stop the grief!!
Now seriously, we cannot stop the grief that happened from happening. We punish it. We can also try to help fixing the side effects, but, as far as I know, it would be really bad if I spawned myself in with a wand of resurrection because some griefer decided to show up and throw an MD into a wall repeatedly. The player who was in the stasis bed is now round removed because the Medical Doctor couldn't help them in time and had to stop the tider in the meantime.
Your comment just came off as dumb. You're acting like admins can get into tiders' minds and stop them.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by toemas » #633236

This would be really fun but the average medical department is too incompetent to handle it
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by massa » #633261

the idea is fine but all of your takes are heinous
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Kel » #633265

corpse piles that can be revived but arent = bad
corpse piles that can't be revived period = good?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Farquaar » #633267

Kel wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:21 pm corpse piles that can be revived but arent = bad
corpse piles that can't be revived period = good?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Cobby » #633272

I think, generally, the current system is fine where the body becomes progressively more obnoxious to treat the longer it stays away from medical up to a point (organ damage). I think it is also conflicting to say death is trivial but then a few lines down explain the work involved is extensive and obnoxious.

I thought the defib time was dumb and arbitrary tbh, and thought tying it to organ damage was more immersive and tangible.

The kicker imo is that surgery itself isnt very fun. Inventory Tetris, click, pop up youtube is not a fun system. Frankly I'd rather just scrap all the tools, have a generic surgery kit (we can prob have upgrades that make it easier to win the minigame), then you run a minigame instead. Even better would be a system where the patient can help so they can speed up the process as well if they engage with the game.

What if we had like organ zuma or something and if you have a player patient they can shoot the balls on the other side to help clear it faster lol. Your surgery kit can store like the little boosts a la candy crush microtransactions that make clearing faster.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by cacogen » #633318

5. Organ Decay Sucks.
I don't think it's really a hot take to say that organ decay is unfun. Nothing feels worse than having a pile of corpses with nonfunctioning organs that you somehow need to get walking again. Printing a full set of mechanical organs is very expensive, and unless you've been on the organ farming grindset, you wont have enough squishy organs to meet demands. It's also time consuming as fuck to revive someone with a chest cavity full of sludge. Not to mention brain traumas which require even more surgery to get rid off. Organ decay also is a big reason why operating tables almost never get used, since decay is such a pain to deal with. With the way organ decay works now, it feels intentionally designed to discourage revives after long periods of time, and push doctors towards treating the more recently deceased or injured. However, by having these corpses be revivable at all, people are going to try, and it results in no fun for everyone involved.
This is absolutely correct and your suggested solution of throwing the entire possibility of revival out the window because of it is completely the wrong way to go.
Cobby wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:04 pm I think, generally, the current system is fine where the body becomes progressively more obnoxious to treat the longer it stays away from medical up to a point (organ damage). I think it is also conflicting to say death is trivial but then a few lines down explain the work involved is extensive and obnoxious.
Nothing should be obnoxious as a method of balance. What the OP is suggesting, just taking the choice out of players' hands completely, is a far more empathetic way to go about it because it actually takes into consideration players' time and effort and what they want to do even if it's miserable. But we should be making it less miserable on them instead of making death suck even more.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #634250

Not sure if this is the best implementation, but I am all for permadeath.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #634251

Lots of other jobs have high risk tasks that can easily result in mass death if they aren't handled properly.
What if an engineer goes for a sneaky piss while setting up SM and it delams?
What if a scientist is inexperienced and opens a plasma canister while doing toxins?
What if a sec officer lets a changeling escape because they decided to handle it solo?
an engineer doesn't take a piss while setting up the sm unless they are pissing themselves.
a scientist dies a lot while opening plasma cans thats just toxins sometimes.
oh well thats the game not death.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #634261

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:13 pmNot sure if this is the best implementation, but I am all for permadeath.
Good luck dying in space or on mining, almost all examples offered cover the station but need to acknowledge there won't be accessible rule 12 violating fallbacks like mass-scale podpeople blood-farms to speed or bypass prolonged retrieval times including shuttle-trips from lavaland, obstacles (enormous space holes, greytide, airlocks, antagonists) and other circumstances.

Archie700 is completely correct, it takes very little effort to hide a body and many rounds players can/have lay in a mundane place like a welded box, stasis bed (past my time compared to the cryotube, or flipped down sleeper), or even a inner wall cavity.

Spoiler:
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #634275

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:55 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:13 pmNot sure if this is the best implementation, but I am all for permadeath.
Good luck dying in space or on mining, almost all examples offered cover the station but need to acknowledge there won't be accessible rule 12 violating fallbacks like mass-scale podpeople blood-farms to speed or bypass prolonged retrieval times including shuttle-trips from lavaland, obstacles (enormous space holes, greytide, airlocks, antagonists) and other circumstances.

Archie700 is completely correct, it takes very little effort to hide a body and many rounds players can/have lay in a mundane place like a welded box, stasis bed (past my time compared to the cryotube, or flipped down sleeper), or even a inner wall cavity.
What

Edit: I don't comprehend what you are trying to tell me, and I am unsure of how it relates to my statement.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #634279

In short, if you had to watch a player do as it was back in the day easily ignore your trapped corpse for a hour even when you can be instantaneously revived and returned into the round (using podpeople as a more current substitute for cloning), you'd easily be jaded into potentially changing that outlook of a 5 minute perma-deathspan. There's some more explanations of my points in the spoiler.
► Show Spoiler
Off Topic
If it helps make amends, ill remove my quotation. I thought i was getting that point of view across, if not exactly talking directly "at you" so apologies for any confusion.

Spoiler:
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Cobby » #634434

cacogen wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:31 am Nothing should be obnoxious as a method of balance. What the OP is suggesting, just taking the choice out of players' hands completely, is a far more empathetic way to go about it because it actually takes into consideration players' time and effort and what they want to do even if it's miserable. But we should be making it less miserable on them instead of making death suck even more.
ok how about "I think, generally, the current system is fine where it takes a proportional amount of time to treat equal to the longer it stays away from medical up to a point (organ damage)". It is only "obnoxious" in the sense that surgery itself is obnoxious because youre not DOING anything and theres no real skill involved beyond "do you know the next step", in which case I think the solution isnt about making it faster; surgery should just be refitted to be enjoyable as an activity.

Id also like surgery to optionally involve the patient even if it doesnt make sense from a realistic pov, in which case the individual could play a role in speeding up their own revival.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by cacogen » #634458

Please don't add a minigame for surgery. Just don't require people to be in their body for longer than say two minutes of crit and add a proper TGUI window for it similar to the strip window so the state of the patient is self-evident and surgery requires less pixel hunting.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #634520

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:36 pm In short, if you had to watch a player do as it was back in the day easily ignore your trapped corpse for a hour even when you can be instantaneously revived and returned into the round (using podpeople as a more current substitute for cloning), you'd easily be jaded into potentially changing that outlook of a 5 minute perma-deathspan. There's some more explanations of my points in the spoiler.
Gotcha
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by cacogen » #634673

Why don't we limit the time players have to spend in crit to 2 minutes? After that, they could just ghost without being separated from their bodies. Crit used to be 20 seconds without the peephole, then it was extended to five minutes (which is already asking a lot from players for a chance at avoiding death) and the peephole was added to make it suck less.

Now because of stasis beds, crit can last potentially infinitely. By allowing players to ghost freely during it, it would make being revived on a stasis bed less shit, and would disincentivise players from succumbing during revivals that are taking too long.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by PKPenguin321 » #635112

Consider this: Death shouldn't just be trivial or not trivial. If you get into a scuffle, you should be able to have a very trivial death and revival. If you are specifically targeted by a well equipped syndicate assassin, you should have a non trivial death. What if we made death as it is a bit more trivial by pulling back on organ decay, but then also added a way to make death more permanent if done in a specific way, perhaps by, say, gibbing? Think about it
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Bawhoppennn » #635127

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:13 pm Not sure if this is the best implementation, but I am all for permadeath.
Excellent take by Itseasytosee yet again. I am so sick of people complaining about round removal... at this stage, honestly, all deaths should just be round removals to get people to stop complaining. (yes they'd complain more but they'd have no grounds to any longer is what I mean)
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Farquaar » #635155

Bawhoppennn wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:49 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:13 pm Not sure if this is the best implementation, but I am all for permadeath.
Excellent take by Itseasytosee yet again. I am so sick of people complaining about round removal... at this stage, honestly, all deaths should just be round removals to get people to stop complaining. (yes they'd complain more but they'd have no grounds to any longer is what I mean)
Honestly, what else could be better for increasing paranoia?

Maybe then you wouldn't have antags (both on LRP and MRP) who just openly tell people they're antags with no consequences.
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Agux909 » #635157

Alphanerdd wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:18 pm The topic of revives, medical, and round removals is a pretty controversial issue around here, but its clear that lots of people aren't happy with the current state of it. Therefore in this rambling manifesto I propose that defibrillator revives be limited to only five minutes after death. This is a pretty extreme take, but I think it's worth discussing and could lead to some good conversation. Below I am going to go over what are, in my opinion, the problems with revives, the pros of the five minute system, and the inevitable cons.

Problems with Revival:
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The Solution:
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The Pros:
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The Cons:
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Conclusion:
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I don't understand the core motivation to push so hard for players NOT staying in the game. Death isn't really trivial as you're making it sound. You depend on the competency of the medbay staff currently present on station, as opposed to any player with any amount of playtime being taught to break into a room to push a button. That was trivial death, what we have now is a relatively good compromise between risk and the fact this is still a silly, social game. Keeping most people around usually ends up as a net positive. What do you gain when the MD fails to revive by 5 seconds that poor assistant that just wanted to redecorate the bar and chill, but arrived to a spaced arrivals and had to end up in the morgue because medbay was busy to retrieve his body on time?

What does anyone gain by putting a threshold of auto-round removal? Aside from "making death less trivial" as some sort of statement, how does this affect the game in a positive light? Do you want less people to remain in the round that much?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by cacogen » #635267

It shouldn't take longer than 5 minutes to revive someone : )
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Kendrickorium » #635836

maybe you should all just leave it the fuck alone holy shit
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635864

You've never actually played Medical, or experienced a competent Medbay, have you?
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Re: Limit revival to 5 minutes after death

Post by Shadowflame909 » #635866

why cant you check modsuit bags without full disabling the suit

annoying on station

deadly in space/breached area/on plasmamen

fikou fix plzzzz
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