/tg/Station 13

Randomized wires between departments means "test by hand, get shocked once or twice and you're set" is no longer viable for long-distance B&E travel (e.g. when the AI is rogue) - only practicably solvable by getting Insulated Gloves or "acquiring" the Engineering Skillchips

Reinforced Windows are stupidly strong. For single-facing R-glass, some counts of how much you have to hit them are:
29 Laser Shots to break a reinforced windoor. 19 laser shots to open a locker. 30 laser shots to destroy an airlock.

50 fucking swings of a Circular Saw to destroy a full-tile R-glass window!

Similarly, deconstructing reinforced glass was made into a tedious, drawn-out process.

Why exactly is it necessary that the station be so... durable? What was it meant to accomplish, and does it do it successfully?

The failure to hold back the greytide resulted in code changes. People couldn't be trusted with freedom so freedom was taken away.

Failures of administration lead to failures from coderbus

Crew nerfs while antags stayed the same

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:57 am Randomized wires between departments means "test by hand, get shocked once or twice and you're set" is no longer viable for long-distance B&E travel (e.g. when the AI is rogue) - only practicably solvable by getting Insulated Gloves or "acquiring" the Engineering Skillchips

Reinforced Windows are stupidly strong. For single-facing R-glass, some counts of how much you have to hit them are:

Code: Select all

Toolbox (real)		32

Circular Saw		25
Surgical Drill		25

Laser Scalpel		24
Laser ScalSaw		23

Spear (Wield)		21
Spear (Throw)		18

Lasers			4

Insufficient Force	Scalpel, Oxygen Tanks, Fire Extinguisher, etc.

(To break a full window, attack either 2x or 2x-1 times from listed, e.g. 50 circular saw swings but 7 laser shots)

29 Laser Shots to break a reinforced windoor. 19 laser shots to open a locker. 30 laser shots to destroy an airlock.

50 fucking swings of a Circular Saw to destroy a full-tile R-glass window!

Similarly, deconstructing reinforced glass was made into a tedious, drawn-out process.

Why exactly is it necessary that the station be so... durable? What was it meant to accomplish, and does it do it successfully?

yeah these are all deliberate changes to make it harder for shitheads to run all over the station breaking things, and encourage people to seek out access/tailgate instead of going thru the windows/ otherwise smashing the place up

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/45609
The "why is it good for the game" section here explains everything about the window change nicely.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/52563
This is the airlock wire change. Before this people would often share the color of the "gamer wire" over comms near roundstart, effectively causing everyone and their mother to be able to open any airlock with next to no effort.

i think things can be afforded a quicker deconstruction (takes ages to decon r-windows) but overall I think the durability of things is fine. however i do think shooting airlocks with lasers should only take no less than two full laser guns to destroy them.

Because people were tired of every caveman with an oxygen tank being able to destroy half the station with little to no effort.

FWIW I believe actioninja told me they made r-windows far more powerful than they needed to be, because otherwise if they weren't powerful enough you'd just need to make more and more controversial change PRs.

killing some shithead breaking into your department for no reason and throwing the lifeless body out into the hallway to see if a doctor is feeling generous doesn't fly anymore and will instead result in you spending 30 minutes explaining to an admin how tired you were of the same shithead doing it all the time, so naturally people stopped doing that and oh wonder oh wonder people keep breaking into places but the people who are there by design and reason still don't like it so these things happened

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:41 pm FWIW I believe actioninja told me they made r-windows far more powerful than they needed to be, because otherwise if they weren't powerful enough you'd just need to make more and more controversial change PRs.

Please, I beg, dial it back at least a little on a trial basis + set faster times in the deconstruction actions and lower RCD costs to tear them down, so if you come prepared breaking through the window is a serious option that's not obviously less efficient compared to breaking through WALLS.

It should not be so much faster to tear the adjacent wall down compared to the windows. The fire axe should not be the only thing capable of making R-glass faster to clear than a literal 4-metal wall.

And if I can recommend, wires should at least display WHICH wire set they're on in the hacking panel so I can know when I've changed between maintenance, engineering, command, etc., configurations.

And if I can recommend, wires should at least display WHICH wire set they're on in the hacking panel so I can know when I've changed between maintenance, engineering, command, etc., configurations.

They do? I'm confused, it says at the top.

Alternate solution: have less reinforced windows, replace them with normal ones. Restrict them to areas with command access

But yeah, probably too strong. It bugs me.

normal glass windows are so hilariously weak that they're never used ever because just having iron rods in hand can break em

DeltaStation has 0 normal windows.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:17 pm

And if I can recommend, wires should at least display WHICH wire set they're on in the hacking panel so I can know when I've changed between maintenance, engineering, command, etc., configurations.

They do? I'm confused, it says at the top.

I... huh. I think I always missed it, even while specifically looking for it, because it's on the striped background.

... Is there any chance we could get a "wire memorization" feature that lets you fill in what a wire does (or you think it does) for a specific type of airlock? Like a manual version of fucking around with the blueprints or the Engineering skillchip.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:32 pm normal glass windows are so hilariously weak that they're never used ever because just having iron rods in hand can break em

give them the strength of old reinforced windows and use them in low security areas to make it easier to break in : )

Experimenting with a revert would be nice. Reinforced windows being removed by screwdriver-crowbar-screwdriver. That way even if they're physically strong, they can be moved. And after the person is finished breaking in and security arrests them, the people working in said department can put the window back in place with a screwdriver and crowbar.

Even if not just 1-2-1 back to back, at least not 39-50 seconds of 5 tools with no repetitions, including a fuckin' 18-second weld to start.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:32 pm normal glass windows are so hilariously weak that they're never used ever because just having iron rods in hand can break em

people being able to break into places / places breaking open as collateral when shit is going down is absolutely a-ok
only external, security, engineering/atmos and command windows should be reinforced

You are all complete idiots if you think reverting these changes is a good idea lol

We should make walls harder to breach instead

i agree that walls should take like two seconds longer but r-windows are so unbelievably robust. the only thing stopping r-window spam in departures being absolutely fucking game breaking is the fact that the fire axe exists

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:52 am You are all complete idiots if you think reverting these changes is a good idea lol

We should make walls harder to breach instead

Why?

Breaking in now requires a touch more preparation for an under-equipped player. It is now slightly longer for an under-prepared player.

God I still can't believe a change to make having gloves EVEN MORE POWERFUL happened. When was the fat fingers insulated gloves nerf added?

Re: Normal Windows, I was going to say some buffs to the grilles under them as the thing that's actually supposed to stop people might not be amiss, but then I remember grilles got buffed against kicking and other direct force, too.

Honestly, normal windows with grilles probably are nearly comparable to old RWindows with that factored in.

I really really hated that windows got so much stronger when this was first added, but I think I have come around to it a bit. I do think it's a bit much. At the very least the welder step of deconstructing an r-window should be removed.
Past that bare minimum change, I think r-windows could stand to take maybe a small nerf to health so that toolboxes can get through in say, 25 hits instead of 32. It's important to make it not too easy to get in but it's also important to not make the game boring, and standing perfectly still for 18 seconds while you weld a window or standing perfectly still while you bash a window for 45 consecutive seconds by spamming M1 is very, very boring.

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:52 am You are all complete idiots if you think reverting these changes is a good idea lol

We should make walls harder to breach instead

"Hurr hurr you are all compleeeete idiots if pffbbbtbbttthhh" shut up. If your epic argument is that "you are an idiot lol!" then behold my epic argument that blows yours the fuck out by the same logic: you are a dumb fucking stupid idiot babybrained tiny-wiener pisshead shit eating fart sucking dick licker who can munch on my asshair.

The easiest way to break into places now is to just deconstruct the wall with a welder. Even though that makes no sense and deconstructing walls should be the hardest thing to do. Wall buff soon probably

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:09 am
"Hurr hurr you are all compleeeete idiots if pffbbbtbbttthhh" shut up. If your epic argument is that "you are an idiot lol!" then behold my epic argument that blows yours the fuck out by the same logic: you are a dumb fucking stupid idiot babybrained tiny-wiener pisshead shit eating fart sucking dick licker who can munch on my asshair.

this guy gets it

but also:

our fucking greytide problem is ten times worse than when the window change was made i dont think you guys thought this through if you think this is a good idea
every window on the station will be smashed and airlocks will go completely unused within 15 minutes of the round starting

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:44 am

our fucking greytide problem is ten times worse than when the window change was made i dont think you guys thought this through if you think this is a good idea
every window on the station will be smashed and airlocks will go completely unused within 15 minutes of the round starting

if people smash windows for no reason simply smash their body in retaliation
the game was better when people handled their own problems and shitters got shat on

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:29 pm i agree that walls should take like two seconds longer but r-windows are so unbelievably robust. the only thing stopping r-window spam in departures being absolutely fucking game breaking is the fact that the fire axe exists

I cant believe I never realized how easy it was to hijack if I steal all the fire-axes first

terranaut wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:41 am

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:44 am

our fucking greytide problem is ten times worse than when the window change was made i dont think you guys thought this through if you think this is a good idea
every window on the station will be smashed and airlocks will go completely unused within 15 minutes of the round starting

if people smash windows for no reason simply smash their body in retaliation
the game was better when people handled their own problems and shitters got shat on

the shitters are smashing the windows because they want to fight you, they're there for a fight and are far more equipped and prepared for a fight than the person who just stumbled out of their department because a greyshit destroyed their windows

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:15 am

terranaut wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:41 am

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:44 am

our fucking greytide problem is ten times worse than when the window change was made i dont think you guys thought this through if you think this is a good idea
every window on the station will be smashed and airlocks will go completely unused within 15 minutes of the round starting

if people smash windows for no reason simply smash their body in retaliation
the game was better when people handled their own problems and shitters got shat on

the shitters are smashing the windows because they want to fight you, they're there for a fight and are far more equipped and prepared for a fight than the person who just stumbled out of their department because a greyshit destroyed their windows

now imagine not every piece of gear in existence had been nerfed into utter uselessness and you could just walk up to him, flash/stunglove/chloral hydrate/x him and beat him to death without having to worry about him winning the war of attrition or having that one broken meme thing that kills you which you allowed him to do because muh escalation despite him just being a griefing shithead
back in my day people never ever ran around with a fireaxe just smashing windows for fun because everybody knew all it'd do is earn you a one way ticket to deep space

terranaut wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:50 am

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:15 am

terranaut wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:41 am

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:44 am

our fucking greytide problem is ten times worse than when the window change was made i dont think you guys thought this through if you think this is a good idea
every window on the station will be smashed and airlocks will go completely unused within 15 minutes of the round starting

if people smash windows for no reason simply smash their body in retaliation
the game was better when people handled their own problems and shitters got shat on

the shitters are smashing the windows because they want to fight you, they're there for a fight and are far more equipped and prepared for a fight than the person who just stumbled out of their department because a greyshit destroyed their windows

now imagine not every piece of gear in existence had been nerfed into utter uselessness and you could just walk up to him, flash/stunglove/chloral hydrate/x him and beat him to death without having to worry about him winning the war of attrition or having that one broken meme thing that kills you which you allowed him to do because muh escalation despite him just being a griefing shithead
back in my day people never ever ran around with a fireaxe just smashing windows for fun because everybody knew all it'd do is earn you a one way ticket to deep space

Straight-up this, without a hint of irony

A bunch of fucking grayshits were rampaging in medical while I was a chemist and I was like "Okay, fuck it, I'll make some chloral and EXILE them with a syringe gun"

But now chloral hydrate is a huge pain to make, especially in quantity, with a super narrow optimal pH, high purity requirements, and a minuscule output of 1u Chloral Hydrate per 5u of chems in.

But god forbid one of the assistants shoves you into a wall or another assistant and someone present knows the timing for the permanent chainstun, or they just mob you.

Reminder that a lot of the issues with reinforced windows are surprisingly a spriting issue. Plasma windows just look like ass so no mapper wants to reinforce high-security areas with them.

>back in my day people never ever ran around with a fireaxe just smashing windows for fun

People definitely did, and I remember Ikarrus adminPMing me about it once when I was doing it on the shuttle, which pissed me off because most admins wouldn't have made it into an OOC issue. I think it'd depend on the admins online whether you could crit somebody for breaking windows back then without getting in trouble.

>Plasma windows just look like ass so no mapper wants to reinforce high-security areas with them.

They look fine by themselves, maybe the issue is just that they clash with everything else? It just seems like a taboo that needs to be broken. I remember wanting to separate Xenobiology maint from Xenobiology on BoxStation using plasma glass and there being this arbitrary resistance in the comments on that PR because it wasn't what people were used to. Then awhile later I noticed plasma glass newly being used to separate the little space hole behind the toxins mixing chamber from maintenance on either Meta or Delta.

cacogen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:47 am >back in my day people never ever ran around with a fireaxe just smashing windows for fun

People definitely did, and I remember Ikarrus adminPMing me about it once when I was doing it on the shuttle, which pissed me off because most admins wouldn't have made it into an OOC issue. I think it'd depend on the admins online whether you could crit somebody for breaking windows back then without getting in trouble.

we are talking about different time periods.

That probably happened in 2013