Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

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Pandarsenic
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #635807

Bottom post of the previous page:

NamelessFairy wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:27 pm Future post
I was never able to quite make a custom vendor work as chef, but this manages to kill that idea even more thoroughly by making it unaffordable for me to even create my custom vendor as an income source.
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:16 am
Why It's Good For The Game
Players get more ability to interact with the economy ... Why is this good?
Players also have a baseline consensus on what values of credits are high and low because jobs have been given an equalized standard in regards to the cost of certain items. This already seems to exist but idc that much about the adjustment to credit counts on round start, etc.
Price fluctuations through inflation will now be more meaningful in situations where the economy becomes more relevant. Why is this good?
The system will still encourage you to play a job that's productive to the status of the station through lower paycheck jobs existing as well. Why is this good?
Gas exports are now reduced to the point that their value is appropriate for the first time... actually ever. Nice. This one is actually good, if the bugs are gone.
... without answering to satisfaction why the economy being a Big Deal is good or desirable - the positives of having a high-complexity economy are simply taken as a given.
Has anyone made a case that I missed of what's good about making people interact with the economy by force to counter all the examples of why it's bad so far?
Last edited by Pandarsenic on Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NamelessFairy » #635808

Original github comment with a lot of my opinions already covered:
► Show Spoiler
Genuinely really worried about what lathe tax will do for players with an interest in interacting with the games construction mechanics, a portion of our playerbase find enjoyment in re-decorated their workplace, building maint/space forts, lavaland colonies, byos, etc. Things like this become engineering/science exclusive endeavors, the most extreme example of this is a non-human assistant will take 2 paychecks to be able to build a light fixture and fit it with a lightbulb, if that player wanted to build anything bigger then it could take days. Engineers and scientists will likely still need to manage their credits really strictly if they want to work on any larger projects which will likely mean less using money as a roleplay prop (e.g. tips for other players) and less willingness to aid other players in tasks that involve using the lathe.
Another issue that I discovered recently is this turns ID theft into an effective round ender, if your ID is stolen then the thief can just withdraw your credits after every paycheck to prevent you from being able to use lathes what-so-ever for the entire duration of your round in the worst case. The only counterplay to this is to recover your potentially long-gone ID or steal another players ID and continue the cycle.
I could continue this post for hours listing all the concerns I have and others have had that I agree with since the list goes on and on. I cannot overstate how cataclysmic I think lathe tax could be for players that focus on expressing their creativity in sandbox projects, a group that I personally believe I fall into.

Warning, emotion driven signoff:
► Show Spoiler
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by enginseer-42 » #635820

Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:39 pm the real issue with the economy is that theres not enough ways to actually make money, and the few ways that do exist are tedious and unrewarding!

annoying for players. a nightmare for cargo
Eh. Thinking about it, with Custom Vendors you could probably come out mostly even, at least for common requests in med and sci. IE, it costs money to stock organs, well, you just stick robo organs into a custom vendor for 4 credits if somebody comes in needing organ replacement, they buy the organs, you put them in. If they come in mostly dead, you just buy stuff using their ID. If they don't have an ID, well then you can either work on the charity case on your own dime or just dump them in the morgue for being poor.

For sci-parts, whoever is running the front desk research can stock the vendor with stock parts and gear for 2+ credits apiece. You can either stock it ahead of time, or wait for a request and put the things they request into the vendor for them to come pick up.

Main issue is getting the price taggers and custom vendor refill. But you can get both from cargo. Or from a sci-built autolathe. I can see how it can function without everything crashing down inherently, even if it does end up being a barrier. Not really much of one. If I read right, you start with an equivalent of 5 paychecks and over the course of a round you would get 5-6 more, assuming a 30 minute round. Which at an average paycheck of 50 for most crew, ends up at 550 credits, or 225 uses of the lathe if you spend on nothing else and don't recoup losses.

I'm not sure how that would work for engineering, but I can see how it can work for med-sci.

Though you're right that stocking a custom vender is tedious.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by carshalash » #635844

Cable coils are 10 credits per cable. That means that light floor tiles will cost 50 credits per tile.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Stillplant » #635846

One problem I see is that charging people to do their job gets them to not do their job. Let's say we pumb the discount for intradepartment printing to 90%, from 80%. Then each part costs only one credit. In this case, printing 10 of each part costs 50 credits, which is a scientist's paycheck. On the other hand, an outsider to the department can print what they want for 10 credits each. Why should they be allowed to print at all? Same with vending machines. Why should a sec officer be charged for handcuffs, and why should an assistant be allowed to buy them at all?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by PSTMRTM » #635851

Honestly I don't understand the vision for Arconomy, I would like it if Arcane could explain what their vision is for the game economy.

The current game economy is used mostly as an RP prop/tool and for Cargo, there isn't really much of a reason to worry about and use money. The economy can be seen as a redundancy. As one individual has put it:
people are already cooperating for mutual benefit, there's no room for an economy. so, without a restructure of inter-department cooperation, an economy will always just be forced.
The economy is currently being forced onto the players, through a paywall that is the lathe tax. Its not going to be fun, it will kill the sandbox element and make people's jobs even hard.

I thought we could focus on Material Scarcity instead of targeting the lathe through Credits. I've talked on the TG discord about Material Scarcity and was essentially shrugged off due to how much of a "meme" it is. Then I realized what the actual issue is

The current economy is incomplete

The economy currently should have been only limited to cargo and the nice things you can buy from the vendors, and continued to be an RP tool and not a thing people had to rely on

OR

The economy actually be given purpose and make individuals have to pay for goods/services

If science had a custom vendor already in front of their department they could stock items with, would allow for the sale of items that could benefit everyone. Chef and Bartender could sell their food and drink instead of giving it away for free. Medical could sell medical items and chems so that people could self tend instead of having to put a lot of pressure onto the medical staff themselves. There is a lot of things we can implement so that people wouldn't have to rely on themselves to make the item. Hell, if science sold stuff, people wouldn't constantly be breaking in to make stuff themselves. There is so much potential in reworking the current economy, but the lathe tax is just trying to force an incomplete/suboptimal economy on the players

TLDR:

Incentivize players to capitalize on the services they provide if you want an economy

OR

Let players continue to use the current economy as a roleplay tool
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #635852

I sat in on the VC discussion about Arconomy last night (between arcane, goof, blase and potato, so coders of substance) and listened intently, ill get a better recap later today logging on and update my post if nessecary with a firsthand impression but basically the entire fixture of the economy is to paraphrase "dunk on" assistants who exist outside the scope of economy as the poorest on the station and do something about the richest (scientists/cargo/command) who have too much of it. There was acknowledgement about the playercounts that do play assistant but overall in a 'vision' that was a feature that could be sidestepped in favor of trying to feature-code even more stopgaps for each department.

Not the most useful or sustainable way of generating income i might add if they aren't implemented soon, or adding them too early could backdate a effective attempt at arc-conomy too far into the future by exaggerating the money everywhere problem temporarily. Overall It should be rule 11 violated as bigotry, with complete sincerity for not being a in-universe example but as a meta-example until it is more fair to assistants as prisoners have a fairer financing methods (dig ores or print license plates, primary resource based gathering and manufacturing jobs).
Nobody has a issue with the rest of the PR apparently but the lathe tax itself, which seems to suggest even with the "misinformation" going around that numerous administrators who the community usually ask first had no idea or thought this PR was a joke were equally in the dark, in maybe the PR is incomprehensible with the graphs, so people tunnel vision onto the lathe-tax but that's just my theory honestly. I couldnt tell you anything else about the PR because i was so incensed about the lathe tax and i tried reading it 3 times in entirety.

Spoiler:
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635854

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:57 am I sat in on the VC discussion about Arconomy last night (between arcane, goof, blase and potato, so coders of substance) and listened intently, ill get a better recap later today logging on and update my post if nessecary with a firsthand impression but basically the entire fixture of the economy is to paraphrase "dunk on" assistants who exist outside the scope of economy as the poorest on the station and do something about the richest (scientists/cargo/command) who have too much of it. There was acknowledgement about the playercounts that do play assistant but overall in a 'vision' that was a feature that could be sidestepped in favor of trying to feature-code even more stopgaps for each department.
Brother that was goof, part of what arcane's been trying to do is reduce the debt hell assistants got put into by that initial pr however many years ago. He said so in that conversation.
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:57 am Not the most useful or sustainable way of generating income i might add if they aren't implemented soon, or adding them too early could backdate a effective attempt at arc-conomy too far into the future by exaggerating the money everywhere problem temporarily. Overall It should be rule 11 violated as bigotry, with complete sincerity for not being a in-universe example but as a meta-example until it is more fair to assistants as prisoners have a fairer financing methods (dig ores or print license plates, primary resource based gathering and manufacturing jobs).
I'm sorry I just can't parse this at all, feels like you're operating under the misconception that econ as it now exists is built to bone assistants.
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:57 am Nobody has a issue with the rest of the PR apparently but the lathe tax itself, which seems to suggest even with the "misinformation" going around that numerous administrators who the community usually ask first had no idea or thought this PR was a joke were equally in the dark, in maybe the PR is incomprehensible with the graphs, so people tunnel vision onto the lathe-tax but that's just my theory honestly. I couldnt tell you anything else about the PR because i was so incensed about the lathe tax and i tried reading it 3 times in entirety.
The little things often stick out to people, especially when they become the focus of a large amount of attention. The bulk of that pr is reimplementing paychecks, and attempting to rebalance existing purchases around the timed release that provides. It's just lathe tax is a really clear idea, and didn't really have a why argued for it, so now every tom dick and harry is having a meltdown over it. Admins included.

Edit:
I would respond to more comments, but doubleposting is a criminal offense in my district. Someone please post below me so I can be free
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #635858

PSTMRTM wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am If science had a custom vendor already in front of their department they could stock items with, would allow for the sale of items that could benefit everyone. Chef and Bartender could sell their food and drink instead of giving it away for free. Medical could sell medical items and chems so that people could self tend instead of having to put a lot of pressure onto the medical staff themselves. There is a lot of things we can implement so that people wouldn't have to rely on themselves to make the item. Hell, if science sold stuff, people wouldn't constantly be breaking in to make stuff themselves. There is so much potential in reworking the current economy, but the lathe tax is just trying to force an incomplete/suboptimal economy on the players
You can make these vendors already. People just don't because they're a little weirdly documented and they need parts/boards that most people don't know where to find or how to make (if they even know they exist at all). For chef (from my personal experience) you also can't really make anything good enough to get people to actually pay for it it because chef food is good but not that good.
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:57 am Nobody has a issue with the rest of the PR apparently but the lathe tax itself, which seems to suggest even with the "misinformation" going around that numerous administrators who the community usually ask first had no idea or thought this PR was a joke were equally in the dark, in maybe the PR is incomprehensible with the graphs, so people tunnel vision onto the lathe-tax but that's just my theory honestly. I couldnt tell you anything else about the PR because i was so incensed about the lathe tax and i tried reading it 3 times in entirety.
Gas fix is good. Some of the rest seems like it might be good? But I also can't easily visualize how most of the system looks compared to now (e.g. how much money Assistant vs. Security Officer vs. Head of Personnel will find in their account at different points in a round after this PR vs before it) whereas I can see very clearly what happens when losing your ID means you can't buy a crowbar from a vendor OR lathe one.
TheFinalPotato wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:02 am Edit:
I would respond to more comments, but doubleposting is a criminal offense in my district. Someone please post below me so I can be free
You're free as long as you respond to at least one of mine so I feel validated
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #635878

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:29 am You can make these vendors already. People just don't because they're a little weirdly documented and they need parts/boards that most people don't know where to find or how to make (if they even know they exist at all). For chef (from my personal experience) you also can't really make anything good enough to get people to actually pay for it it because chef food is good but not that good.
You know this reminds me that I believe currently custom vendors are bugged. Items placed inside the vendor are free even if you apply a price tag to the item. I should make a report once I've tested that this is still true on live.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by enginseer-42 » #635888

NecromancerAnne wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:20 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:29 am You can make these vendors already. People just don't because they're a little weirdly documented and they need parts/boards that most people don't know where to find or how to make (if they even know they exist at all). For chef (from my personal experience) you also can't really make anything good enough to get people to actually pay for it it because chef food is good but not that good.
You know this reminds me that I believe currently custom vendors are bugged. Items placed inside the vendor are free even if you apply a price tag to the item. I should make a report once I've tested that this is still true on live.
They appear free to the owner because the owner can freely remove them. Try having someone else use it it shows the price.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #635892

enginseer-42 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:02 pm
NecromancerAnne wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:20 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:29 am You can make these vendors already. People just don't because they're a little weirdly documented and they need parts/boards that most people don't know where to find or how to make (if they even know they exist at all). For chef (from my personal experience) you also can't really make anything good enough to get people to actually pay for it it because chef food is good but not that good.
You know this reminds me that I believe currently custom vendors are bugged. Items placed inside the vendor are free even if you apply a price tag to the item. I should make a report once I've tested that this is still true on live.
They appear free to the owner because the owner can freely remove them. Try having someone else use it it shows the price.
Oh good. Not very intuitive but good.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Sexmaster » #635909

TheFinalPotato wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:02 am The little things often stick out to people, especially when they become the focus of a large amount of attention. The bulk of that pr is reimplementing paychecks, and attempting to rebalance existing purchases around the timed release that provides. It's just lathe tax is a really clear idea, and didn't really have a why argued for it, so now every tom dick and harry is having a meltdown over it. Admins included.
If no one can argue in favour of it, and it's being shit on so hard, why keep it in as a "feature"? The other re-balances and re-implementation of paycheques seems fine, but taxing people for printing shit that has been gained on station, both material and power wise to get the thing should not be taxed. Why is a megacorporation trying to slow down their productivity when it never hurt the bottom line in the first place?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Jin » #635917

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! OUR FOREFATHERS FOUGHT TO PREVENT TG CODERS FROM PUTTING THIS IN THE GAME!!!

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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by CDranzer » #635960

I'm still not sure what the purpose of economy is meant to be. I mean that in the most literal sense. It feels like somebody just woke up one day and was like "Hey, economies are cool! Let's do us an economy" and that was the end of the idea, completely oblivious to the fact that economies are made interesting by competing self-interests, whereas SS13 is largely about a cohesive collective aspiring to work together towards a common goal. Medics heal, engies repair, chefs cook, botanists grow, scientists research, security officers beat the clown in the face with a bloody stun baton, not because they are incentivized, but because that's the point of their existence within the game.

I believe the PR will almost certainly get merged, not because it provides any kind of positive value whatsoever, but simply because once the core issues are ironed out, it'll barely have any impact at all. Then later in the year once the coders have finally managed to reach the same conclusion that everybody else did several months prior, the system will get overhauled or removed and we'll see how that goes.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by cacogen » #635964

Separate-Worker9760 · 2 days ago · 20 upvotes wrote:
bebop_cola_good · 3 days ago · 83 upvotes wrote:This reads like a PR from someone who doesn't actually play on tg.

It's shitty enough to lose your ID to mugging, fire burning off your suit, etc but at the very least while you were waiting for HoP to stop hoarding insuls in maint you could at least print some new tools so you could keep doing your job. Now you're just fucked or begging your department for loose change while shitsec mows you down for not having an ID
"This reads like a PR from someone who doesn't actually play on tg."

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.
Was he wrong? Particularly about liking Sealab.

Also I feel kind of bad for Arcane because I don't think this was done with any malice or spite for the playerbase, and he doesn't seem like the type to react to this whirlwind of negative feedback he's unwittingly unleashed with the characteristic /tg/station coder arrogance either.

He just really wants to get the economy to be a worthwhile part of the game, and I sympathise with that. It would be great if money actually had leverage behind it, so that it could be used to incentivise other players to do what you want.

Not only would it be fun to be able to pay somebody to do your bidding, and for them to actually be motivated to go along with it, it would also drive roleplay by motivating players to interact with each other for the sake of these transactions.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Arcanemusic » #635996

Howdy Everyone.

I'm glad to see that everyone's been made slightly more lively by my code, or sorry that you've lost so much sleep over a few lines of code. In that respect I'd like to start off by saying that I try to read as much of everyone's feedback as I can, and I take as much of it as I can manage to heart to make sure that the projects I work on are things that people enjoy and make the game more interesting.

If I was trying to kill /tg/station, I'd probably have gotten gitbanned by now, anyway.

Also you're going to have to do some reading. I don't apologize.

So, let me try and clear the air about the content of the current economy PR that I wrote, and break it down as best as I mechanically can, while communicating intent, and I'll follow it up with some Frequently Screamed Questions that I've heard people discuss and my thoughts/answers to the subjects.

What is the Purpose of the Cash Economy in SS13?
For the purposes of this discussion, an economy is basically a controls problem. It assumes that resources go into a system actively, and that resources leave that system periodically. In practical terms most of these systems become easier to work with when you have less inputs, and less outputs, because you can account for where more resources wind up and how to handle that. The Power Economy is all the power generated by the Engine/Turbine/Solars/Hampsters on Wheels less the power used by the station and the crew. The material economy is all the resources round start on the station and mined by cargo minus how often those resources get expended/used up/thrown away. Pretty much anything can be described as an economy, and if you look back at any of those examples you'll see that we've fucked up just about every single one of those from a balance perspective, since we have too many materials, chronically produce too much power if it's been set up at all, and in the original version of the cash economy crewmates had obscene amounts of cash to the point that you could buy multiple bikes in a single round. Hell, when we added the cash economy, we had a LITERAL money tree.

It grew money. I digress.

The cash economy was rather arbitrarily designed the first time around, heavily based around the cargo department's cargo points, which was similarly a mess in 2016, and even then it wasn't designed to be fair or to have any kind of interaction with the rest of the station outside of buying cans of soda every once in awhile. Since about 2018 I've been whittling away economy to try to make it a system that players not only engage with but have to make choices about in a single given round. The vison here is that economy would be a system that emphasizes a player's choices throughout the round, either periodically throughout with smaller purchases or inter-player interactions, and for major mid to late-game purchases of supplies and useful or unique items. You could be the type of player that just uses economy for buying candy bars to satiate hunger when you're away from service, or you could be the type of player that hordes money away to get those 1200 credit insulated gloves. In that respect, economy is integrated into several other systems in the game, but serves more as a booster than it is a full on replacement in any category. You can break into the armory to get a collection of weapons, or craft ghetto weaponry, but economy give you a personal supply of cash to invest into buying cargo weaponry instead. Want to build the nicest shuttle known to man? You could use credits to buy nicer furniture or hire crew to help you make it look good, and those credits can go to other crew's personal projects, and so on.

It was not originally designed as a primary system and without tearing out literally everything it is hard to implement it as such, so that's never been my intent. It is a supplementary resource that crew can use to solve problems on the station, and occasionally to create problems when nobody has any of it.

What changes were included in PR#65795?
Link to the PR. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65795
A good majority of it is covered in the PR body but I'm being through here so that I don't have to do this again.
Price Normalization
For all items in vendors, as well as goodie items in cargo, I normalized the values of nearly every price in the game. In-game, all items that can be purchased with credits are done so using something called Defines. Basically it's like code-wide variables that make it easier to copy-paste certain information across the code. In past work of mine I made it so that every job in the game had the prices of the items that they buy written in terms of these defines, with each define described in terms of each paycheck in the game. So, if I as a bartender want to buy a bottle of champagne, I know that it's worth 2 of my paychecks within the code, making it easier to assign new costs to new items by scaling it to when and where in a round it's going to be available. As a result, it became clear to me that this tied in with a very specific issue with economy that has always existed. Most crew on the station winds up in just about 2 mindsets: Players who have so much money that they could ever realistically run out based on what they need for that shift (Heads of staff, high pay-grade jobs), and players who have so little money to afford anything on-station, and completely disregard anything to do with economy considering how much work they'd need to do to get "caught up".

The largest, and most sweeping change whether you believe it or not is that I have replaced pay-grades with a much smaller and closer packed pay-grade system to prevent that from happening and put players on level footing, as well as drastically decrease the difficulty in making decisions about economy integrated choices. Most crew have had their paygrades shifted to the same levels, so instead of there being 7 different paygrades between 25 credits and 200 credits each, there are 3 paygrades each between 25 credits and 100 credits, with the low-paygrade covering just high-population jobs that don't cater well to the economy (25 credit tier), the crew-paygrade tier for most jobs previously between assistant and security (50 credits tier), and command-tier for heads of staff (100 credit tier). Intended benefits of this would mean that you create more common ground about the singular value of credits within the round. Now every job looks at something like 50 credits the same way, as job items are all scaled the same way, and crew are going to have roughly the same money to begin with. This also means that job changes aren't going to put you drastically far behind someone who started in that job initially. If you changed from a botanist to a security officer, for example you previously would have several hundreds of credits behind the job your changing into, BEFORE you got supplied with resources that you would need to purchase anyway. If nothing else, I'd like to get this change into the game with this PR.

Briefcase of Cash Change
The briefcase of cash can be used aggressively to destroy the economy as it stands, and has literally not been changed since it was added in 2012. It costs 1 TC, It gives the player 5000 credits, and can be purchased an unlimited number of times. Before the shift to progression traitors, you could drop all your TC and get a grand total of 100k credits at shift start. Now, with progression traitors, you can make something like 25k credits per paycheck if you're efficient and able to complete objectives without being caught out too quickly. With the price of everything on station dropping as a result of these changes, even with very, VERY few of these total you can effectively buy everything on station, as well as just about everything worth buying as a traitor with cash (Medkits, Guns, Plasma Tanks, maybe an ATV). A common misconception that people have been throwing at me is that the briefcase of cash is intended to be a powerful item, to which I have to completely shut that down and disagree. It was added originally to the pointless fun category of traitor items over 10 years ago before the economy even existed. In an ass backwards way, it's been one of the few consistent things about economy before it even existed, getting overlooked when crates were dropped from 500 credits to 200 credits each (Which resulted in a major rebalance of all existing prices the first time), when passive income was removed initially, all of these changes were made with this getting largely looked over and I thought it was time that we decreased the power level of a literal meme item that make the balancing of everything else a joke.
And yes, I've been told about the mining points -> cash conversion. I didn't make a change to that yet because I have no fucking clue how many points miners get nowadays because I don't play very much miner, and so I didn't attempt to make a change to that before I can make an educated decision.

Passive Income
This is the part of the change that predicated the addition of the lathe tax. Sit tight.
So, passive income is stupid. But, it solves a very real problem from a design standpoint that economy has run into since my original PR, being that money lost it's correlation to time, in a game heavily based around the lengths of rounds. By having passive income added back, you get an idea of how much time something is worth every time you make a purchase. If you're 100 credits off from buying something round start, assuming you're playing without any inter-player interaction, you can expect to have enough credits for that thing in 10 minutes. This is a conclusion that I came to through one of the few discussions with maintainers I have ever managed to eek out in the past few months, because of discussions with maintainers. But I still hold that my original assessment was correct, that if players keep making money over time, while having literally zero expenses and not enough things worth buying between all the vendors on station, they will end up making colossal amounts of money and at a certain point exchanging money will become useless. If everyone on station has 1000 credits and full gamer gear, when the only things left to buy are 15 credit candy bars and the occasional cable coil from a tool vendor, than they won't have any attachment to the system and there's no real consequences attached to the system. If you don't have money, you don't buy things. You don't need to buy things. So what's the fucking point?

So I mused on this for a few months from about December to mid February. I decided to turn the situation into a control problem, as I showed on the original Hack.md.
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So, taking a few liberties on the cost of individual items as well as knowing that certain items were going to vary wildly in cost, and that players spending couldn't be easily handled every round, I started by making a simulation in MATLAB to model how much players were going to be making on average every round, that could be adjusted for the now 3 different paygrade levels, combined with the benefits of bounties and potential secondary income flows like tourist bots. Using the codebase model average of 90 minute expected rounds, and a player count of about 60, here's roughly what this looks like:
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This models a total of 1000 simulated rounds of player spending, assuming they're making average crew level income, that only 5% of all players do a single bounty, and not accounting for secondary income, which can be enabled. Adjusting and improving this model is what made me come to the conclusion that passive income was going to be simply far, FAR too high to leave in without some kind of mechanical stopgap to prevent players from using this system without some kind of dampening. We want this system to be underdamped, but not to the point where the only costs we can add to the system are so little that they player doesn't wind up having to make choices. After all, it's a game-wide player resource, and if you're not having to make choices then it's not a mechanic.
For those who'd like to check my work, I can upload my MATLAB file somewhere for the income simulation if anyone would like.

The Lathe Tax.
If you just scrolled down here without reading the other sections of this post, go back, read it. It'll be obvious you skipped to this part.

A minor but persistent cost into the new passive income system was going to be required to keep the system in check, and I have had a lot of time to consider different avenues to go about something like this. I'd been collecting log data from rounds for economy testing every few months since about mid 2020(Here), and tweaking that logging when necessary as I need new information. Just adding new things to buy with credits as well is something I'd been doing since I started seriously coding in about 2019. But nearly everything added to the game is added to the techweb, or the lathe. You can't charge people for things that you can get for free. Why would you buy a wrench from a vendor if you can break into cargo for 3 seconds, print a wrench for a negligible amount of metal, and then never need a new wrench again?

Before I went ahead with this I looked into a downstream PR that I'd known about for quite some time now that did something similar: Credit to Mudzbe. I believe it's also been tried a few times on a few other downstreams, too, but I cannot find those PRs as quickly. The meat of it is that several other servers have tried to implement a basic cost to offset passive income to the lathe (Remember, most of our downstreams still have passive income). On one of these PRs they similarly also scaled the credit cost of printing things to it's material cost. I considered doing so as well, but reconsidered after remembering that material cost on most items is 100% redundant. If a printing cost was scaled to the amount of materials used, a wrench would probably cost you 1 credit, and a circular saw would cost you about 67 credits, if not more. This would be fine for preventing assistants from breaking into cargo and printing items form their lathe, but you have to recall that circular saws are still job critical items for the medical department. Having to work around and with material balance of EVERY SINGLE MATERIAL ITEM is not only tedious, but untenable with the amount of printable items being added to the game every day. Besides, I personally have already tried and failed to work around the batshit insanity that materials and their potential value have already. It's not an avenue worth going down without a considerable more work to the material economy.

So what I settled on was a flat, consistent rate for printing items from lathes. 10 credits maximum, 2 credits if printing something from your own lathe. The discount was implemented after the consideration that building projects were going to be too expensive to be able to do in a regular length round, and at 10 credits I could certainly agree. I also quickly tried implementing inflation on printing numbers but Wow holy shit that was awful. This means that people printing items for use on-station is still perfectly available, but unless you are printing hundreds of items from a different departments lathe, or about 500 items from your own lathe, you will still have a rather substantial amount of credits left over. And besides, if you are in a situation where you're printing items in critical excess like that, then there are additional ways to make credits to do so, or you can... do things for other players that they will pay you for. See, this whole system breaks down when you realize that SS13 is still a multiplayer game, and if you want more money you can always work together with other players if it's overwhelming to do singlehandedly. The codebase doesn't support arcade-style gameplay. Most players aren't going and printing more than 10 items in a given round, and more often then not it's from their own lathes if it's necessary.

I want to break this out into an FAQ below because I've noticed a lot of similar comments and some of them I've already touched on so that I can hit as many of them as possible, but I'll do that in a separate post so that I can get this information out as fast as possible.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by cacogen » #636005

I think the longstanding problems with the system are that there aren't enough ways to make money (if you don't like bounties like I don't, and you're not a cargo tech, then what else can you do to efficiently make money?) and aren't enough things to spend it on. Cargo needs items that players actually desire at all price points, to encourage both spending and saving. Then money will have value and with it leverage.

In real life, money has value because we know all the amazing things we can spend it on if we have enough of it. We don't know what we can spend it on in-game (in-game advertising, e.g. more posters, would unironically help here) and the stuff we can spend it on at the moment isn't very motivating. Literally add one ~150k plasma rifle available through cargo each round. See if people don't value money more then.

If you aren't willing to back money with actual good items knowing you may then have to tweak the pricing to make sure the items aren't purchased too frequently or infrequently then you aren't willing to actually have a strong economy.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Helios » #636009

Being able to produce items, and then turn them in for cash would be useful.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NamelessFairy » #636012

Arcane, your FAQ has still not covered one of the most pressing issues that myself and many others have brought up, its severely detrimental impact on construction and sandbox gameplay. Almost every imaginal construction project becomes near impossible in a reasonable round. I've already used the non-human assistant building a lightbulb+frame once every 10 minutes example enough times so I'll give another.
A bartender wants to include a disco floor in their bar, 5x5 tiles seems like a reasonable size for this and disco's are a common construction project at present for the bar/abandoned bar. this is 25 tiles, 125 cable coil, each priced at 10 credits totaling 1250 credits. This is a total of 25 paychecks for a human or 34 paychecks for a non-human, This is 2 hours or 2 hours and 40 minutes respectively. This is the type of stuff I think about when I voice concern about sandbox projects even being possible, and before you say that you should ask an engineer to print them for you, thats 25 minutes for a human or 35 for a nonhuman, even the CE will need 15 minutes to put together a 5x5 grid of light tiles. A project like this is miniscule in the grade scheme of things, but would require major collaboration or campbell length rounds to achieve alongside participating in regular job activities to actually complete. Now do we even need to begin to imagine what it'll take to build new functional rooms? Maybe we want to consider the more extreme projects that come up every once and again like rebuilding the drone station or lavaland colonies, where you'll need to install hundreds of underfloor cabling ontop of tons of machines apcs, air alarms and everything else. Lathe tax and sandbox construction as they stand now are incompatible, and I guarantee you more people care about this games sandbox then they do thinking about how they want to spend their paycheck.
To end this post off I'll state, I genuinely respect the amount of effort your putting into this and while listening to you in VC I can clearly tell your devoting a ton of passion into this. But the unfortunate situation we find ourselves in is myself and many others are equally passionate about something this PR threatens to snuff out, the ability to engage in sandbox construction projects, so regardless of how this PR turns out some people are going to be crushed.

EDIT NOTE: LIGHT FLOOR TILE EXAMPLE HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO BE INNACURATE IF USING THE ENGINEERING LATHE SINCE IT PRINTS STACKS OF CABLE COIL RATHER THAN INDIVIDUAL UNITS LIKE THE AUTOLATHE, REST STILL STANDS
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Blase » #636013

NamelessFairy wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:47 pm snip
This entire post reads as if it is straight out of a textbook on fearmongering over change. Your over reliance on hypotheticals is my main issue with your post. You throw out long periods like "2 hours" and large numbers like "25 paychecks". It would only cost an engineer 300 credits to make this thing. You assume no one has additional sources of income, and that passive income alone is all people have access to. We don't design for Campbell length rounds. It has previously been stated that TG runs over an hour, but not 16 as is often seen on Campbell. Your use of edge cases to justify your position is not particularly convincing either. Perhaps Lavaland colony construction projects are not something we should design for either. You have made a false dichotomy of "repair breaches" or "lathe tax", and I believe you are either severely misinformed or your emotions are running high.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NamelessFairy » #636017

Blase wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:23 pm snip
My reliance on hypotheticals is because major construction projects take incredible amounts of time, planning, teamwork and effort, something that even if I could get together on such short notice would be pointless since the TM is only on Manuel which has stay in your lane rules which I personally think I'd be straying from if I had to wear the multiple hats it takes to pull off major construction. My ideas of construction are also probably outdated because my last megaprojects were on the linux-test-server and I didn't participate in the more recent golden age of campbell construction. I have however spoken to a lot of people about this change though who also participate in major construction and I can guarantee I'm not the only person who feels the same way as me regarding this, I'm just too vocal about this portion of the community to keep my complaints in private chats. As for emotions running high your correct, I've got 2000 hours in this game and countless more committed to the community as an admin and head admin, one of my core passions for this game is under attack and of course I'm going to be emotional about it, its hard to not be afraid and potentially heartbroken when seeing the thing that you devoted years to a button press away from not existing anymore.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #636022

NamelessFairy wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:47 pm Arcane, your FAQ has still not covered...
Brother I don't think he's done his faq yet, that was just a discussion of the changes and intent.

Also yeah per item in stack cost is maybe not a great idea, god I hate stacks.
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:25 pm
Why It's Good For The Game
Players get more ability to interact with the economy ... Why is this good?
Players also have a baseline consensus on what values of credits are high and low because jobs have been given an equalized standard in regards to the cost of certain items. This already seems to exist but idc that much about the adjustment to credit counts on round start, etc.
Price fluctuations through inflation will now be more meaningful in situations where the economy becomes more relevant. Why is this good?
The system will still encourage you to play a job that's productive to the status of the station through lower paycheck jobs existing as well. Why is this good?
Gas exports are now reduced to the point that their value is appropriate for the first time... actually ever. Nice. This one is actually good, if the bugs are gone.
Has anyone made a case that I missed of what's good about making people interact with the economy by force to counter all the examples of why it's bad so far?
Forced interaction through a passive cost already exists, it's partly how botany currently functions. I think it's fun, and I like having a real reason to ask for payment, outside of just rp. Makes me happy.
It is, arcane did some work on that in the past, he's tightening it up, see above towerpost.
IDK honestly, inflation is a bit weird to me.
This mostly applies to Heads of staff, and partly assistants. I think it's an attempt to solve the none plays head problem we have (also assistant mains, but eh), which is really an issue of policy caused by weak willed admi-
Yeah it's based. It's not really a matter of bugs, it's just atmos coders have no fucking sense of scale so everything's worth 2 billion credits.

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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Redtrogdor » #636023

registered this account so I could offer my own perspective (complete with funny colors to drive certain concepts home) :honk: :honkman: :honk:

assertion: SS13 is a game about telling a fun and engaging story
thus: game mechanics should serve the sake of the story and having fun with it
by: encouraging player interaction (because: game mechanics can't generate a story, dumb dumb)
through: antagonists/objective conflict, funny ideas/gimmicks, interdepartmental relations (upgrades, tool acquisition, material acquisition), roleplay jobs (bartender)

so what about arconomy?
pros:
  • having extradepartmental players be charged more for things discourages lone-wolf gameplay, encourages player interaction and cooperation, can potentially spark conflict
  • having money be universally desirable (rather than just for the occasional vending machine) is the entire point of money and can drive conflict/story
cons:
  • charging intradepartmental players for job necessities is just plain stupid and slows down story and shuts down player interaction because "I won't/can't pay for X"
  • feels ultimately quite forced because although money is now desirable, it's desirable for the wrong reasons: money should be exchanged for goods and services between players (look mom, player interaction) rather than as a tax. feels like a dumb NT policy rather than a natural consequence of wants and needs
  • fails to provide any engaging money-making alternatives to bounties (which the OP disparaged) besides petty mugging (which could actually be a good thing) or (the much worse option) waiting around for a paycheck instead of actively earning money and doing stuff to drive the story
tl;dr: arconomy tries to make money valuable by getting in the way of gameplay rather than making it a tool for commerce (you know, the entire goddamn point of money) which results in player interaction and storytelling

whenever you make a PR, ask a question: how does this serve the story?
Last edited by Redtrogdor on Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #636024

NamelessFairy wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:47 pm Arcane, your FAQ has still not covered one of the most pressing issues that myself and many others have brought up, its severely detrimental impact on construction and sandbox gameplay. Almost every imaginal construction project becomes near impossible in a reasonable round.
It has actually addressed this; it just gave an answer you (and I) don't like:
Arcanemusic wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:00 pmAnd besides, if you are in a situation where you're printing items in critical excess like that, then there are additional ways to make credits to do so, or you can... do things for other players that they will pay you for. See, this whole system breaks down when you realize that SS13 is still a multiplayer game, and if you want more money you can always work together with other players if it's overwhelming to do singlehandedly.
These projects are now impractical or impossible to do alone. Solo construction projects are gone.
Edit note: Some, like restoring the old station, were already impractical due to scale. But all significant construction projects are now monetarily impossible.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by CDranzer » #636047

Arcanemusic wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:00 pmsnibbedy snab
Right, so. You're clearly not a complete moron. Your attempts to balance the economy are well thought out, which should be obvious to anybody who took the time to read your post from top to bottom.

Economies are interesting, but generally, we don't choose to have them. They manifest naturally any time resource scarcity intersects with freedom of exchange. Trying to forcefully introduce an economy into a design simply because it would be interesting is a recipe for disaster. It must arise naturally from the circumstances of the system, and even then it requires careful consideration. Freedom of exchange is implicit within the design of SS13, so the question then becomes, what are you trying to make scarce, and far more importantly, why?

You alluded to it yourself, and it's a common theme I've seen before - It's essentially about extending round duration. There's a desire to reduce the speed at which the game progresses. This has manifested itself in innumerable ways over the last couple of years, and this is just the latest iteration. Every time a weapon gets nerfed, a system gets made more complex, a new constraint on progression is introduced, it's all basically to the same end of making rounds longer. The motivation for making rounds longer is simple enough - longer rounds are more fun.

Longer rounds are not more fun. Longer rounds are longer.

SS13 is a game about the balance of chaos and order. There is a system of order in the form of a space station, its crew are running around doing trivial maintenance and exploring the game's mechanics, and then along comes Johnny Greytide to literally and figuratively throw a wrench into the mix. Disruption, destruction, death, disorder, disarray. The quality of the station and its crew degrades, the shuttle is called as an emergency escape, and the round ends. To counter the forces of chaos, there are forces of order. Engineers repair the station, Doctors heal the crew, Security neutralizes the antagonists. Mostly, the crew is on the side of order, but not completely. The clown is a force of chaos. Science and mining are forces of chaos. But it's a careful balance, and when it goes to shit, it's usually pretty easy to see.

An excess of chaos is something most of us who've been playing for more than a couple of years are familiar with - it's the DESword traitor slaughtering the entire crew. It's a singuloose shuttle call every 30 minutes. It's the head Rev walking into a locker or the Wizard blowing his face open on the supermatter 60 seconds into the shift. An excess of order is the lowpop greenshift lasing four hours. It's an emergency shuttle call with the words "It's time to go home". It's people going SSD because there's nothing left to do now that they've accomplished whatever autism project they were aspiring to. It's sitting in the bar waiting for something interesting to happen. Everybody wants to kill the clown, but nobody wants the clown to be dead. The clown is necessary. The clown is chaos. The clown is interesting.

Longer rounds are not more fun. Longer rounds are longer.

All of my best rounds have been long rounds with a lot of chaos. They have been rounds that skirt that line, where everybody's doing their best to keep things held together, but there's shit hitting the fan constantly. Somehow, against all odds, it keeps going for an hour, maybe more. When it finally ends, those are memories. The current attempt to forcibly extend the length of the round by inhibiting chaos does not result in 1-hour thrill rides every shift, it results in turning 30 minutes of chaos into 2 hours of dull plodding progression. Anybody who has ever expressed the explicit desire to extend the length of rounds has failed to understand the fundamental nature of SS13. My past self is among these people.

The reason this is relevant to you, Arcane, is because the economy serves no useful purpose. It's a nightmare to balance, but even if you manage to balance it out gracefully, it will achieve nothing of use. People will have slower, more tedious, less interesting shifts. Designing these economic systems is unironically a waste of your time. You'll probably eventually achieve your goal, but it won't be a goal worth achieving.

But hey, check out those round-length stats!
Last edited by CDranzer on Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #636049

CDranzers post was so based I want him to force feed it to the maintainers until they choke on it

Edit: But I just realized an issue...what if maintainers dont want fun. What if they just like complexity for complexity's sake...
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #636083

The internal maintainer vote is complete.

he results of the vote are done - https://app.rankedvote.co/elections/182 ... 23/results

There was a clear overall preference for an economy to exist, but not to affect the costs of doing business for staff

Economy exists, individual items purchased by staff costs money, but items from their dept autolathe, dept cargo gear they are authorised to buy etc, are all free "paid by NT"

Below is a proposed path forward for the lathe tax part of the Arconomy changes:

On that basis, I think if we accept the autolathe/protolathe tax, it should only apply when users are printing things that are not related to their dept.

Ideally, I think tying this to accesses gives the best outcome, as this encourages people to get more accesses, or illicitly obtain cards from other departments to avoid the tax.

This also encourages staff to cooperate on projects so they can print items out for the relevant depts without incurring a monetary tax.


this is subject to maintainer discussion as we speak.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #636085

Long round... fun round? no, long round is a long round. CD's logic is infallible that the two aren't intrinsically linked at base value, yes. I wouldn't sit through greenshift Manuel the entire shift strapped to a chair grinning like a lunatic, id find someone to talk to and something to do to but besides that it has nothing to do with the state of the code, especially around short economic transactions.

Most admins play majhong or something while in-round.
Off Topic
Sorry oranges i honest to god didn't see your post come up in the updated-post feed, no intentional gatecrashing on my part.

Spoiler:
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Yulice » #636091

oranges wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:28 pm The internal maintainer vote is complete.

he results of the vote are done - https://app.rankedvote.co/elections/182 ... 23/results

There was a clear overall preference for an economy to exist, but not to affect the costs of doing business for staff

Economy exists, individual items purchased by staff costs money, but items from their dept autolathe, dept cargo gear they are authorised to buy etc, are all free "paid by NT"

Below is a proposed path forward for the lathe tax part of the Arconomy changes:

On that basis, I think if we accept the autolathe/protolathe tax, it should only apply when users are printing things that are not related to their dept.

Ideally, I think tying this to accesses gives the best outcome, as this encourages people to get more accesses, or illicitly obtain cards from other departments to avoid the tax.

This also encourages staff to cooperate on projects so they can print items out for the relevant depts without incurring a monetary tax.


this is subject to maintainer discussion as we speak.
Wouldn't this more encourage people rolling to get the most "preferential" job for the lathe, IE Engineering/Science, and then just... fucking off and not doing that job? How would this affect autolathes in particular, since nearly every department can build one and more savvy players can load designs into them? Will circuit printers be subject to the same tax? How will this solve the problem of the tax itself only being a solution to paychecks being added, and the fact that there's still nearly nothing to purchase that players would want anyhow?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #636092

Yulice wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 pm Wouldn't this more encourage people rolling to get the most "preferential" job for the lathe, IE Engineering/Science, and then just... fucking off and not doing that job?

admin issue
Yulice wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 pm How would this affect autolathes in particular, since nearly every department can build one and more savvy players can load designs into them?

it's based on the category of the items, not the lathes
Yulice wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 pmWill circuit printers be subject to the same tax?
depends on if arcane was including them in the tax
Yulice wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 pm How will this solve the problem of the tax itself only being a solution to paychecks being added,
That isn't a problem
Yulice wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 pm the fact that there's still nearly nothing to purchase that players would want anyhow?
has nothing to do with the implementation of a tax
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Yulice » #636095

New point that was brought to my attention. How will this deal with antagonists and such who are humanoids but won't have a station ID. Things like Nuclear Operatives, Wizards, Space Ninjas, Pirates, and to a lesser extent Fugitives and Bounty Hunters. And things like Xenobio golems, I suppose.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #636097

Yulice wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:04 am New point that was brought to my attention. How will this deal with antagonists and such who are humanoids but won't have a station ID. Things like Nuclear Operatives, Wizards, Space Ninjas, Pirates, and to a lesser extent Fugitives and Bounty Hunters. And things like Xenobio golems, I suppose.
They either gotta steal an id. Or spawn with a convenient "Cost Breaker" item. Whether that'd be an id with a bank account, bankrolled by their organization, An item that steals from the machine like a coin attached to a piece of string, or just an eventual adding of alternate ways to get items out of the machine that circumvent economy at a great cost. Like tipping over the vending machine.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #636098

Yulice wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:04 am New point that was brought to my attention. How will this deal with antagonists and such who are humanoids but won't have a station ID. Things like Nuclear Operatives, Wizards, Space Ninjas, Pirates, and to a lesser extent Fugitives and Bounty Hunters. And things like Xenobio golems, I suppose.
They pay tax
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Yulice » #636101

Oranges how are they supposed to pay a tax if they don't have an ID
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Topham » #636102

Gonna just copy and paste my thoughts from the github thread.
Protolathes, Autolathes, and other production machines now charge at 10 credit tax per item printed from the machine.
This is a disastrous idea, unless you're fine with showering people in so much money that you effectively bring cost back down to 0. Lathes and the like are crucial machines for so much, and they literally already have an associated cost - the cost of the gosh darn item. It's already an issue that department-specific vending machines charge for essentials.
Printing from the Exosuit Printer does not incur a cost as items printed from those lathes are more utilitarian than items printed for yourself from a lathe.
I hope this doesn't come off as excessively rude, but this take is amazingly out of touch. Cyborgs are important but mechs are just fun machines, but you wouldn't consider surgical tools in medbay or cable coils in engineering to be utilitarian?
Players get more ability to interact with the economy without having to do content that's becoming increasingly depreciated in my absence.
The invisible hand of capitalism is already strangling us and wringing us all dry in the real world, how about we don't bring it to our goofy atmospherics simulator.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #636107

I dont think it's a good thing to incentivize players going on fetch quests between other departments to complete their minor gimmicks that the economy has now acted as a wall to completing.

If your busy chasing a goose, when are you supposed to find time to actually do your job or help prevent the antags from ending the round?

It's like if the arcade machine had achievements and a story, to the point where you spent all round on it instead of playing ss13. It's a competing game, not actually helping the entire game that is ss13 at all.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Farquaar » #636108

Topham wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:10 am The invisible hand of capitalism is already strangling us and wringing us all dry in the real world, how about we don't bring it to our goofy atmospherics simulator.
This isn't even like a coal miner buying his tools at the company store. This is the coal miner being charged for every rock he breaks and every beam he sets up in the tunnels.

It's as ridiculous as this Spongebob clip: https://twitter.com/Juliewantsmilk/stat ... 8015850497
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #636117

you can find a popular reply of mine in that twitter thread
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #636136

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:46 am I dont think it's a good thing to incentivize players going on fetch quests between other departments to complete their minor gimmicks that the economy has now acted as a wall to completing.

If your busy chasing a goose, when are you supposed to find time to actually do your job or help prevent the antags from ending the round?
Ok since Oranges is lineposting, here's a snapshot of what Arcane has told them on maintainerbus with their pro/cons/concerns.
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I remember RnD as how it used to be, very time consuming or the captain speedruns all the access to get vital parts, pushes it through the deconstructor then leaves you sitting there with nothing to do on R&D. If its meant to be a intellectual point that "You can't tide for AA because no funds" then you're missing the point that isn't a deterrant to AA and just a two gate system that will segregate a seperate lower social class of player along paycheck lines.
  • There IS a building barrier when you need to get resources on the cheap with the above point when you use cross department or generalist supplies that involve lathe creation like cable-wire for a electrified rage cage, or specialist parts without the scientist willing to offer you the protolathe components (not obliged), the alternative is to mass strip machines from a workplace because your gimmick > whether dept can run. Or to add alterntive resource driven manufacturing methods that are slower than lathes & free.
If "initial" is made free for everyone with/without access and constantly runs in balancing circles as even access rights do to it, what was the point of the tax for everyone?

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This code needs to be clarified first before even pretending to talk to maintainers or the community about it. Completely overhaul bank accounts, even datumize it to the player and distinguish whether cards can or can't trigger that information with a absolutive check. This way identity theives can still get into players banks mechanically but its still just a card you can't yeet resources off without preparation or card hoarding will overwhelm the station to get around the taxes (seperate to whether taxes should exist).

Im not a economist, but it seems pretty self evidently bad 5 cards in a wallet simply makes you immune to financing, and virtually AA depending on who you pilfer as access triggers based on visible cards automatically. I can be 5 different dead people for tax evasion purposes and nobody will bat a eye.
Off Topic
Im not even explicitly reacting to lathe tax right now, i just think oranges has hijacked the thread and made the discussion doubly absurd without a out-of-touch clarification of economic direction that didn't come from any community place but a small table of maintainers.
If you want to see where any of this is publically, its here on discord in this html'd Maintainerbus thread.

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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #636228

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:51 am Im not even explicitly reacting to lathe tax right now, i just think oranges has hijacked the thread and made the discussion doubly absurd without a out-of-touch clarification of economic direction that didn't come from any community place but a small table of maintainers.
The players did that long before i even got involved.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by cacogen » #636255

Yulice wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:04 am New point that was brought to my attention. How will this deal with antagonists and such who are humanoids but won't have a station ID. Things like Nuclear Operatives, Wizards, Space Ninjas, Pirates, and to a lesser extent Fugitives and Bounty Hunters. And things like Xenobio golems, I suppose.
If they really need lathe access the solution would be to give IDs to the roles that spawn without them that can’t just go to the HoP to get them and to give them all bank accounts with a bit of money. Make bank accounts a universal function of ID cards instead of just a Nanotrasen employee thing. Also let players create a new account on an ID that doesn’t have one.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Ziiro » #636599

Make it so that successful revolutions remove the lathe tax
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Scriptis » #636654

I'm fine with adding more systems to the game. I love systems that balance risk and reward and encourage players to explore and interact with those systems.

There is no exploration to be had with a lathe tax. There is no reward to the player with a lathe tax. It encourages use of a system with no upsides. Add more upsides to the system first, and then maybe the lathe tax will be worth the effort. Start with the lathe tax and, like the current state of prog traitors, progress is likely to stagnate and then we'll just be stuck with the old economy plus a lathe tax.

Start somewhere else. Make the economy fun to engage with. Then encourage people to interact with it. Not the other way around.

I do not like your lathe tax.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by MooCow12 » #637106

The lathe tax will be the death of honk labs (my clown maint bases) unless I find a stable source of income like selling explosives to tiders.

The lathe tax doesnt make any sense, especially for someone that just supplied the lathe with materials.

Economy outside of cargo only makes sense if its player or vendor driven because cargo is the only connection to the outside world/rest of the universe, within a stable ecosystem like the space station it doesnt make any sense for the economy to be enforced unless the players themselves were offering eachother goods and services (credits are as valuable as the players on the station can make them) I thought this was a roleplaying game no?


Forcing economy to be more relevant this way is unnatural, unsatisfying, and unintuitive, especially when it can easily be bypassed by just having borgs/someone else print your stuff for you.

Which is why most of all its a massive non human nerf, since non humans cannot law 2 borgs to print stuff for them and get reduced paychecks.

Not only that, but ontop of that its a security buff, security players can remotely fine people (like antags) to limit their ability to print things that they might need and now warden has something to abuse while sitting in his gamer officer.



TLDR: A single clown setting up a shop in maint does more for the economy in a healthy way than this pr ever will, but unfortunately most rounds dont last long enough for shops to be viable.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by toemas » #637109

CDranzer wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:53 am words
this is everything that I've been thinking but actually explained in a way that I wouldn't be able to because I'm retarded. thank you sir.
also, Assistants don't have enough money to buy toolbelts from vendors shift-start anymore, meaning we have to go steal them from engineering, which is annoying, and ironically, encourages tiding.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by marcosbr1110 » #637151

Lathe tax is currently making my life harder to do my actual job than tiding.. If someone's tiding, they probably wont need the money for anything anyways
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Nari Harimoto » #637206

One thing ive seen still not addressed is the silicon abuse issue, if silicons dont pay tax (they cant, no ID or money) then literally anyone can just law 2 them to print everything free, and when the entire station is doing that constantly, the AI cannot actually do anything else, we joke about the AI being a glorified door opener, but *this* will be an actual legitimate issue. is there any plans for mitigating this issue? the easiest would be adding to silicon policy that silicons can ignore law 2 requests to print items, but thats more of a bandaid
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #637213

This is partly discussed in the pr itself, under the lathe tax header
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Prototypemeat » #637336

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:25 pm
NamelessFairy wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:27 pm Future post
I was never able to quite make a custom vendor work as chef, but this manages to kill that idea even more thoroughly by making it unaffordable for me to even create my custom vendor as an income source.
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:16 am
Why It's Good For The Game
Players get more ability to interact with the economy ... Why is this good?
Players also have a baseline consensus on what values of credits are high and low because jobs have been given an equalized standard in regards to the cost of certain items. This already seems to exist but idc that much about the adjustment to credit counts on round start, etc.
Price fluctuations through inflation will now be more meaningful in situations where the economy becomes more relevant. Why is this good?
The system will still encourage you to play a job that's productive to the status of the station through lower paycheck jobs existing as well. Why is this good?
Gas exports are now reduced to the point that their value is appropriate for the first time... actually ever. Nice. This one is actually good, if the bugs are gone.
... without answering to satisfaction why the economy being a Big Deal is good or desirable - the positives of having a high-complexity economy are simply taken as a given.
Has anyone made a case that I missed of what's good about making people interact with the economy by force to counter all the examples of why it's bad so far?
Why pay money for lathe usage takes the fun out of tiding to get stuff. Also traitors would have to spend money on the briefcases to print a lot of stuff.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by RikuTheKiller » #637401

Here with the whole you know "economy really doesn't matter", which I do agree with.
I already said something along the lines of having an access-based system on printers, protolathes and such:

Just add a fucking access type thing that's hackable. Just like with vendors. Except there's a wire for electrocution AND one that disconnects it from the ore silo alongside the one that makes it accessible by everyone. This means that while
your insuls may make it more likely you can do it successfully, failing makes you pretty much fucked. You've disconnected it from the ore silo and the entire department is going to be fucking mad at you. You're going to die, 100%. (Unless the department just doesn't exist.) Why involve the economy in such matters? Involving the economy here just fucks over everyone. If you somehow get an alien tool for it, good job, you're the ultimate tider.

Alongside this change we could change how the ore silo links to things. Having to run across every. single. goddamn. department. just because some guy broke a single machine is fucking ridiculous. You should be able to scan for machines from like, an ore silo console that can be built next to the silo and be capable of linking the ore silo to all unlinked things on the same z-level at once. Then have a similar system to telecomms where you can get a resource transfer relay on another z-level to connect to it. How are the transfer relays connected to an ore silo? Whenever an ore silo is created, it gets an unique 4-digit code that can be changed. The roundstart ore silo code should be stored in the RD's office to avoid having to link an entire serverful of relays. (No-one is going to make 9999 ore silos, make me regret saying this please I want to see it.) Adding this code to a resource transfer relay automatically connects it to the ore silo the code belongs to. This allows the console to search for machines on that level for machines as well, eliminating any issues with places like the mining base.

Overall if all of this was added instead of Arconomy (lathe tax), people would likely be happier, tiding would be a little harder and the ore silo system becomes more than a multitool and a goddamn single machine in a room. Alongside the fact that we no longer have to pay for something that needs resources already.

Also, the other parts of the PR I agree with still. Just not the fucking lathe tax.
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