Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

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Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #635668

Post feedback about the lathe tax here instead so driveby redditors can't comment.
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Post by Drag » #635673

I personally disagree with the tax, it just seems completely pointless and illogical. We already have to purchase things from the job vendor, why do we have to purchase things the station has to research and collect the materials for themselves?
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Post by Yulice » #635676

It sucks and has numerous ways to abuse it and make the game unplayable to people who are even slightly creative with how they grief, along with making actual normal play even without any forms of grief even more fucking tedious and arguably outright having science and engineering refuse to do their entire fucking job
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Farquaar » #635678

If you want interdepartmental cooperation, this is the perfect way to discourage that. "I'm not wasting my money helping this idiot/upgrading that machine. I'll probably need that money later."

It also makes a lot of my favourite clown gimmicks prohibitively expensive.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Turbonerd » #635679

Exosuit fab should not be excluded. Not sure why mechs should be free.

It's a lot to ask for, but here is an alternative lathe tax system (copy/paste from different post that got closed due to this one existing).

The price of printing crap from lathes could be based from the total material costs, and the research points required to unlock the required techs to print said thing. This would make things like RCDs and advanced tools a lot more expensive, making them unavailable to most crew (400% extra tax from non-engineers printing those tools). Higher tier stock parts would also be more expensive, giving reason to choose lower tiers other than "miners not mining!!1!".

Why? Because I think it's silly that a paratider could print RCD and advanced luxury tools for only 40 credits. That set should be like 5,000 credits or something.
Last edited by Turbonerd on Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by serxule » #635682

horrible idea in general, it makes no reasonable sense in any term (gamewise or lorewise), and will just make players miserable. copying what i said on the PR: "actually let me explain, so i as an engineer (or other job similar) will print 50 of each t4 part for upgrading the station, this means itll still cost 500 credits, and if i end up doing it as some other job (if i hadnt chosen it at roundstart or job change etc,) it would be 2500. jesus christ."
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635683

Turbonerd wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:14 am Exosuit fab should not be excluded. Not sure why mechs should be free.

It's a lot to ask for, but here is an alternative lathe tax system (copy/paste from different post that got closed due to this one existing).

The price of printing crap from lathes could be based from the total material costs, and the research points required to unlock the required techs to print said thing. This would make things like RCDs and advanced tools a lot more expensive, making them unavailable to most crew (400% extra tax from non-engineers printing those tools). Higher tier stock parts would also be more expensive, giving reason to choose lower tiers other than "miners not mining!!1!".

Why? Because I think it's silly that a paratider could print RCD and advanced luxury tools for only 40 credits. That set should be like 5,000 credits or something.
This would be nice in a perfect world, but we are traditionally horrible at making systems like this sane at all. Automated costs don't work, and even manually editable ones will just lead to people not considering the value they're changing.

System needs to be setup to withstand feature coders
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #635684

This is just bad. It feels bad and doing any form of machine maintance and creation bad. IF this is to go through expect very a little in terms of machine upgrading during the shift. Gas export changes are good and wouldn't mind being merged just without the tax.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by bastardblaster » #635685

assistants should have to undergo crippling debt to print advanced tools
but yeah the department workers themselves should receive heavy discounts or make em free for them- also would encourage fucking talking to people and asking instead of breaking in and printing off what you need
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635687

ardentarclight wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:49 am assistants should have to undergo crippling debt to print advanced tools
but yeah the department workers themselves should receive heavy discounts or make em free for them- also would encourage fucking talking to people and asking instead of breaking in and printing off what you need
They do yeah, it's 10C per print for a non department member, 2C for one
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by CDranzer » #635689

Can somebody remind me why economy exists
it creates scarcity
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Boot » #635692

I still think that putting it as a cargo upgrade or station random perk thing or whatever its called could be neat. I also really like the idea of unlocking different markets.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Kokonut » #635694

have fun never having anyone BRPE your machines, give you tools, make pretty spraypaint creations, repair anything, or building much needed machines ever fucking again
what's that? your department got blown up? ummmm sorry making all those light tubes and floor tiles would cost me like half the money i make and i already spent the other half upgrading 1 machine and a half. sorry

also, can't security send people fines? security can just fine all the engineers and scientists all their money. what are you gonna do? break in? with what RCD?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by enginseer-42 » #635696

I mean, do we really want to encourage Tiders to steal ID's? Because that's where I see this going.

Tiders beating people up and taking your ID. Because now they get your paycheck, and theirs. On top of any departmental discounts your ID might get them.

Honestly, I don't think tying economy to lathe printing really works because it penalizes people for doing their jobs. We don't charge cargo crates out of the technicians accounts. They have a Cargo budget.

Universalizing the Economy would need a significant overhaul. Tying it to lathe printing just seems like a hacky way to try and get people to care about a system that barely works as is for Cargo and vending and can be broken with even mild effort depending on job.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by serxule » #635699

ardentarclight wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:49 am assistants should have to undergo crippling debt to print advanced tools
but yeah the department workers themselves should receive heavy discounts or make em free for them- also would encourage fucking talking to people and asking instead of breaking in and printing off what you need
but this relys on the round not being low/deadpop, which should be accounted for
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Blase » #635702

enginseer-42 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:28 am I mean, do we really want to encourage Tiders to steal ID's? Because that's where I see this going.

Tiders beating people up and taking your ID. Because now they get your paycheck, and theirs. On top of any departmental discounts your ID might get them.

Honestly, I don't think tying economy to lathe printing really works because it penalizes people for doing their jobs. We don't charge cargo crates out of the technicians accounts. They have a Cargo budget.

Universalizing the Economy would need a significant overhaul. Tying it to lathe printing just seems like a hacky way to try and get people to care about a system that barely works as is for Cargo and vending and can be broken with even mild effort depending on job.
Thats absolutely something sec will kick their shit in for. Why do you people release the FUD over any pr.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by oranges » #635705

Kokonut wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:53 am have fun never having anyone BRPE your machines, give you tools, make pretty spraypaint creations, repair anything, or building much needed machines ever fucking again
what's that? your department got blown up? ummmm sorry making all those light tubes and floor tiles would cost me like half the money i make and i already spent the other half upgrading 1 machine and a half. sorry

also, can't security send people fines? security can just fine all the engineers and scientists all their money. what are you gonna do? break in? with what RCD?
it's ten credits you donut, not hundreds.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by massa » #635706

This idea is a genuinely bad one and is bad for the game. Nonsensical, pointless, bad.

There are many ways to get us to interact with the economy that isn't this. Also, economy as a set of mechanics didn't need any love. The crab phones are insanely useful, credits are useful. My sec shifts are spent budgeting my credits for the bartender and my own gear (I always end them broke or near broke, and find myself sometimes appropriating donations from the soulless in medbay). On almost every job I find myself using my credits in one way or another. People will not do bounties and this will lead to a kind of shitty state of affairs for engineering and science, especially That Guy:tm: who RPED's everyone's machines out of the goodness of his heart.

If you guys want to fix a non-issue, implement player controlled traders who actually sell cool shit. Spicy shit. No dickless MRP garbage items from them that are afraid of their own shadow, give us a reason to be enterprising upstarts among Nanotrasen's most hustling and bustling of corporate orbital research platforms.
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Post by Vekter » #635708

The lathe tax doesn't really matter in the long ruin, which isn't a knock against it as much as it is a knock against the economy concept in general. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but it doesn't seem to really do anything to the economy. A credit sink doesn't really matter if there's not actually a purpose to removing credits from the economy.

I don't really care if this gets merged or not, it doesn't really impact anything I do in my jobs, but I feel like Arcane should better communicate what he's trying to accomplish with this. Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see anything in the PR that indicated what this was trying to do and why forcing further interaction with the economy is a good thing.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Timberpoes » #635711

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65795 has been testmerged on Manuel to gather feedback.

I have a particular instrest in how, if at all, it impacts the various positive gameplay loops we tend to like to see from players such as repairing, cross-departmental cooperation, construction projects and all the wholesome stuff that goes into making SS13 cool.

I'm sure it'll make its way onto the other servers in due course. I really just wanted to see another ritual mass suicide.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635713

Vekter wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:01 am The lathe tax doesn't really matter in the long ruin, which isn't a knock against it as much as it is a knock against the economy concept in general. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but it doesn't seem to really do anything to the economy. A credit sink doesn't really matter if there's not actually a purpose to removing credits from the economy.

I don't really care if this gets merged or not, it doesn't really impact anything I do in my jobs, but I feel like Arcane should better communicate what he's trying to accomplish with this. Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see anything in the PR that indicated what this was trying to do and why forcing further interaction with the economy is a good thing.
In fairness, he can't really at the moment because the pr's been locked
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by serxule » #635715

oranges wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:14 am
it's ten credits you donut, not hundreds.
copying what i said earlier on this post: "copying what i said on the PR: "actually let me explain, so i as an engineer (or other job similar) will print 50 of each t4 part for upgrading the station, this means itll still cost 500 credits, and if i end up doing it as some other job (if i hadnt chosen it at roundstart or job change etc,) it would be 2500. jesus christ.""
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #635717

150 credit cable coil
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635719

Should maybe be done per print rather then per amount yeah
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #635722

Farquaar wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:45 pm I thought economy already was a success because:
1. Money is a fun RP prop
2. Money can be used to buy l33t gear from vending machines
3. People would actively trade money in-game for reasons 1 and 2

Ask not what the game can do for arconomy- ask what the acronomy can do for the game.
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Why It's Good For The Game
Players get more ability to interact with the economy ... Why is this good?
Players also have a baseline consensus on what values of credits are high and low because jobs have been given an equalized standard in regards to the cost of certain items. This already seems to exist but idc that much about the adjustment to credit counts on round start, etc.
Price fluctuations through inflation will now be more meaningful in situations where the economy becomes more relevant. Why is this good?
The system will still encourage you to play a job that's productive to the status of the station through lower paycheck jobs existing as well. Why is this good?
Gas exports are now reduced to the point that their value is appropriate for the first time... actually ever. Nice. This one is actually good, if the bugs are gone.
This seems very... bloat-ish... to me, adding complexity without meaningful choices or value and impeding the use of it in RP contexts (tipping the bartender, offering someone 100 credits to fuck off, buying cigs, etc.) while impairing the ability of engineers and scientists to do jobs like upgrading other departments (god forbid you, like me, were the assistant who would Handle It if the scientists or engineers wouldn't), all without answering to satisfaction why the economy being a Big Deal is good or desirable - the positives of having a high-complexity economy are simply taken as a given.

Unless the intent is for grey tiders to steal people's IDs for their money and their discounts, in which case, this PR is spot on?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Thunder11 » #635724

This would at least be less of a bad idea if using your own lathe was free, rather than taxed at a lower rate. As it stands the two ways I, an assistant can get stock parts to build a machine for my funny project in maint are 1) Burn 10 credits of my own money for every single part or 2) Expect a scientist/engineer to still have the patience this far into the round to waste 2 credits per item of their own money on something they'll never get any benefit from in the hope that the person across the desk will pay them back. If the lathe tax was at least reduced to nothing for department members, they would be able to freely print lathe items for people, and if they want to interact with the economy there's still a 10 credit per item price difference to leverage a payment out of someone.

Overall this PR feels like it's falling into the same trap as previous economy reworks, which take the crew's obvious disinterest in interacting with the economy unless they have a compelling reason to do so and saying "They'll use it if only I integrate it with a few more systems". Integrate in this case meaning lock more existing systems behind a credit wall. The way economy gets implemented every single time dooms it from the start to be a widely hated feature, as it never adds any substantial new features or systems and simply serves as an extra barrier to using other ones. The people who want to use money as a roleplaying tool are already able to do so under the current iteration, and the people who don't will simply continue to interact with the system to the minimum extent possible until something new and exciting is added to incentivise using the economy.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Mothblocks » #635726

TheFinalPotato wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:54 am Should maybe be done per print rather then per amount yeah
+1 -- 30x cable coil should become one instance or whatever.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by WineAllWine » #635730

wait, what? Why are people gonna be charged money to do their jobs?
There should definitely be a 100% discount for stuff from your department
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #635731

Thunder11 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:24 am Overall this PR feels like it's falling into the same trap as previous economy reworks, which take the crew's obvious disinterest in interacting with the economy unless they have a compelling reason to do so and saying "They'll use it if only I integrate it with a few more systems". Integrate in this case meaning lock more existing systems behind a credit wall.
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Post by iain0 » #635734

RIP ghetto construction projects.

Also just a thumbs down on anything interdepartmental interaction assuming. To produce the same list of failed inter departmental co-operation see also : Why medical research was moved to gateway behind dissection rather than xeno core scans which no-one cared about because they got nothing out of it. See also thermomachines generally not working for the first 15-20 minutes of a shift because atmos never bother to set up the waste loop because they get nothing out of it. Or the blessing that is the Odysseus mech which so rarely gets made because robotics never gets anything out of it. Heck you're lucky if cargo even bothers to deliver cargo.

Interdepartmental co-operation isn't something you you just 'declare' and it is so, you don't really achieve it by forcing one party to require another totally disinterested party that gets nothing out of it to do something which they won't do most of the time on LRP. Basically has to be a benefit for both parties to get it done. And I don't think adding a further tax will be the motivator.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Booktower » #635735

I have mixed feelings about this, especially the lathe tax. That said I really want to see this in-game to see how it *actually* plays out, but with the possible option of reverting problematic parts of it. Regardless of the merit of parts of the PR I really appreciate the time Arcane took to look at Economy, particularly the rebalancing of buy prices
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Post by enginseer-42 » #635737

Blase wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:53 am
enginseer-42 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:28 am I mean, do we really want to encourage Tiders to steal ID's? Because that's where I see this going.

Tiders beating people up and taking your ID. Because now they get your paycheck, and theirs. On top of any departmental discounts your ID might get them.

Honestly, I don't think tying economy to lathe printing really works because it penalizes people for doing their jobs. We don't charge cargo crates out of the technicians accounts. They have a Cargo budget.

Universalizing the Economy would need a significant overhaul. Tying it to lathe printing just seems like a hacky way to try and get people to care about a system that barely works as is for Cargo and vending and can be broken with even mild effort depending on job.
Thats absolutely something sec will kick their shit in for. Why do you people release the FUD over any pr.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how busy Sec is with their job elsewhere.

Point is, this makes ID loss even more crippling than it was previously, and encourages ID theft even more than previously.

And even if it does get in securities radar, that isn't going to discourage Tiders any more than it ever has. Did the fact that it was a massive execution or Perma level crime stop Tiders from beelining to the captains spare ID every round before it was locked away in an indestructible box?

I'm not trying to be Mr fear uncertainty and doubt. Most of the pr seems cool and I even overall like the idea of the economy being more accessible. Because it is pretty fun mucking around with it in cargo.

But that being said, this is just slapping a tax onto stuff as a "we need to make you care about money now" Switch.

Right now, the place where the Economy works best is cargo.

The best way I can think of to try and export it, and make it relevant to the rest of the station would be to look at that, and figure out how to make each department have money be relevant to it's operations. Cargo has a large, public budget that all your decisions go into either squandering or maximizing.

Maybe replace research points with a science budget, that goes up for every experiment you do. Or give them a smart fridge style loadable vending machine that let's sci sell things to the crew.

Let the gulag make money for sec, or put little license plate presses in each cell that help speed up your sentence, but also grind out a little extra for the Sec budget.

Have a medical cost scanner, you scan a dude when they come in and it tallies up a price for the procedures they need, and scan them again after it's done, and it'd charge the appropriate department.

I dunno. It just seems like a lathe tax is punishing you for doing your job, far more than it's acting as a gateway to gear.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Kubisopplay » #635742

Its either going to make silicons get abused in order to get free stuff, or lock silicons out of printing things at all, which will kill a lot of cool projects and generally things that you could do as a cyborg. Convincing someone to print things for you will be borderline impossible without raiding vault for credits, which is just stealing from the station. Also makes any ghetto lathe projects a complete pain in the ass. On the upside... I guess paychecks make you finally capable to buy some more stuff?
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Supermichael777 » #635744

Components for machines need to be tax exempt if this isn't cut entirely. Printing 5 advanced flanges is already so tedious tools exist to store and move them, upgrading 1 machine costing 1+ paychecks is going to make people never do it.

Also labeling all negative opinions FUD is encouraging toxic positivity. Don't step up to the stage if you can't handle the spotlight.

Additionally, where do taxes go? Do they just poof out of the economy? IDK currently the economy lacks huge encouragements to loop internally and doesn't do it systemically.
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Q: Where are the cat boys?
A: I don’t follow.
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Nist
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Nist » #635747

Personally I remain vastly unaffected as I mostly work on SM /HFR stuff when I'm an engi/atmos, just not a fan of things like Exofabs not being affected, or most printers.

Also worried for the general sillycon experience and how that's going to pan out with the "AI print X for me" spam that will happen.
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Nabski
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Nabski » #635751

enginseer-42 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:16 am
Blase wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:53 am
enginseer-42 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:28 am I mean, do we really want to encourage Tiders to steal ID's? Because that's where I see this going.

Tiders beating people up and taking your ID. Because now they get your paycheck, and theirs. On top of any departmental discounts your ID might get them.

Honestly, I don't think tying economy to lathe printing really works because it penalizes people for doing their jobs. We don't charge cargo crates out of the technicians accounts. They have a Cargo budget.

Universalizing the Economy would need a significant overhaul. Tying it to lathe printing just seems like a hacky way to try and get people to care about a system that barely works as is for Cargo and vending and can be broken with even mild effort depending on job.
Thats absolutely something sec will kick their shit in for. Why do you people release the FUD over any pr.
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Back when BEPIS was a thing, I spent a few traitor (and a couple not traitor) rounds rolling up on people, getting their ID, taking all the money off it, then throwing their ID back at them and running off.

I never had issues with security as a result of it. If you threw out a few verbal insults so that they thought you were just assaulting them for giggles or that "they chased you off before you could finish what you were really up to" then you were fine. You also could just get the money by asking about 50% of the time in the non traitor versions. Then they moved it from science to cargo and I never touched the feature again.

This is still a shit feature that stifles fun, you'll have enough money to do the minor round thing, but never enough to do creative projects.
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Cobby
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Cobby » #635754

Disclaimer I have not tried it yet.

You should not have to pay money from your personal account to do your job, Vending machines are acceptable at least in Medical’s case because it encourages them to use the non vending method to make stuff but especially when we start talking about stock parts and surgical tools/ cyber organs this sounds cringe.

Money is just going to be devalued by nature of “well there’s this constant sink so we need to code more ways to offset” until the actual items we want to gate behind economy become trivial and therefore eco itself becomes trivial.

What would be nice is if you (head) could set the taxes for printing as an outsider and that money goes to dept account, and have it scale w material cost. Supply should also be able to price mats so if you pull from wifi you “order” the minerals and can pre-buy minerals for a slight discount to reserve it
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Helios
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Helios » #635758

If I recall correctly, botany vending machines charge you to buy seeds, cultivers, and other supplies
They're free if you're in Botany.


That type of distinction is fine.
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Drag
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Drag » #635761

Now that the test merge is up: From what I noticed the discount dosent even work sometimes and people are now already abusing the fact silicon can print things for free.
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Jolly66
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Jolly66 » #635774

I think the lathe tax can work, but should be relaxed in some situations.

It would be an interesting endeavor to see the QM have some weigh-in on the tax itself (with a hard min/max predetermined in the code).

Also, where does the tax money go? Is it forever deleted or is it "collected"? If neither are true, it would also be nice to see said money go back to the station in some way.
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #635784

asking the scientist to have to pay several hundred credits to upgrade each machine-heavy room is just going to even further push the mindset of "Never ever print anything but the best parts its a waste to print mid-tier parts"
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #635785

QM should definitely be involved in price control, and it should go back into his budget.

QM greed or qm peace? What type of villainy and paranoia will come about if the price is too high? A small thing like that could definitely lead to some interesting stories.
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Yulice
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Yulice » #635788

Literally have already witnessed doctors hemming and hawing now over replacing a single fucking organ in someone, and basically quintupled the length of a medbay visit. This is absolutely fucking ludicrous.
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mindstormy
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by mindstormy » #635791

As long as folks are able to do their jobs at a heavy discount of for free (my preference fuck having to buy seeds as a botanist) than i'm cool with it.
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635792

We already don't see T4 lasers because Science players don't want to have to learn to mix Hyper-nob, now you're going to see nothing ever get upgraded, because why would they? What do they get back from it? Even if it's discounted to 2cr per item, you're still looking at a LOT of money.

If you want to promote inter-departmental cooperation, make it cost 10cr for any lathe other than your own, and free for your own. I'd prefer it doesn't happen at all, but if it has to in some way, that's the only smart way.
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NoxVS
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by NoxVS » #635797

My problem is less with the tax, which feels pretty negligible, and more what is going to happen when you can't meet the tax. It is going to be extremely frustrating to be unable to print anything from an autolathe or protolathe for the arbitrary reason of not having an ID or not having enough money. It generally feels like 95% of the time this tax is going to mean absolutely nothing, but the 5% of the time you are forced to deal with the system is going to be nothing but a massive pain.
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Ivan Issaccs
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Ivan Issaccs » #635801

Alright, let me assume Im understanding this correctly.

When I play, I main science, is my understanding correct that if I do my usual thing of print off a BRPD, 20 of the best manipulators, matter bins, 10 lasers, 10 scanning modules and then mosey around the station upgrading peoples shit its going to cost me 122 credits to do so.

Because right now I use that money to buy clothes.

And I'll tell you right now, the later option is the fun one for me so the crew can go fuck themselves.

Im also anticipating a lot more prayers for cash now.

Absolutely terrible idea.
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iwishforducks
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by iwishforducks » #635803

NoxVS wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:40 pm My problem is less with the tax, which feels pretty negligible, and more what is going to happen when you can't meet the tax. It is going to be extremely frustrating to be unable to print anything from an autolathe or protolathe for the arbitrary reason of not having an ID or not having enough money. It generally feels like 95% of the time this tax is going to mean absolutely nothing, but the 5% of the time you are forced to deal with the system is going to be nothing but a massive pain.
seconding this. lowering the tax to just one credit, or making the pricing more sensible for each item, etc. doesn’t touch up on the core issue that the tax does not actually matter. the tax only matters when you can’t arbitrarily meet it.
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Shadowflame909
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Shadowflame909 » #635805

the real issue with the economy is that theres not enough ways to actually make money, and the few ways that do exist are tedious and unrewarding!

annoying for players. a nightmare for cargo
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Lathe tax - digg free comment thread

Post by Pandarsenic » #635807

NamelessFairy wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:27 pm Future post
I was never able to quite make a custom vendor work as chef, but this manages to kill that idea even more thoroughly by making it unaffordable for me to even create my custom vendor as an income source.
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:16 am
Why It's Good For The Game
Players get more ability to interact with the economy ... Why is this good?
Players also have a baseline consensus on what values of credits are high and low because jobs have been given an equalized standard in regards to the cost of certain items. This already seems to exist but idc that much about the adjustment to credit counts on round start, etc.
Price fluctuations through inflation will now be more meaningful in situations where the economy becomes more relevant. Why is this good?
The system will still encourage you to play a job that's productive to the status of the station through lower paycheck jobs existing as well. Why is this good?
Gas exports are now reduced to the point that their value is appropriate for the first time... actually ever. Nice. This one is actually good, if the bugs are gone.
... without answering to satisfaction why the economy being a Big Deal is good or desirable - the positives of having a high-complexity economy are simply taken as a given.
Has anyone made a case that I missed of what's good about making people interact with the economy by force to counter all the examples of why it's bad so far?
Last edited by Pandarsenic on Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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