Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

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NecromancerAnne
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Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by NecromancerAnne » #638106

Rather than get into too much of the specifics of balance in the game broadly and ops performance wise, I wanted the opinions of exactly is or isn't working in the current uplink. The game mode has been around for a while, and it's almost certaintly gathered some real sore points for equipment. As such:

1. What items are too expensive/not worth the price? Why?
This usually means items that are probably useful but simply poorly priced for what they do.

2. What items are good, but don't work for nukies because X.
Would be worth elaborating here. This usually means an item that strictly has a use but that ops cannot make good use out of it, so it is pointless being in their uplink.

3. What desperately needs a rework and why?
Something that thematically could be salvaged but need obvious help to get there. Currently it is barely worth considering.

4. What should be removed and not reintroduced?
This is usually because the item is flat out a bad idea, a trap item to trick the unwitting, unhealthy for the game space, or is currently adequately handled by a multitude of other options.

I appreciate any feedback on this. Feel free to leave any further thoughts.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Pandarsenic » #638107

Shotguns are solidly in "not worth" compared to comparable-price or even cheaper guns. Honestly, probably falls into category 3.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by massa » #638110

There's plenty of goofy shit that should NOT be removed even though it's of dubious usefulness, because it's fun, and can be used to great effect by creative people.

Adrenals/stimpack
These are asscheeks. They don't do what they say, which is reduce stuns. It would not be ridiculous for the uplink to contain something that actually makes it more difficult to stamcrit someone, for normal tots AND nukies. These fit 1, 3. Make them significantly more expensive if they will provide significant stun resistance.

Syndicate Holster
4, this thing sucks lol. It's a 2 slot webbing (when real webbing has what 7?) and uglier than the badass webbing we get. The webbing holds guns just the same.

Armor piercing ammo in general
It's wack rn isn't it? It might not be, but it's super expensive and not worth its price I believe.

The chem sprayer works but it's such a piece of shit you could really make it a nastier weapon and like it would maybe be purchased once in a while for funsies. Even on the wiki it says it's a colossal piece of shit. It functions but it doesn't work. Maybe replace it with an autodart gun or something, because spraying chems is inherently wack apparently?

There are flamethrowers that you can buy and it's INSANE that you can't buy packed, pressurized fuel cans for it. I consider the inability to buy ammo for a weapon in the nukie uplink to be not working.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Yulice » #638118

Alright, I was specifically asked for my opinion on this, so here I go. Expect tons of crazy jumping back and forth but I'll do my best. I'll also probably put multiple things into multiple categories.


Bioterror Bundle- right out the gate, this thing is expensive as FUCK, being 30 tc, and it comes with a ton of shit that frankly doesn't work half the time, is easily countered by taking a sip of multiver, and is inferior to just fucking shooting a guy. Don't know if it could be salvaged with a rework into some sort of acid thrower but chems and how they interact with players are very much either "this does nothing or it fucking kills you instantly"

Bulldog Bundle- The Shotgun is in an absolutely dismal state right now, and is arguably weaker than even the sniper rifle at the moment. The only uses I've seen for it are for lone ops, who get it for free, or more as a fucking door breaching tool with meteor shot. Could probably either be heavily discounted even more than it is now as a way to incentivize arming up a slew of recruits as shock troops, or buffing the shotgun in general

Cybernetic Implants Bundle- 40 TC for what could potentially be six sets of reviver/thermal eye implants is absolutely atrocious. It either needs a TC price cut or to be reworked a bit into a predetermined pack of implants that everyone agrees they'd want (which, frankly, is probably only going to be x ray eyes)

Medical Bundle - 15 tc, and the only thing actually worth it is the medical kit inside. Toy guns are a joke and very much inferior to just killing a guy unless you're doing a funny gimmick, and magboots are straight up actually worthless given every operative has a jetpack and the jetpacks have stabilizers in them.

Sniper Bundle - 20 TC, comes with a rifle, a silencer, and two magazines of sleepy darts. Might actually be decently useful with Fikou's scope rework, but we'll have to see.

All the Toy Guns- Various costs, but again, they fall very flat when you are going to be loud as fuck and murdering your target is infinitely more efficient with a ranged weapon. And if you're in melee range and need to be nonlethal, CQC fills that niche way better

84mm RPG - 8 TC, the gun itself is actually fairly priced, I'd say, but the bigger problem becomes transporting it, which is bulky, along with the ammo for it, which costs 4-6 TC per shot and isn't exactly light to carry, either. Along with being incredibly dangerous to your own teammates as well, this is another item that could potentially use a rework.

Biohazard Chemical Sprayer- 20 TC, see Bioterror Bundle, this thing fucking sucks mongo dick.

C-20r Submachine Gun- Surprised to see this here? The gun itself is great, but when it costs 13 tc, and the Bundle for it costs 14, comes with the gun, a silences, AND two extra magazines, you can see how just the gun itself can fall a little flat.

Energy Shield- 16 TC. Hoo, boy. This thing. In the days of yore, before my time, it apparently blocked taser shots, which meant it was a very highly sought after purchase. Nowadays, though, it costs twice as much as an esword and has just as much block as one, without being able to hit people for thirty brute. Probably needs a HEAVY discount to make up for the fact that it's a shitty esword, or potentially a buff/rework into being essentially a desword that only blocks but lets you use a gun with it.

Flamethrower- 4 TC. Do I really have to say about why this thing fucking sucks for nukies? Even on station it sucks unless it's in the hand of a highly experienced atmos tech, and even then they can probably do more damage with the ventilation system than a fucking flamethrower

M-90 GL- I'm torn on this one. It's essentially a slightly better all around upgrade to the C-20R, and at only a 1 tc higher cost (or the same cost as the bundle), seems like a decent buy. It hits you harder when the ammo costs 20% more than the CR, or TWICE as much for the AP equivalent, which is a neat gimmick but frankly the Phasic ammo generally falls flat in comparison to regular bullets.

Surplus SMG- Sucks dick, only costs 2 tc, which frankly is probably par for the course, but is very much a bait weapon and even the stock makarov you start with does better work than it. Probably only stuck around for memes

Makarov Pistol- You start with one, why is it in the uplink?

Box of Throwing Weapons- I know, you think I'm crazy, but HEAR ME OUT. The paper airplanes in it are useless. What if we upticked it to like 4 or 5 tc and swapped the planes out for two more bolas as ops? Maybe an Assault Throwing Weapons kit?

Gloves of the North Star- With the advent of modsuits, these are completely fucking useless. Needs to either be reworked into a modsuit module (not ideal, because then it fucks over non modsuit users or people who swap between them, and also competes with the very full module list of nukie suits already) or, more ideally, an implant of some sort.

Combat Gloves Plus- Same issues that North Star has, though I'd say making Krav Maga into a modsuit module wouldn't affect tots as much and also it wouldn't need to be as complexity heavy, probably like a 1 complexity mod?

Dart Pistol- Normally pretty useless, but with the advent of the chem lab on the nukie base, might have some spicy applications

Poison Kit- Basically a bait item for tots as well, I'd frankly just rip this out of the game and implement the poison kit exclusive chems into being made workable, if exclusively through the nukie base's chem dispenser or more overall as an emagged chem dispenser option with some work.

Suppressor- You're a fucking nukie, you're not going to be loud, and if you were going to be quiet then putting a supressor on most guns makes them too fucking big to hide anyway. Pretty pointless

Syndicate Holster- There's a shit ton of these on the base and they're worthless 90% of the time anyhow.

40mm Grenade Box- Probably balanced, honestly? But still feels a little bad to pay 1.5 tc per grenade for something that is EXTREMELY cumbersome to both remove from the box and also place into your gun. The only way to take one out is to have two empty hands, hold the box in one, and then press z on the box with another empty hand.

All Incendiary Ammo- Fire fucking sucks dick and only scares people who are fresh to the game, and the ammo does generally about half as much as its normal counterpart as a "balancing" factor for setting people on fire.

Mech Support Kit Bag- Combat Wrench is funny, but the fact that it comes with a smaller amount of ammo than the normal mech bag is a bit silly, and with the mech rework ammo is no longer interchangeable between the two mechs, since gygaxes have the scatter shot and Maulers have the AC-6. Inducer is neat, could potentially be a standalone item for 1-2 tc to help with people who are smarter with mechs.

Bioterror Foam Grenades- Suffer from the same reasoning that the chem sprayer does, and will probably pale in comparison to what can be made in the chem lab

Buzzkill Grenade Box- Very roll of the dice on how useful they'll be, but very funny and probably should stick around for meme value, though definitely not worth 15 tc, I feel.

Fungal Tuberculosis- Alright. These are very good. Incredibly good. Too good for nukies to have, frankly. They're incredibly fucking lame and unfun to fight against, and can essentially cripple any sort of resistance if nukies are smart in how they play around these. Virology in general sucks ass and I'd be fine with these getting axed entirely.

Slipocalypse Clusterbang- Another meme item, but it is only 3 tc. Probably fine?

Detomatix- PDA bombs fucking suck, the nukies already get one, and it rarely ever gets used and even if it is it never detonates anyone on station nowadays.

EMP Grenades- Very niche use, again, generally better to just fucking shoot them, rarely bought even for normal traitors.

Pizza Bomb- Come on. Could MAYBE be used for a funny nukie pizza delivery gimmick, but that's about it.

EMP Bomb- See EMP Grenades. If you have the TC for an EMP bomb, you can probably just get a regular bomb to much greater effect.

Exosuits- I've not played around with them much since the mech rework, but from what little I have they still seem fairly weak for the absolutely CRIPPLING tc cost they have, and even on war ops unless they get an extreme discount they rarely see much use.

Agent ID Card- You start with one, why the fuck would you ever need more?

AI Detector- Not really going to do much for you unless you're a stealth op, and even if you are stealth, all it'll do is let you know the jig is up given any AI is immediately going to notice, "hey, these guys aren't on the manifest"

No-Slip Chameleon shoes- again, another issue with modsuits. Probably needs to stick around for people who do try stealth ops, but they REALLY should have a VERY big disclaimer/warning that pops up that lets you know they don't work with modsuits if you're trying to buy them as an operative

Surgery duffel bag- You have surgery tools on the ship, and likely aren't going to be able to make a borg with the MMI included.

Syndicate Encryption Key- You start with one, why the fuck would you ever need more?

Thermal Imaging Glasses- Falls short of the thermal eye implant or the X ray implant, and is also a modsuit visor now.

Adaptive Cardboard Cutouts- Not really useful, but comedic, could be used for gimmicky ops rounds

Camera Bug- piece of shit, only exists to get illegal tech, probably one of the oldest things in the uplink though. Save it as a relic?

Chest Rig- There's like seven of these on the nuke ops base.

Frame PDA cartridge- Even more worthless than the detomatix, only use is that you could buy a broken chameleon kit and use two PDAs to make a tot uplink, but that's probably a bug, and you'd have to wait for about 40 minutes to get anything substantial thanks to prog tot rep

Full Syndicate Toolbox- You can get tools on the base, but this could be useful in a niche case where you lost your tools somehow but managed to keep your uplink in the field? very niche but mostly useless, DOES only cost 1 TC

Radioactive Microlaser- Probably useful for stealth ops? I dunno, I've never used this fucking thing

Crab-17 phone- shitty meme, worthless for ops, annoying, cringe

Blood-Red Magboots- Same issues I highlighted in the medical bundle up top. Falls short of a jetpack with stabilization, could be useful in very niche paplications if you're doing shit around the SM, but why would you be within touching distance of the SM as an operative? Just blow it up.

Syndicate Combat Medic Kit- 4 TC, comes with MedHUD NVGs and a combat defib which are nice. The patches inside are stock 75% purity libital/aiuri, and they have 2 units of those chems and 8 units of gran each. The combat injector likewise is a cool item but has a pretty shit chem mix in it. Given that nukies are now able to make their own chems, this could probably use a hefty buff to compete with being able to manufacture your own shit that'll make you immortal.

Sentience potion- only exists for cayenne, essentially, though could have use with the xenobio lab now.

Guerilla gloves- see combat gloves plus and north star

Power Beacon- Do I really need to explain? Can have some use for normal tots but no nukie is going to manufacture a singulo or tesla

Syndicate Space Suit- Again, marginally useful for stealth ops, but falls short of the modsuit heavily now.

Internal Syndicate Radio implant- Not really useful given the circumstances, but could be used if you want to ditch your syndie headset for stealth ops?

Uplink Implant- Why would you buy this

CNS Rebooter- With how stuns have been reworked, this does nothing to stam crit, and in addition just makes you vulnerable to EMPS

Reviver Implant- They are going to shoot you until you blow up, and also makes you vulnerable to EMPs.

I think that's about everything that's in the uplink that I had any qualms or comments on.



There is a LOT of shit in the Nukie uplink that doesn't work for how aggressive they play normally, and is 80% gimmick toys. There's also a few things I'd like to see added, frankly. Infiltrator kit wholesale might be a nice buy for people trying to be more stealthy; perhaps even a "barebones" infiltrator kit that just has the jumpsuit and mask for half the TC cost for nukies looking to burn a little bit of spare TC on something that's a slight upgrade to their normal gear.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Livrah » #638122

1. Pizza bomb. Besides pizza delivery gimmick doesn't worth it at all.
Medical bundle. Totally overpriced compare to Medic Kit, duffel is now useless too.
EMP flashling. 4 TC vs 2 TC full EMP kit.
Syndicate holster. You either get 7 slots webbing, or 4 TC chamelion set for stealth.
Chest Rig. The base has 7+ of this.
Syndicate Tome. 5 TC when you got access to better heals.
Biohazardous Chemical Sprayer. 20 TC makes it usable only on Warops, but most of time it won't work.
Grenadier's Belt. 22 TC for something what most likely gets YOU killed.
2. Bags of explosives. It was worth more then the explosives emselfs due syndie duffelbag. MODsuits problem.
Spetsnaz Pyro bundle. pyro backpack fire sprayer AND MODsuit. My sides.
Powerfist/flamethrower. Doesn't work without proper tank (new syndie base update might fix it)
Night vision MOD. Nukies got their own NVG and better one with Medic Kit.
3. PML-9. It needs not a rework, but a revert flame PR. You damage yourself more then the crew. Dmg of rockets is laughable too.
I heard that Gloves of the North Star doesn't work with MODsuits. Not a "stealth ops" item either.
Bulldog and shotgun ammo. Throw this thing away and forget.
Blood-Red Magboots. It shoudn't slow you down IMO.
4. CNS Rebooter Implant. Helps with a stun, not stamina damage. Completely useless.
Radioactive Microlaser, Camera Bug, lol.
MODsuits in general. Bulky instead of old medium-sized removes stealthops options, amount of modes/settings makes it feel bad to use even for experienced players. Just adds 10+ lines of copies of other nukies equipment. I prefer if "antag" version of suits keep a hardsuit style.
Last edited by Livrah on Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by sinfulbliss » #638123

1.
- The Energy Shield. 16 TC leaving you with only 9 TC left for non-warops. For an item that just deflects energy projectiles, that's way too much, especially since a desword accomplishes the same goal while also having blockchance against batons and being the best melee weapon in the game. 10 TC would even be asking a lot but would be more reasonable.

- No-slip module. There is no reason this should be 4 TC, twice the amount of normal noslips, when previously normal noslips worked with nukie hardsuits. Most of the other nukie modsuit stuff seems somewhat overpriced, but it's not listed on the Wiki so I can't talk about anything else specifically.

- Sniper Rifle. At 16 TC for the gun alone, this is just too expensive to be usable. I've seen a sniper rifle used by nukies a total of one time successfully, which was during warops with penetrator rounds and x-ray (upwards of 30 TC with reloads). By itself it's just too slow to be safe to use in scrambles and mob-fights. It should be much cheaper, maybe 12 TC.

- All of the autoimplants except for x-ray. Practically all the implants are way too expensive to be worth it for non-warops, aside from maybe x-ray. The CNS rebooter at 12 TC is... Practically useless, since it only affects stuns and not stamina damage (two Stimpacks will last probably the whole round and do the same thing but with a bunch of other benefits). The reviver implant is also useless since being in crit alone, without someone finishing you off, is incredibly rare, it should be 4 TC or less. The thermal vision implant is also completely useless since x-ray is 2 TC higher and gives the benefit of having infinitely more vision than thermals.

A ton of the stuff is completely useless but shouldn't be removed because, hell, let people have fun with their toys. Not every item needs to be the optimal choice. The ones I've listed stand out as ones that seem particularly egregious though. The energy shield and sniper rifle are too cool and core to the nukie aesthetic to be so rarely used and expensive, and the no-slip module's price makes slipping and subsequently owning a fully-kitted nukie way too common.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by blackdav123 » #638136

M-90gl - Grenade ammo is very fun but doesnt do nearly enough for how much it costs. Either make this blow people up harder or reduce price

Assault Pod Targeting Device - Usually results in the nukies getting jumped by the entire crew and the turrets really dont do that much. Reduce the large price of 30 TC and this might be worth as a fun way to entry.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638138

Holoparasites should be added to it. Stand Proud and all that
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by DaydreamIQ » #638147

massa wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:53 am There are flamethrowers that you can buy and it's INSANE that you can't buy packed, pressurized fuel cans for it. I consider the inability to buy ammo for a weapon in the nukie uplink to be not working.
The flamethrower/Pyro bundle actually got an insane rework that made it a module built in to the pyro bundle's elite modsuit. I feel like giving the Bioterror bundle something similar for the chem sprayer would make it an incredibly useful upgrade especially with the new firebase rework
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by CursedBirb » #638151

DaydreamIQ wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:02 pm
massa wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:53 am There are flamethrowers that you can buy and it's INSANE that you can't buy packed, pressurized fuel cans for it. I consider the inability to buy ammo for a weapon in the nukie uplink to be not working.
The flamethrower/Pyro bundle actually got an insane rework that made it a module built in to the pyro bundle's elite modsuit. I feel like giving the Bioterror bundle something similar for the chem sprayer would make it an incredibly useful upgrade especially with the new firebase rework
Flamethrower itself did not received any buff. I talked a little with Fikou and they suggested making normal flamethrower into a gun version of module to make a bundle more unique. I suggest to give same treatment to bioterror bundle by making a module that shoots foam nades with random chem from the list of toxin chems. As for normal chem sprayer I suggest making it into grenade launcher with 6 shot magazine of the same nades as module version. You could be also able to buy new magazines to both grenade launcher and gun version of flamethrower
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Pandarsenic » #638155

Yulice wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:58 am Poison Kit- Basically a bait item for tots as well, I'd frankly just rip this out of the game and implement the poison kit exclusive chems into being made workable, if exclusively through the nukie base's chem dispenser or more overall as an emagged chem dispenser option with some work.
Do NOT touch my poison kit, this thing is exceedingly deadly for traitor who can use it with an emptied-out sleepy pen to instantly inject people with large amounts of deadly chems, which probably means it's similarly deadly with a stealth op (as if they exist anymore).

The big trick is you need that sleepy pen for abrupt delivery.
Yulice wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:58 am Uplink Implant- Why would you buy this
If you have TC to burn and not enough space to hold stuff, the Uplink Implant can be nice to smooth out the SAW's exceedingly awkward reloading process.

Everything else I basically agree with, especially that...
- Holster BEGONE
- Detomatix is dead now since people can just choose not to explode from it
- Modsuits break all the Cool Shit people can have in hand/foot slots
- Crab Phone is awful
- The Combat Medic kit needs actual good chems instead of meme libital and aiuri
- CNS Rebooter, Reviver Implant, PLEASE
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Yulice » #638195

Ops can't buy sleepy pens. And again, I'm saying make all the dangerous chems in the poison kit able to me manufactured with an emagged chem dispenser. We'd probably see them more often and it'd give sec a reason to care about things being emagged. Besides, the most potent death mixes for sleepy pens all come from chem anyway.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Pandarsenic » #638198

Yulice wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:59 pm Ops can't buy sleepy pens. And again, I'm saying make all the dangerous chems in the poison kit able to me manufactured with an emagged chem dispenser. We'd probably see them more often and it'd give sec a reason to care about things being emagged. Besides, the most potent death mixes for sleepy pens all come from chem anyway.
Yeah, but the dart pistol... the only problem is the lack of suitably-sized syringes.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Yulice » #638199

Pandar they get an entire fucking chem lab on their base now.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Pandarsenic » #638211

Yeah, but you still can't make goodies like Initropidril, Sodium Thiopental, etc.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Yulice » #638224

Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:39 am Yeah, but you still can't make goodies like Initropidril, Sodium Thiopental, etc.
That's why I'm saying just can the poison kit and make those chems craftable at an emagged dispenser.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Pandarsenic » #638235

You know what? Fuck it, go for it. I was like "But then the station can get them too" but GOOD honestly, let it happen. Make SOMETHING dangerous enough that emagging it isn't treated as a joke.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #638290

massa wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:53 am Syndicate Holster
4, this thing sucks lol. It's a 2 slot webbing (when real webbing has what 7?) and uglier than the badass webbing we get. The webbing holds guns just the same.
The holster lets you carry two huge guns that couldn't fit in webbing, its use would be if you wanted to carry a rifle AND a rocket launcher. Webbing can only hold small guns, but has the advantage of more slots. Also, these don't need to be in the uplink because they spawn around the base. I would say that it is a good choice for anyone who wants to run an RPG.

The sprites are pretty ugly lol, the ones I added during its original PR were better.
Last edited by Itseasytosee2me on Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #638293

Shotguns are all around bad. Probably wise to gut them and then readded when they inevitably get reworked.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Annihilite111 » #638511

Some weapons like the L6 have cheap enough ammo that you're reasonably never going to run out, while other equally expensive, and in fact less powerful weapons (looking at you, sniper and RPG) have insanely expensive ammo (fucking 4tc/shot? Really?) And aren't really that good for killing. The sniper especially suffers from this, since it doesn't even have a niche as hallway/barricade clearer. Seeing as it's only really useable with the phase rounds and thermals/xray, i shouldnt have to pay 5tc for 6 rounds. The L6 has 50 round mags for only 6tc, meaning you pay around 1tc for every three bursts. I would actually argue that the sniper should be able to penetrate windows, firelocks and airlocks by default, since that's the bare minimum needed to fire beyond the range where an L6 is objectively better, kills faster AND costs less to shoot.
Come on, it has a really low rate of fire and doesnt even crit in one hit. Give the sniper some love.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by toemas » #638538

The energy shield is overpowered. It renders all energy weapons completely worthless, without a downside other than that it takes up a hand slot.
I think that it would be cool if nukies could buy the blast cannon now that they have a toxins.
shotguns are pretty dogshit
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638540

i've seen nukies get one shotted by an ion gun for some reason

I think its modsuits. Can we get anti-ion stun modsuit upgrades
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by NecromancerAnne » #638553

Shadowflame909 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:11 am i've seen nukies get one shotted by an ion gun for some reason

I think its modsuits. Can we get anti-ion stun modsuit upgrades
It's likely from cyber implants actually. The modsuits only cause the wires in the suits to electrify the modsuit core, and even then, the nukie suits have EMP protection.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638554

now i feel stupid

so I must double down and say modsuits should have had a way to prevent this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(sorry fikou)
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by NecromancerAnne » #638558

So, I greatly appreciate what people have shared in this thread so far, and it's really done a lot to confirm things I already knew. I suppose it's worth considering and talking about some of the elements brought up so far. I'll try to get some highlights for stuff brought up and see what people think:
Spoiler:
Shotguns
For now they're tied somewhat to station balance, but thankfully due to my porting over some functionality that can help balance shotguns in particular, we don't need to worry about balancing the bulldog at the same time as station shotguns with regards to damage.

But I think it is worth considering what place shotguns ultimately have. As far as damage goes, before the nerf, the bulldog was still outclassed due to shotguns doing comparable damage to other guns at close range, and almost all other guns outclassing them for damage at longer ranges (except maybe slugs, where they outclassed the other mostly pointless gun, the revolver), making the bulldog entirely obsolete even in the area that it should be dominate (close range combat). I think one thing that the bulldog has over other weapons is utility, which was brought up already.

Meteor slugs allow for door breaching, which I think is a fun way of using them. To me, I think it is pointless to try and have bulldogs try and outpace other weapons for damage unless damage in close quarters is looked at for other weapons. Which I don't think anyone wants to bother doing (and frankly isn't going to be very easy for players to figure out what constitutes 'close' in a game limited to 7-14 tiles in view range). Instead, I think the best approach for the bulldog is to double down on utilitarian functionality. Not necessarily at the expense of any damage, but in a way that damage isn't the focus, but the benefits it provides otherwise.

Bundles
Clearly not very well considered between all the bundles and the individual weapons themselves. It seems absurd to ever not just buy the bundle for a weapon over the weapon itself, given what it gives you in return. I think there is nothing wrong with the bundles as a concept, so these clearly need to be rethought.

Items that get overridden with modsuit pieces
Stuff like no-slips, gloves and other items. Entirely meaningless as a choice while modsuits override them/already do their job. Lots of items probably just need to get made into modules and/or implants instead.

Cybernetic Implants
It doesn't make sense that these are still purchasable while functionally doing nothing for operatives whatsoever. Reviver implant actively doesn't help an op survive (they will probably be overkilled), and CNS rebooter currently doesn't actually prevent most stuns (the majority are above 4 seconds).

Worse, ops tend to rely on EMPs as a weapon, so utilizing EMP vulnerable cybernetics makes zero sense. These need to be reconsidered heavily for why they exist and what purpose they would serve, and whether changing them would be healthy for the role's power.

The extant gear that ops kind of already get
Clearly in need of removal. Stuff like agent cards and encryption keys are given out to reinforcements for free. Why these exist is meaningless.
I'm planning on having a look at some of this down the line with Fikou. Don't necessarily expect anything too soon but this has been a useful signpost of 'stuff that needs help'. Which is a surprisingly large amount of the uplink.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Annihilite111 » #638562

NecromancerAnne wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:57 am Snibbidy snab :DD
The noslips and thermals are as stated useful for stealth ops. Please don't remove them.
Keep the xray and thermal implants too. They are nearly a must for nukies and having them be MODsuit exclusive would again impact stealth ops.
The one, extremely niche use i can see for the agent cards and encryption keys is for some kind of conversion op with hypnosis/brainwashing. Then again i think you need to TC trade to get that stuff as a nukie in the first place, so maybe it doesn't matter.
Wild idea: what if nukie MODsuits had a module that let you keep the functions of stuff you're wearing underneath? That would fix most of the currently useless or redundant items that MODsuits broke
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Fikou » #646557

Annihilite111 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:25 pm Wild idea: what if nukie MODsuits had a module that let you keep the functions of stuff you're wearing underneath? That would fix most of the currently useless or redundant items that MODsuits broke
That requires a whole system to be coded to support that.

Anyway, the Nuclear Operative gear stuff has started, you can peep the first two PRs here.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68396
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68401
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by anclador » #646735

Rocket Launcher - reloads are just stupidly expensive. I mean, doing the math the gun itself only actually costs 2 tc. The Cheapest ammo is 4 tc. If you compare that with the UB grenade launcher for the carbine, which you can buy boxes a 4 for 6 tc, so 1.5 tc per nade, but they do pretty much the same thing, making the Rocket Launcher just a dumb pick.

Shotgun - the ammo is too expensive, costing 2 tc for eight rounds. Actually that isn't quite that bad becuase a three round burst on the C-20r gives you 8 "shots" in a 3 tc mag. Only difference is the C-20r has longer effective range, but it does cost slightly more. If you subtract the mag in the gun, the two extra mags, and the suppressor, the C-20r costs 2 tc in the bundle. And subtracting the costs for the bulldog shotgun, it would be 3 tc. So even though the bulldog is cheaper, its bundle is less efficient than the C-20r bundle.

Donk guns- they need a way to buy new mags for them, and they could probably use a price cut too. Without extra mags reloading them is a pain. Maybe even sell the mags in 2 packs for 1 tc.

Basically every specialty ammo - Not sure if they need a cost decrease or a damage increase but I pretty much never use them. The largest offender is the match box ammo for the L6, which costs 10 tc for bouncing ammo, which is a novelty at best. I mean, the phasic mag is double the cost of the normal one for the carbine. And maybe it is worth it, but the price is just daunting. It just feels like why not shoot somebody with double the normal ammo.

Not anything wrong as of now, but it would help stealth ops a ton to be able to buy or start with a cham mask so they could change their voices away from whatever hellish last name was chosen, because as it is now stealth ops have to shut up or die.

Also you talked about removing things like agent ids from their store because they start with them but I feel like they should stay in case they are doing things like golem creation.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by anclador » #646747

NecromancerAnne wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:32 am It's likely from cyber implants actually. The modsuits only cause the wires in the suits to electrify the modsuit core, and even then, the nukie suits have EMP protection.
I thought that they needed to buy emp proofing. Seems like it maybe should come with it if it doesn't, given hardsuits were emp proof. Then again, hardsuits and modsuits aren't 1 to 1.
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Re: Nuclear Operative Uplink: What works and what doesn't?

Post by Shadowflame909 » #646834

Rocket ammo definitely could be cheaper. So expensive yet so easy to self explode yourself with if not shot down a straight hall. It's the fireball of the nukie uplink
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