Fermichems purity system is really unclear

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638958

I've been on a roll today talking about features that feel like they hate the players using them. Fermichems recipes!

Recipes are inaccurate now, upon which all of your chems will turn into useless goop that isn't what it says it is. If you want the right recipe, you gotta know the secret meta combination. Or find a video of how to accurately make it on youtube.

It's understandable that we want more depth in chemistry, but it could really use some easier in-game guidance. So players don't have to build lists out of game to have a functional chem lab.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Pandarsenic » #638965

Wait, even the recipes in the ChemDispenser itself are inaccurate now? Which ones?
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #638988

Ill be honest, making funny floyd fentynl as a inverse is kind of outweighed in all my interactions with fermi-chem to casually interacting with it without literally opening the chemistry page constantly on the sidebar (the chemistry kit was also a letdown, ill mention it but not contribute it directly to my 10 cents). I never use and probably wont use chem-plumbing until i can find time to teach myself on a downstream, so all unseen chemistry failures hit particularly hard in my mixing.

Re-reading the introductory PR, i think its more insightful what kind of addition it is to the game by the previous 2019 testmerge pr

Members like surreallaser kind of articulate a view i have of fermi-chemistry

My only reflection is it'd be a lot less meta-recipie/meta methodology wasteful within a certain level of progression if there was PH controller injections in abstract (juice of lemon, convert to PH controller inject strength 3 acidity, apply to beaker to manually raise PH, all controller PH reagents are used on contact without diluting the mix) even if it was monotonous to give the player more direct editing of mixtures.

A breif visual reminders of fermi enclosed:
► Show Spoiler

Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638990

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:19 am Wait, even the recipes in the ChemDispenser itself are inaccurate now? Which ones?
I would tell you but I don't remember recipes unless im looking at the chemistry guide :lol:

A good way to fix fermichem like how we "fixed" all the other jobs, is to make chem machine's synthetic chems struggle with impurity. But if you grind up some items for chems, you can avoid the extra hassle of purity-complexity in exchange for the time spent scavenging for whatever chem your trying to make.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
nianjiilical
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:30 am
Byond Username: Nianjiilical

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by nianjiilical » #639000

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:19 am Wait, even the recipes in the ChemDispenser itself are inaccurate now? Which ones?
its not that theyre inaccurate but rather that they dont take purity into account

the biggest offender off the top of my head is chloral hydrate; if you just follow the recipe as is, you fail the purity check and get sludge. the "actual" chloral recipe right now is 15 chlorine 5 ethanol 5 water with about 30u of bromine as a "catalyst"
human: ramon chivara
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise

admin feedback thread

my admin policy:
Spoiler:
Image
cacogen
Forum Soft Banned
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by cacogen » #639016

Somebody posted this in the Discord the other day, might help. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =110532939
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #639017

Thats so sad that we now need a guide to do this job instead of being able to easily do it ingame

Chemistry got Toxins'd
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Pandarsenic » #639027

nianjiilical wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:00 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:19 am Wait, even the recipes in the ChemDispenser itself are inaccurate now? Which ones?
its not that theyre inaccurate but rather that they dont take purity into account

the biggest offender off the top of my head is chloral hydrate; if you just follow the recipe as is, you fail the purity check and get sludge. the "actual" chloral recipe right now is 15 chlorine 5 ethanol 5 water with about 30u of bromine as a "catalyst"
Ohhhh yeah, they list the reactants and the optimal pH but Chloral's is so tight that it fails unless you float it in like 2-3x as much fluid as you end up with

(Never mind what Cacogen mentioned with all the inverse chems needing their own separate guide because they're basically super-janky recipes that are halfway between "Secret" and "Well, no, just stupid")
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645042

Still salty about this. Made a sentient virus really hard to cure because the guide to chem recipes was inaccurate

Lipocide requires Hydrogen as a catalyst now (Thanks purity system for complicating the game while not adding any more fun!)
► Show Spoiler
iain0
In-Game Admin Trainer
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:23 pm
Byond Username: Iain0

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by iain0 » #645049

It's not that you "need a guide", it's like going and playing WOW or EVE or any other number of games where you can either go figure it out yourself or just look up the answers on the interweb.

What you're missing is the method that saves us all going insane with modern chemistry ; I think the intent is to do stuff with the droppers and buffers in the reaction chamber but I'd just straight quit chemistry if it got that tedious.

The way everyone does it that isn't really explained anywhere is abusing the "averaging" of the pH. The classic example I always use when teaching newbies is oil.

Throw 5u hydrogen/carbon/welding fuel in a beaker and take it to the purity tester machine (spectral analyzer), it'll be quite impure.

Throw 20u water, 5u hydrogen/carbon/welding fuel in a beaker and test it. 100% pure oil. Remove the water.

Why? Because the water doesn't react with anything in the reaction and has a ph of 7. When the entire beaker is evaluated, over 50% of the beaker is stuck always at ph7 and you're just 'averaging in' the pH of the oil.

In short, flood your reaction with something that doesn't react which will "outweigh" the changes in pH in the reaction.

Generally the answer is a large dose of radium or water (unless you're doing ammonia in your chain).

The end result is a list of tedious button presses you either solved yourself (i have my notepad full of them and shared the healing chems that are pure back when this chemistry first came out) or obtained elsewhere.



The biggest issues I have are that it bloated recipes out without really adding anything interesting ; nowadays I have to memorise and press 7 buttons rather than 4 or whatever to get the same result. Power draw by using the flooding method is higher since you waste a bunch of unreacting chems often. Once you've initially 'solved' a reaction that's it, and solving them is best just done offline somewhere so you can just focus on the problem.

(They're not catalysts either, catalysts should speed up a reaction or something, these non-reacting components added have literally no effect on the reaction its self, they just keep the average in the beaker within limits)

Also I feel inacusiate's config is busted, it produces +15 pH change for every 10 units you react, kinda nuts really and much bigger than most other values.
User avatar
iwishforducks
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:48 pm
Byond Username: Iwishforducks

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by iwishforducks » #645052

Just an fyi: Maintainers said they would merge the removal of the PH mechanics but did request that the reaction-over-time mechanic stayed in because they thought it was cool. Someone was working on a PR and merged it somewhere downstream but I bugged them to push it upstream and they still haven’t done so after like a month.
im gay (and also play the moth “bugger”)

Image
User avatar
nianjiilical
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:30 am
Byond Username: Nianjiilical

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by nianjiilical » #645080

yeah the slow reaction mechanic is cool

for what its worth i do think the overall concept of "there is a 'better' way to make chems if you're willing to take the time" is still good, it might just be better if its less of a punishment and more of a reward

maybe something like keep the purity/ph system but remove failed chems and put a lower limit on how impure a chem can be, so that if you just zero effort make a healing chem you still get a decent amount of usable chemical from it, but if you're willing to play the ph game you get rewarded with more effective/pure healing, as opposed to the current system of if you dont play the ph game you just dont get anything
human: ramon chivara
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise

admin feedback thread

my admin policy:
Spoiler:
Image
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645099

I like the current system though. I don't know why anyone thinks chemical engineering would be easy and something you should be able to do by just dumping chemicals in a bottle with zero thought. Balancing ph is realistic, adds needed complexity to the system, allows experimentation to find optimal recipes with minimal waste, and is basically the only thing making chemistry not be "oh just look on the wiki and add the 2 or 3 chemicals listed into a bottle with zero thought".

If you want to do chemistry but without ph, go play bartender instead, that is LITERALLY what that job is.
Image
Image
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645101

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:50 am I like the current system though. I don't know why anyone thinks chemical engineering would be easy and something you should be able to do by just dumping chemicals in a bottle with zero thought. Balancing ph is realistic, adds needed complexity to the system, allows experimentation to find optimal recipes with minimal waste, and is basically the only thing making chemistry not be "oh just look on the wiki and add the 2 or 3 chemicals listed into a bottle with zero thought".

If you want to do chemistry but without ph, go play bartender instead, that is LITERALLY what that job is.
its literally just the current system except you need updated recipes

imagine if someone added an extra surgery step to every surgery but made it so it was invisible on the surgery computers so you had to screw around until you found it, or until someone makes a guide on discord that tells you what the secret step is

Tedium for tediums sake does nothing
► Show Spoiler
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645186

Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:02 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:50 am I like the current system though. I don't know why anyone thinks chemical engineering would be easy and something you should be able to do by just dumping chemicals in a bottle with zero thought. Balancing ph is realistic, adds needed complexity to the system, allows experimentation to find optimal recipes with minimal waste, and is basically the only thing making chemistry not be "oh just look on the wiki and add the 2 or 3 chemicals listed into a bottle with zero thought".

If you want to do chemistry but without ph, go play bartender instead, that is LITERALLY what that job is.
its literally just the current system except you need updated recipes

imagine if someone added an extra surgery step to every surgery but made it so it was invisible on the surgery computers so you had to screw around until you found it, or until someone makes a guide on discord that tells you what the secret step is

Tedium for tediums sake does nothing
It's not tedium for tedium's sake, it adds much needed complexity and experimentation to the system. For example, look at inverse chemicals like Corazargh or Helgrasp - to obtain these chemicals you need to heavily experiment with and understand how ph and purity interact, and it rewards players for learning the system, instead of being like other departments like, lets say, security, where you just run in to the armory and grab what you need - no thought process required.

How do you propose inverse or impure chemicals that players want to use be obtained with ph being removed?

It is NOT just "the current system but you need updated recipes" unless you're someone who only cares about "must powergame and get 100% purity chemical as quickly as possible while using as little brain as possible". Like someone who sets up the sm every shift with just the default setup shown on the wiki every single round and has never changed the pumps out for straight pipes and volume pumps or whatever, just because the only thing they care about is "must generate power for the station".

Like, if you want to be that boring person who does that sort of thing, fine, do it, but don't take away the complexity that I enjoy and rewards me.
Image
Image
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645187

nianjiilical wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:00 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:19 am Wait, even the recipes in the ChemDispenser itself are inaccurate now? Which ones?
its not that theyre inaccurate but rather that they dont take purity into account

the biggest offender off the top of my head is chloral hydrate; if you just follow the recipe as is, you fail the purity check and get sludge. the "actual" chloral recipe right now is 15 chlorine 5 ethanol 5 water with about 30u of bromine as a "catalyst"
Regarding chloral hydrate in particular, it's current state is actually excellent, because it makes for the perfect "teaching" chemical right now. I've taught a bunch of people chemistry, and I always use chloral hydrate because the base recipe fails, but then I tell them to do 30u Aluminium 30u Chlorine 10u Ethanol and 10u water and it works and you show them the purity in the purity machine, and it clicks for people, when you explain how the aluminium diluting the chemicals balanced the ph of the solution.

Chloral hydrate failing on base recipe is unironically a positive addition due to it being super useful for this purpose.
Image
Image
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Mothblocks » #645225

nianjiilical wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:18 am yeah the slow reaction mechanic is cool

for what its worth i do think the overall concept of "there is a 'better' way to make chems if you're willing to take the time" is still good, it might just be better if its less of a punishment and more of a reward

maybe something like keep the purity/ph system but remove failed chems and put a lower limit on how impure a chem can be, so that if you just zero effort make a healing chem you still get a decent amount of usable chemical from it, but if you're willing to play the ph game you get rewarded with more effective/pure healing, as opposed to the current system of if you dont play the ph game you just dont get anything
i said we could just remove the negative chems at the meeting and people still got mad at me
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645227

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:37 am
It is NOT just "the current system but you need updated recipes" unless you're someone who only cares about "must powergame and get 100% purity chemical as quickly as possible while using as little brain as possible". Like someone who sets up the sm every shift with just the default setup shown on the wiki every single round and has never changed the pumps out for straight pipes and volume pumps or whatever, just because the only thing they care about is "must generate power for the station".

Like, if you want to be that boring person who does that sort of thing, fine, do it, but don't take away the complexity that I enjoy and rewards me.
My issue isnt even 100% purity. My issue is that I cannot make the chems I need to make when I need to make them. Like how a killer virus was killing everyone and my cure was turning into complex sludge. So I had to discord-dive for a google doc page of how to make it. But by the time I did I and several other people had already died. (also the cure didnt even work lol. Probably because the other chemical in it was a failed impure chemical disguised as the pure one. Since fermi-chem also trolls you like that.)

What you describe as fun complexity. I describe as gatekeeping because there's no guide to it. Acidic Buffer and Basic Buffers dont even work and don't prevent the chems from turning into sludge. So you either have to be one of the 4 people who knows the meta for the new chem recipes that aren't listed anywhere. Or you just have to turn horizontal and enjoy not having access to any chem that requires an additional step that the literal guide of the game doesnt tell you about.

Literally the same exact issue I have with Toxins and Toxins-Locked content

Gatekeeping sucks. Let everyone have access to it, and if it's too strong that it needed to be gatekeeped then just nerf the reward. That simple.

Edit: Heaven knows the amount of OP stuff atmos mains can do. That no one cares about and hasn't been nerfed because only 8 people are aware of it, and only 4 people can consistently do it out of like the 160 consistent players.
► Show Spoiler
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645228

Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:26 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:37 am
It is NOT just "the current system but you need updated recipes" unless you're someone who only cares about "must powergame and get 100% purity chemical as quickly as possible while using as little brain as possible". Like someone who sets up the sm every shift with just the default setup shown on the wiki every single round and has never changed the pumps out for straight pipes and volume pumps or whatever, just because the only thing they care about is "must generate power for the station".

Like, if you want to be that boring person who does that sort of thing, fine, do it, but don't take away the complexity that I enjoy and rewards me.
My issue isnt even 100% purity. My issue is that I cannot make the chems I need to make when I need to make them. Like how a killer virus was killing everyone and my cure was turning into complex sludge. So I had to discord-dive for a google doc page of how to make it. But by the time I did I and several other people had already died. (also the cure didnt even work lol. Probably because the other chemical in it was a failed impure chemical disguised as the pure one. Since fermi-chem also trolls you like that.)

What you describe as fun complexity. I describe as gatekeeping because there's no guide to it. Acidic Buffer and Basic Buffers dont even work and don't prevent the chems from turning into sludge. So you either have to be one of the 4 people who knows the meta for the new chem recipes that aren't listed anywhere. Or you just have to turn horizontal and enjoy not having access to any chem that requires an additional step that the literal guide of the game doesnt tell you about.

Literally the same exact issue I have with Toxins and Toxins-Locked content

Gatekeeping sucks. Let everyone have access to it, and if it's too strong that it needed to be gatekeeped then just nerf the reward. That simple.
Except that's wrong - you said you found a guide on google - so which is it? Do no guides exist, or do player-made guides exist? Is the wiki the only guide you count, for some reason? Furthermore, is the wiki team not doing a job sufficient to your particular standards really a good reason to remove content?

Also, Toxins-gating is a completely different issue - the issue I have with toxins-gating is it gating non-science content behind toxins (looking at you advanced engineering), forcing non-sci players to either do sci's job, harass sci players, or cope and live without their content. Chemistry and it's products are entirely localized to the medbay.

Also, you never addressed how you would like the inverse or impure chemicals to be created without ph.

Also, is "requiring any amount of mechanical or game knowledge" really gatekeeping? Because I really don't think this is gatekeeping.
Image
Image
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645229

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:39 am Except that's wrong - you said you found a guide on google - so which is it? Do no guides exist, or do player-made guides exist? Is the wiki the only guide you count, for some reason? Furthermore, is the wiki team not doing a job sufficient to your particular standards really a good reason to remove content?

Also, Toxins-gating is a completely different issue - the issue I have with toxins-gating is it gating non-science content behind toxins (looking at you advanced engineering), forcing non-sci players to either do sci's job, harass sci players, or cope and live without their content. Chemistry and it's products are entirely localized to the medbay.

Also, you never addressed how you would like the inverse or impure chemicals to be created without ph.

Also, is "requiring any amount of mechanical or game knowledge" really gatekeeping? Because I really don't think this is gatekeeping.
1. Yes it's a guide from the /tg/station discord thats a google doc. It is a player-made guide, and I'm sincerely peeved that such a big change requires me to go out of my way to look for how to do chemistry all over again, because it has made the wiki entirely inaccurate for little gain. Other then "complexity" which is still gatekeeping.

2. Inverse chems are just OP poisons and unless your an antag there's no real reason to use them. But if you want to keep them, then just add them as regular chemicals that require the proper chem as a part of the recipe + another recipe. Like Unstable Mutagen + Ephedrine.

3. Hidden amounts of mechanical or game-knowledge only accessible to a small group of players is gatekeeping. Otherwise toxins would be made every shift and not once per day. If that. The simple fact that atmos has its own anti-stun, healing meth gas that they can inhale and zoom off with yet literally no one knows and is never seen unless a certain player comes on is crazy to me. Atmos powergaming is so gatekeeped you might as well call it an adminbus round.

TLDR: Yes. You're not convincing me that important chems required for the use of preventing mass death via viruses deserve to be locked behind a system that isn't accessible to the majority of the playerbase. I also think it should be removed rather then added to the wiki, because of the amount of tedium and reagent reduction it has added with little gain on fun.
► Show Spoiler
BrianBackslide
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:43 am
Byond Username: BrianBackslide

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by BrianBackslide » #645234

I've never had a problem making small batches of cure for whatever virus. Even the harder ones that need Pax or Anacea don't require messing with purity in small batches.

There has very little benefit for achieving 100% purity other than being able to make more of [X] chem in a single batch. The system is almost entirely punitive outside of the gamer failed chems. It's a system where there's a very fine line on whether it needs to always be interacted with, or never interacted with. Is that a line really worth having and is the gameplay compelling?

Throwing 30 radium/sodium/bluespace dust into a mix to make it pure doesn't feel compelling, neither does looking up a google spreadsheet on the discord. Not especially when it's just to make the chem as standard and there is no benefit beyond what the chem is already supposed to do.
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645235

Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:50 am 1. Yes it's a guide from the /tg/station discord thats a google doc. It is a player-made guide, and I'm sincerely peeved that such a big change requires me to go out of my way to look for how to do chemistry all over again, because it has made the wiki entirely inaccurate for little gain. Other then "complexity" which is still gatekeeping.
This reads as "I'm upset that I don't know or understand this system, and I don't want to have to learn it, so just change it back to the simpler system". Explain to me why I should get punished by having my time I spent learning the current system wasted, just because you're too lazy to learn the system, even though you have already found guides on it.
Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:50 am 2. Inverse chems are just OP poisons and unless your an antag there's no real reason to use them. But if you want to keep them, then just add them as regular chemicals that require the proper chem as a part of the recipe + another recipe. Like Unstable Mutagen + Ephedrine.
Yes, I very much WOULD like to keep them. Dangerous chemicals are my go-to for Heretic because Heretic tools themself are trash.
Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:50 am 3. Hidden amounts of mechanical or game-knowledge only accessible to a small group of players is gatekeeping. Otherwise toxins would be made every shift and not once per day. If that. The simple fact that atmos has its own anti-stun, healing meth gas that they can inhale and zoom off with yet literally no one knows and is never seen unless a certain player comes on is crazy to me. Atmos powergaming is so gatekeeped you might as well call it an adminbus round.
Except it's NOT only accessible to a small group of players. You found a guide in like 2 seconds of googling. I'm sure I could do the same, and any other random player. Also, I've taught probably a couple dozen people how to do Chemistry, and Atmospherics for that matter (I even got a positive note for it when an admin noticed once, nice!). This argument of "it hard, therefore remove" is terrible for several reasons - firstly, the thing I love about this game in the first place is system complexity - I absolutely enjoy spending my time fine-tuning an HFR build, or trying out a new way to do the supermatter, and I had a blast learning to construct a synthflesh factory - and I love teaching others how to do these things. These systems being complex and rewarding is a huge draw for myself and a lot of other players in several departments, especially atmos, chemistry, and engineering, and I REALLY don't like that you want everything dumbed down because you're too fucking lazy to learn the systems.
Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:50 am TLDR: Yes. You're not convincing me that important chems required for the use of preventing mass death via viruses deserve to be locked behind a system that isn't accessible to the majority of the playerbase. I also think it should be removed rather then added to the wiki, because of the amount of tedium and reagent reduction it has added with little gain on fun.
It IS accessible. You found a guide in 2 fucking seconds on Google. This is a game that takes hundreds of hours to learn, and that's a positive, not a negative. If YOU don't want to learn chemistry, go stick to stabbing people with spears with your metacomm greytide buddies, don't call for the things I enjoy to be removed.
Image
Image
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by toemas » #645246

it's wierd as hell because it seems like the intended game design is to use acid buffers and basics and shit (why?) but it's actually pointless because you can just put sodium or something in the beaker while your mixing it and it's faster and more effective
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645263

toemas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:54 pm it's wierd as hell because it seems like the intended game design is to use acid buffers and basics and shit (why?) but it's actually pointless because you can just put sodium or something in the beaker while your mixing it and it's faster and more effective
acid and basic buffers are still used sometimes, even for the meta recipes. The meta recipe for Corazargh, for example, calls for no less than 17 basic buffer uses.
Image
Image
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #645509

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:37 pm
toemas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:54 pm it's wierd as hell because it seems like the intended game design is to use acid buffers and basics and shit (why?) but it's actually pointless because you can just put sodium or something in the beaker while your mixing it and it's faster and more effective
acid and basic buffers are still used sometimes, even for the meta recipes. The meta recipe for Corazargh, for example, calls for no less than 17 basic buffer uses.
I've just looked up your Klingon mouthwash sounding name and my eyes bulged.

Reading into it, buffers are commonplace to the real world field of chemistry for being simple so there's really no reason why it shouldnt be more accurate, CHES (N-Cyclohexyl-2-aminoethanesulfonic acid or carbon-hydrogen-nitrate-sulphur) for alkaline solutions and suprise suprise citric acid unknowningly blurted out by myself earlier are commercially used because its not affected by hydrolosis and wont change PH.
Acid Buffer from the wiki
2 parts Ethanol
2 parts Hydrogen
2 parts Sodium
2 parts Water
The problem is that this is just sodium hydrate, the ethanol and the water is meant to be 'distilled water' and has been misinterpreted away from its actual definition of 'purified' H20 allowed to condense and reform. All SS13 water is considered clean and pure for purposes unless said otherwise so this is just annoying. The actual missing component here is Sodium Citrate, which is invoked in different medical applications, i would suggest centrifuging any of the botany fruits (or otherwise) to extract some then have a great volume of it in mixing to make it worthwhile.

Monosodium citrate - Blood clotting agent & Alkaline solution for dealing with kidney failure.
Disodium citrate - Acidic, and used as a anti-oxidant usually in stuff like preservatived foods like jam.
Trisodium citrate - Slightly alkaline and main anti-hydrolysis agent used in food, cheese and alka seltzer, is its most commonly referred to 'as' sodium citrate despite other citric salts above.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645512

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:09 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:37 pm
toemas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:54 pm it's wierd as hell because it seems like the intended game design is to use acid buffers and basics and shit (why?) but it's actually pointless because you can just put sodium or something in the beaker while your mixing it and it's faster and more effective
acid and basic buffers are still used sometimes, even for the meta recipes. The meta recipe for Corazargh, for example, calls for no less than 17 basic buffer uses.
I've just looked up your Klingon mouthwash sounding name and my eyes bulged.

Reading into it, buffers are commonplace to the real world field of chemistry for being simple so there's really no reason why it shouldnt be more accurate, CHES (N-Cyclohexyl-2-aminoethanesulfonic acid or carbon-hydrogen-nitrate-sulphur) for alkaline solutions and suprise suprise citric acid unknowningly blurted out by myself earlier are commercially used because its not affected by hydrolosis and wont change PH.
Acid Buffer from the wiki
2 parts Ethanol
2 parts Hydrogen
2 parts Sodium
2 parts Water
The problem is that this is just sodium hydrate, the ethanol and the water is meant to be 'distilled water' and has been misinterpreted away from its actual definition of 'purified' H20 allowed to condense and reform. All SS13 water is considered clean and pure for purposes unless said otherwise so this is just annoying. The actual missing component here is Sodium Citrate, which is invoked in different medical applications, i would suggest centrifuging any of the botany fruits (or otherwise) to extract some then have a great volume of it in mixing to make it worthwhile.

Monosodium citrate - Blood clotting agent & Alkaline solution for dealing with kidney failure.
Disodium citrate - Acidic, and used as a anti-oxidant usually in stuff like preservatived foods like jam.
Trisodium citrate - Slightly alkaline and main anti-hydrolysis agent used in food, cheese and alka seltzer, is its most commonly referred to 'as' sodium citrate despite other citric salts above.
If you're proposing we make it even more complex I'm all for it.
Image
Image
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Pandarsenic » #645561

If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater the way you can have it do it in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #645600

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:03 pm If you're proposing we make it even more complex I'm all for it.
Moreso that a truthful representation of PH buffers requires more effort than is presently pushed through it with applied research that took me no less than 3 minutes being used for my post. Running juice or chemicals through a atomic-dissective blender of a centrifudge (quite literally blendercode) could be done in one step to "recycle" reagents, but that's my take on the issue if you wanted to make synthetic orange-juice by programming or uploading to the bio-generator the cruicial components.

I might be getting offtopic on the concept of more seperated PH controllers and buffers however.
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater the way you can have it do it in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely
Dare i mention Merchantstation's levelled PH scale of 7 on all chemicals purely for a purpose of streamlining intended use as chemicals were before.No one seems inclined to believe me when the are the best promotion of the efficacy to enjoy /tg/'s plumbing system, because you don't need PH-regulators and tanks to draw away the agents used to induce PH from the final solution, so can just focus on the same synthflesh solution you make every round anyway.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
Nabski
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89
Location: TN

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Nabski » #645605

I went to go do some chem as a result of this thread. I wanted to make nitroglycerin and was very annoyed to see it required both corn from botany AND special chem from a geyser on mining.

Might as well not exist.
Valorium
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Byond Username: Valorium
Location: Somewhere, I dunno.

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Valorium » #645606

I used to play a ton of Chemist. I liked that I could casually log in, screw around with the chem dispenser, get some fun grenades or death mixes together and test 'em out (or, depending on my mood, distribute them to security as an "alternative munition"). As soon as fermichem dropped, I became literally unable to participate in the system. Even making basic chems became a completely arcane process, as the wiki I'd previously been able to use quite well to make a handful of fun chems had become entirely useless for anything other than theorycrafting. I have a friend who absolutely ADORES chemistry, and makes ridiculous mixes and nades and all sorts of stuff over on Shiptest, and she found Fermichem to be totally ridiculous. The primary intent of Fermichem seems to be to reduce the ability of Chemists and Medical Doctors to easily powergame massive volumes of gamer chemicals, but between the gating of normal chems and the addition of the frankly absurd inverse chems, the result has been that the powergamers are just as prolific as ever (because they have the time and patience to do so) while most of us casual chemistry peons are left in the dust. Keep the inverse chems, fine, but make them normal recipes and scrap this obnoxious gatekeep of a pH system. Goodness gracious me.
Native Manuellian and Shiptest admin. Ignore me.

Also the author of several drone adventures.
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645633

As far as I can see in this thread, the only arguments opposing the ph system are "the wiki is not accurate" and "I don't want to learn/don't understand fermichem, therefore remove it.". That's ridiculous. First off, this is more of an argument that changes to the game need to have wiki updates included, rather than the system itself being bad, and second off, players being too lazy to learn a system does not mean the system is bad, nor that it needs to be changed or removed. If we want systems removed simply for being more complex than "push button receive powerful explosive/deathchem", then we also need to remove the supermatter, ALL of atmospherics, and Toxins, and we can just reduce this game down to security, medbay, and the greytide, and suddenly we're fucking TGMC deathmatch.

System depth, complexity, and rewarding players for taking the time to learn them is a good thing, especially when this is a game you want people to come back and play for thousands of hours. I'm gonna say it - No, if you don't take the time to learn the very few complex systems we have in this game, you should NOT be able to use the rewards of that system like powerful chemicals or gasses, and other players SHOULD have an advantage over you for taking more time than you to learn the game. Casual players already have plenty of powerful tools at their disposal like batons, eguns, all traitor gear, etc.
Image
Image
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Mothblocks » #645642

I am of the belief that systems should not demand the wiki in order to be used. That is disconnected from the suggestion that wiki should be updated alongside code changes (they should, wiki should be up to date), but I definitely think the wiki being out of date making the system worse is definitely a slight against it. Fermi tried to make it better with the in-game menu but it's still not that great.

Also I generally disagree complexity is a good thing--depth is different.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645646

Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:52 pm I am of the belief that systems should not demand the wiki in order to be used. That is disconnected from the suggestion that wiki should be updated alongside code changes (they should, wiki should be up to date), but I definitely think the wiki being out of date making the system worse is definitely a slight against it. Fermi tried to make it better with the in-game menu but it's still not that great.

Also I generally disagree complexity is a good thing--depth is different.
I think that the game is so complex already that not requiring the wiki for all but the most basic jobs (Read: Cargo) is a completely unreasonable standard that will never be realized, and is very likely harmful to the game due to the likely end result of over-simplification.

Additionally, in order to have a meaningful conversation about this topic, can you please flesh out how complexity and depth are different to you definitionally?
Image
Image
BrianBackslide
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:43 am
Byond Username: BrianBackslide

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by BrianBackslide » #645647

When the majority of reactions can be boiled down to "add sodium" or "add hydrogen", is it really that deep? When you need to have "secret recipes" to get 100% purity, have you done anything other than add an extra step in the chain? What you're calling laziness, I'm calling needless complexity. I should point out here that Fermi doesn't even need to be interacted with if you're making small batches of chem for curing a virus or whatever. It'll get the job done even if it's impure as shit.

If you want depth, then choices need to be there. And not choices like "fail the reaction" versus "don't fail the reaction". I think about how Botany functions when I think of depth. I can act on a tangential way and simply provide food for the chef, or I can say "Oh, my plant rolled sodium, now I can do [x], [y], and [z]." What purpose does pH serve after the reaction is done? What about temperature? It exists only as a gatekeeper to slow down chem because... Reasons? How is it satisfying to make a chem 100% purity when there's no/little benefit to do so unless said chem is required in another reaction. Again, we don't need to interact with the system for small express need batches.

A good gameplay system teaches you as you play it. A deep gameplay system allows you to do more with it as you learn more about it. Fermi does nothing to teach you how to optimize reaction rates or control pH values without wiki/googledoc diving. Neither does it allow you to do more with what you do learn unless you really want to optimize your inverse chems.
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645648

BrianBackslide wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:31 pm When the majority of reactions can be boiled down to "add sodium" or "add hydrogen", is it really that deep? When you need to have "secret recipes" to get 100% purity, have you done anything other than add an extra step in the chain? What you're calling laziness, I'm calling needless complexity. I should point out here that Fermi doesn't even need to be interacted with if you're making small batches of chem for curing a virus or whatever. It'll get the job done even if it's impure as shit.

If you want depth, then choices need to be there. And not choices like "fail the reaction" versus "don't fail the reaction". I think about how Botany functions when I think of depth. I can act on a tangential way and simply provide food for the chef, or I can say "Oh, my plant rolled sodium, now I can do [x], [y], and [z]." What purpose does pH serve after the reaction is done? What about temperature? It exists only as a gatekeeper to slow down chem because... Reasons? How is it satisfying to make a chem 100% purity when there's no/little benefit to do so unless said chem is required in another reaction. Again, we don't need to interact with the system for small express need batches.

A good gameplay system teaches you as you play it. A deep gameplay system allows you to do more with it as you learn more about it. Fermi does nothing to teach you how to optimize reaction rates or control pH values without wiki/googledoc diving. Neither does it allow you to do more with what you do learn unless you really want to optimize your inverse chems.
Purity is very important - depending on the chemical.

For example, let's look at chloral hydrate again - if the chemical is 100% pure, chloral hydrate deals absolutely zero toxin damage until 30.6u has been metabolized, making it absolutely perfect for being a nonlethal option for a chemist with a syringe gun - 2 syringes is 30u injected, meaning their target will be completely unharmed. However, if its not 100% pure, it WILL deal toxin damage and I believe it will not sleep the target as long (this produces chlorolax). This provides the chemist with a meaningful decision about what they want their chemical to do (nonlethal? Some damage? Murderchem? Focus on sleep duration or damage?) And allows plentiful skill expression depending on how experienced they are in chemistry to reach their desired purity level for whatever goal they set for themselves. The chemistry system as it currently is does exactly what you described a good gameplay system should do - it let me do more with it as I learned it. And yes, I DO want to optimize my inverse chems.

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at by asking what purpose things like ph serve after the reaction- it's only relevant to chemical reactions, and doesnt need to be relevant to other systems in the game. And temperature is relevant post reaction - for example, you need to set temperatures for chemical grenades that have ignition temperatures. You can inject yourself with gunpowder for a dead man's switch mechanism combined with a phlogiston pill dental implant. The only things limiting you from using these mechanics outside of immediate chemical reactions is your own lack of imagination.
Image
Image
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Mothblocks » #645651

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:26 pm I think that the game is so complex already that not requiring the wiki for all but the most basic jobs (Read: Cargo) is a completely unreasonable standard that will never be realized, and is very likely harmful to the game due to the likely end result of over-simplification.
It's not an unreasonable standard as I've already been very vocal against new features that don't attempt to teach themselves. I have no interest in keeping arguably the biggest flaw and barrier of entry of SS13 because of history.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:26 pm Additionally, in order to have a meaningful conversation about this topic, can you please flesh out how complexity and depth are different to you definitionally?
To put it really simply, depth is how able you are to express yourself with mechanics. Depth is good.

Complexity is what gets in the way of you expressing yourself. Complexity without purpose is generally bad.

Depth and complexity are often confused for each other, because they often go hand in hand. A lot of deep mechanics are paired with complexity--for instance, Wiremod systems in games (such as circuits) tend to be fairly complex, while being able to provide a lot of depth. However, this is not necessary. There are plenty of ways to create depth without complexity--a new Hearthstone card that helps enable some new deck can add lots of depth while being a simple, understandable addition. The opposite happens too--a lot in SS13 is complex, without providing depth. We have a lot of content, but a lot of it just doesn't extend past basic levels, or doesn't interface with other stuff very cleanly.

This is an extremely common topic in game design, so if you're interested in more, searching "complexity vs depth" should give you a lot of entry level information.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
iain0
In-Game Admin Trainer
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:23 pm
Byond Username: Iain0

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by iain0 » #645654

Yeah, I had a half written post. Here's the recipies for healing chems that I handed out very liberally early on in the fermichem release.

Libital: 10xwater 5xCarbon Hydrogen Welding Chlorine Chlorine -15 40 sodium 20 nitrogen oxygen
Salicyic: 10xwater, 5xWelding/Carbon/Hydrogen/Chlorine Chlorine -15 30xSodium, 15xOxygen/Carbon/Sulphuric
Oxandrolone: 10xWater, 5xHydrogen/Welding/Carbon/Chlorine, 10xHydrogen/Oxygen, 30xCarbon
Aiuri: 15xHydrogen/5xNitrogen, 30xAluminium, 15xHydrogen, 15xSulphuric, 15xHydrogen

These make 50+units pure.

In terms of interactions, once you got this, its a case of having to memorise it. Which is a little harder than the old set of recipies, but after a few hundred hours I can now press all these buttons without thought in order with some ordering and refactoring to make things more efficient. It's kinda wasteful and more tedious but its a solved game, and solving it was not that exciting past the eureka moment of how to 'cheat'.

The 'cabal of knowledge' stuff just comes from the fact the above is different to the wiki, while the wiki is correct, its not actually the 'answer' to making some stuff, the above is "an answer" based on a set of requirements (including purity=1)

But if you dont understand the mechanics (particularly these mechanics aren't the mechanics described on the wiki which leads you through using buffers), or don't care to work them out by hand, then you're just going to do the "World of Warcraft ; whats my talent tree supposed to be set up as" solution and blindly copy the work someone else did who understands it.

Is it fun or interesting? Very very briefly when I realised what the answer was. Even solving all the setups I needed made me want to write a program even just to brute force optimal recipies, because trial, throwing everything away, and improvement, was best done on a private server and not all that exciting. But it only ever needed doing once. Thereafter chemistry is reading instructions from my notepad and pressing the buttons it tells me to. I'm a glorified computer program.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by oranges » #645661

great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by toemas » #645664

oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
try reading the thread!
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645665

oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
we could always go to fetch-quest chemistry and have the chemist steal the odysseus gameplay loop of going around absorbing pre-made chemicals. For example they'd grind an iron sheet to slot in iron on their chem machine, auiri, libital, synthflesh from chemistry, etc and get a useful and at least engaging for an hour shift going.

That might not be perfect and kind of goes back to OLD rnd of creating a meta-strat for all the gamer chems as fast as possible. But its better then what is essentially the exact same Chemistry as before, just with the recipes not listed on the wiki + more reagents required + less of the combined reagent you were looking for gotten.

It made our current issue of chemistry not being engaging even worse because its harder to engage with it positively unless your an 1000 hour gamer who likes solving puzzles (only once though.)
► Show Spoiler
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645666

I think the issue with the ph system isn't so much the system, but rather the lack of clarity regarding how to get desired results. My proposal is this:

Keep chemistry the way it is, but remove default auto-reacting (You can also just checkmark a little box if you know what you're doing and don't want chemical stasis) - all chemicals sit in beakers (but only beakers, not other containers such as glasses or buckets, to still allow ghetto-chem) without reacting (like they currently do in plumbing reaction chambers until all reagents are added) until either you push a little button in the chem dispenser that reacts them, or you use a tool that does it for you (Maybe you need to use a lighter? Or heat up the beaker by any method by 5 degrees). While sitting in a chemical dispenser in this unreacted bluestate state, have the dispenser display the results of the reaction - chemicals, ph, purity, temperature. If the reaction is impure, have a couple of tooltips that offer advice based on the "optimal ph" values in the wiki - if the ph of the reaction is too low, recommend adding small amounts of sodium, too high, recommend adding small amounts of hydrogen, that sort of thing.

This will allow us to keep the depth in the system I mentioned in my prior post, but should make chemical results much less arcane and much more amenable to new players, and solves the problem of the system not teaching you how to use it.
Image
Image
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #645669

BrianBackslide wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:31 pm If you want depth, then choices need to be there. And not choices like "fail the reaction" versus "don't fail the reaction". I think about how Botany functions when I think of depth. I can act on a tangential way and simply provide food for the chef, or I can say "Oh, my plant rolled sodium, now I can do [x], [y], and [z]." What purpose does pH serve after the reaction is done? What about temperature? It exists only as a gatekeeper to slow down chem because... Reasons? How is it satisfying to make a chem 100% purity when there's no/little benefit to do so unless said chem is required in another reaction. Again, we don't need to interact with the system for small express need batches.
True to form, i literally only ever see people make synthflesh because it has a applicable distribution plan in patches, people usually have a plan for what they're going to make (flood the smartfridge with meth-pills being the other one), and the easy dispense of usually gets heavily relied upon even in places where chems are "fixed" of PH because of the loathing of interacting with the system in its current state.

As i understand it, downstreamers are of the opinion that Cobbychemicals are unpopular enough to warrant not touching chemicals, and the intended PH changes are essentially polishing a 💩.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:07 am Purity is very important - depending on the chemical.

For example, let's look at chloral hydrate again - if the chemical is 100% pure, chloral hydrate deals absolutely zero toxin damage until 30.6u has been metabolized, making it absolutely perfect for being a nonlethal option for a chemist with a syringe gun - 2 syringes is 30u injected, meaning their target will be completely unharmed. However, if its not 100% pure, it WILL deal toxin damage and I believe it will not sleep the target as long (this produces chlorolax). This provides the chemist with a meaningful decision about what they want their chemical to do (nonlethal? Some damage? Murderchem? Focus on sleep duration or damage?) And allows plentiful skill expression depending on how experienced they are in chemistry to reach their desired purity level for whatever goal they set for themselves. The chemistry system as it currently is does exactly what you described a good gameplay system should do - it let me do more with it as I learned it. And yes, I DO want to optimize my inverse chems.

The only things limiting you from using these mechanics outside of immediate chemical reactions is your own lack of imagination.
To break into ad-hominen, this arguement sounds personally driven in-nature and your own investment of it appears based on a mastery of a single component rather than discussing or comparing it to previous gameplay loops to assess it as a whole. Why in should players be disadvantaged to create dual reagent container grenades that are set up to fail where the core strength of old chemistry was the ability to make potent effects through combination and essentially imagination?

One of the best recent chemical mixes infact comes from neither system and is just archaic explosive smoke.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Pandarsenic » #645670

oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645671

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:56 amTo break into ad-hominen, this arguement sounds personally driven in-nature and your own investment of it appears based on a mastery of a single component rather than discussing or comparing it to previous gameplay loops to assess it as a whole. Why in should players be disadvantaged to create dual reagent container grenades that are set up to fail where the core strength of old chemistry was the ability to make potent effects through combination and essentially imagination?

One of the best recent chemical mixes infact comes from neither system and is just archaic explosive smoke.
All right. What other gameplay loops or systems do you want it compared to for discussion's sake?
Image
Image
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #645672

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:23 am All right. What other gameplay loops or systems do you want it compared to for discussion's sake?
Atmospherics, sharing more commonality than most things recently with self-autonomous plumbing and "circumstantial mixing" to procure gases or reagents very few people care about or utilize en-masse.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645673

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:33 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:23 am All right. What other gameplay loops or systems do you want it compared to for discussion's sake?
Atmospherics, sharing more commonality than most things recently with self-autonomous plumbing and "circumstantial mixing" to procure gases or reagents very few people care about or utilize en-masse.
Wasn't your point that you wanted to showcase how the ph chemistry system was bad compared to other gameplay loops in the game that were good? How is Chemistry worse than Atmospherics?
Image
Image
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #645674

Atmos is very least functional if self-aggrandizing with titles like "Elder Atmosian" for a role that does 10 minutes of preparation work on a game with a tilescale of 30 mins to simply play itself whilst there are such players that stand around verhemently refuting to acknowledge basic game fact mechanics like corpse plants or that spilling a relevant reagent creates usable moles to expand their setup capabilities.

If i was feeling spiteful, i might even suggest atmospherics goes entirely naturalistic and only gathers oxygen from a simulated holographic biosphere of trees, and that their job is to feed them enough Co2 waste to ensure the cycle is stable so they're engaged all round. Then suggest chemistry would be obliged to help and be next-door to botany, because majority reagent chemicals would come from botany, but we come to accept artificial spontaneous sources for things, so that's that.

Chemists have never nearly been as 'important' so to suddenly have a small minority gatekeep the growingly unknowable and roughly chartable nature of PH chem rubs shoulders with the kind of navel gazing of Goonstation secret sauces. I didn't explicitly say they had to be 'good' or 'quality' loops, but to apply introspection upon itself that a glorified chemistry will be no less interactable than the consistent moaning and barrier to entry surrounding Atmopherics being non intuitive to learn unless you have a Master Blaster high IQ symbiotic twin brother living upon your hulking mass of a frame of a greytider to hold the station at ransom until you turn the power/atmos/chems back on.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645675

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:14 am Atmos is very least functional if self-aggrandizing with titles like "Elder Atmosian" for a role that does 10 minutes of preparation work on a game with a tilescale of 30 mins to simply play itself whilst there are such players that stand around verhemently refuting to acknowledge basic game fact mechanics like corpse plants or that spilling a relevant reagent creates usable moles to expand their setup capabilities.

If i was feeling spiteful, i might even suggest atmospherics goes entirely naturalistic and only gathers oxygen from a simulated holographic biosphere of trees, and that their job is to feed them enough Co2 waste to ensure the cycle is stable so they're engaged all round. Then suggest chemistry would be obliged to help and be next-door to botany, because majority reagent chemicals would come from botany, but we come to accept artificial spontaneous sources for things, so that's that.

Chemists have never nearly been as 'important' so to suddenly have a small minority gatekeep the growingly unknowable and roughly chartable nature of PH chem rubs shoulders with the kind of navel gazing of Goonstation secret sauces. I didn't explicitly say they had to be 'good' or 'quality' loops, but to apply introspection upon itself that a glorified chemistry will be no less interactable than the consistent moaning and barrier to entry surrounding Atmopherics being non intuitive to learn unless you have a Master Blaster high IQ symbiotic twin brother living upon your hulking mass of a frame of a greytider to hold the station at ransom until you turn the power/atmos/chems back on.
What does any of this have to do with basic gameplay loops?

Also, I don't feel like there's some top-secret cabal of chemists hoarding their chemical recipes in order to gatekeep chemistry from the plebian masses. I've never seen anyone ask for a chemical reaction list from someone who would actually have one and be denied, and I myself have taught several people chemistry, and given them the chemical lists I have access to. I feel like the experience you're describing is vastly different from the reality of people in chemistry.
Image
Image
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by oranges » #645690

Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am
oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely
Most of these suggestions are regressions that don't offer alternatives to provide depth.
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Fermichems purity system is really unclear

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #645705

oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:52 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am
oranges wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely
Most of these suggestions are regressions that don't offer alternatives to provide depth.
Can you comment on my proposal then?
Image
Image
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users