/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:52 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely

Most of these suggestions are regressions that don't offer alternatives to provide depth.

Can you comment on my proposal then?

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:10 am

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:52 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely

Most of these suggestions are regressions that don't offer alternatives to provide depth.

Can you comment on my proposal then?

as far as I can see you are simply advocating for the status quo?

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:25 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:10 am

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:52 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:01 am great that you have identified the problem, but none of you are offering solutions

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:54 am If pH doesn't go entirely, it should automatically keep reactions in the right zone in the Dispenser/Heater [by consuming Buffer chems] the way you can have it do [pH management] in plumbing

But also pH should go entirely

Most of these suggestions are regressions that don't offer alternatives to provide depth.

Can you comment on my proposal then?

as far as I can see you are simply advocating for the status quo?

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:44 am I think the issue with the ph system isn't so much the system, but rather the lack of clarity regarding how to get desired results. My proposal is this:

Keep chemistry the way it is, but remove default auto-reacting (You can also just checkmark a little box if you know what you're doing and don't want chemical stasis) - all chemicals sit in beakers (but only beakers, not other containers such as glasses or buckets, to still allow ghetto-chem) without reacting (like they currently do in plumbing reaction chambers until all reagents are added) until either you push a little button in the chem dispenser that reacts them, or you use a tool that does it for you (Maybe you need to use a lighter? Or heat up the beaker by any method by 5 degrees). While sitting in a chemical dispenser in this unreacted bluestate state, have the dispenser display the results of the reaction - chemicals, ph, purity, temperature. If the reaction is impure, have a couple of tooltips that offer advice based on the "optimal ph" values in the wiki - if the ph of the reaction is too low, recommend adding small amounts of sodium, too high, recommend adding small amounts of hydrogen, that sort of thing.

This will allow us to keep the depth in the system I mentioned in my prior post, but should make chemical results much less arcane and much more amenable to new players, and solves the problem of the system not teaching you how to use it.

The best part of chemistry was always ghetto chemistry.

A fun chemistry system should capitalize on this and revolve (partly) around creative sourcing of materials. The interaction with Botany was always a good one and this should have been expanded. Let Chemistry collect and grind items and seperate, store and combine the resulting chemicals. Looking for your taser? Too bad, chemistry ground it up to make sprayable puppies. I dunno, go wild. There should be a mix of helpful and harmful effects for sourced items, a bad example was corn, which was only realistically used to blow stuff up.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68385

We're finally fucking free

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:15 pm https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68385

We're finally fucking free

If I'm reading this correctly, the system change makes it so, say, 20% pure chloral hydrate will only be 20% effective, but will not turn in to viscous sludge any more?

If so, I can live with this change.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:40 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:15 pm https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68385

We're finally fucking free

If I'm reading this correctly, the system change makes it so, say, 20% pure chloral hydrate will only be 20% effective, but will not turn in to viscous sludge any more?

If so, I can live with this change.

Reduced effectiveness is under consideration, but not implemented yet, I believe. There's an eye on purity as an effectiveness ratio in the future, but for now, it's just focused on making chemistry usable without external guides, here and now, by having either the chem you want or the inverse chem, both always at full effectiveness.

In the future, we may get purity-based effectiveness, but for now at least we just don't get "Oh, you didn't put in 50u bromide as a buffer? You fucking idiot, enjoy your isomers"

And it probably won't be "20% as effective" either--0 purity chloral hydrate would still do something. It just wouldn't be as good as pure chloral hydrate, but not so good that people feel obligated to use external sheets again.

fermichem should be renamed spermichem because it makes everyone very salty

i don't think cum is supposed to be salty you should probably tell your buddies to reduce their sodium intake crag

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:09 am i don't think cum is supposed to be salty you should probably tell your buddies to reduce their sodium intake crag

Look at this dummy with his watery ejaculate i bet he's on finasteride

life is not all about smeem crag

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:32 pm And it probably won't be "20% as effective" either--0 purity chloral hydrate would still do something. It just wouldn't be as good as pure chloral hydrate, but not so good that people feel obligated to use external sheets again.

This system even revised still sucks, but almost MORE than it used to, because you don't get a shitty pile of vicious sludge if you use the recipe on the wiki when trying to make oil->ash->multiver

Instead you get oil->ash only if you set it 300 degrees above the reaction tempature->Maybe multiver as long as you clean out your system every now and then, otherwise you've just got purity and PH problems that cause you to not react.

It was a step in the right direction but it is still shit to try to use the wiki.

If purity still has an impact like that on reactions then at this point it's an oversight.

Nabski wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:01 pm

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:32 pm And it probably won't be "20% as effective" either--0 purity chloral hydrate would still do something. It just wouldn't be as good as pure chloral hydrate, but not so good that people feel obligated to use external sheets again.

This system even revised still sucks, but almost MORE than it used to, because you don't get a shitty pile of vicious sludge if you use the recipe on the wiki when trying to make oil->ash->multiver

Instead you get oil->ash only if you set it 300 degrees above the reaction tempature->Maybe multiver as long as you clean out your system every now and then, otherwise you've just got purity and PH problems that cause you to not react.

It was a step in the right direction but it is still shit to try to use the wiki.

This entire quotebox just sucks the life out of me . Fermi was clearly just bad attempt to apply method but also a significant skill issue of wiki dependency makes any method heavy attempt doomed to fail because players are out of tune to learning or practicing ingame method exchanges or doing anything more than addition from a set of infinite chemical supplies which plumbing heavily automates.

When i made the original plastic polymers i spun that entirely from my own research and method to ensure it was viable 'ghetto' or least in the field as well as produced in the lab, requiring proper management of resources, then it got "nerfed" for being too hard, even though it was just two different processes in two different beakers at different temperatures being mixed together (the basics of every chemical grenade ever, the staple of SS13 chemistry), it had to be all pushed into one because of the severe amount of hugboxing both being extremely safe but trying to make everything complex. Which makes me feel strongly about every complaint of fermi-sludge, valid as it is for being a bad system, players rarely engage out of the box thinking nor do coders add enough variable ways for players to utilize ways of thinking because often they don't actually think the systems on the same situational level. (if they do, they often overdo it and add situations that will almost never occur or apply only to their playstyle)

Visionarily, i would just add 'stimulation' by having a harm interaction when standing still (the old intents would be better for this) to shake and simmer the flask inhand, then count this into minor centrifugal activational force versus actual major centrifugal activation force as a activation for effects and mixing, it could be a brand new component, chem grenade type and condition to the previously heat based stabilizing agent for instance. Its been nearly 5 years and you can't shake a can of cola to get bubbles in game.

Honestly, optimal pH affecting reaction speed could be kind of nice, but otherwise I'm just not super enthused about the idea of pH/purity doing anything again...

I probably am super late to this, but delayed reactions makes grenades functions really sad. In this case I was playing with Liquid Dark Matter.

I'm pretty sure "explosive" type reactions are still instant. I haven't had any trouble with LDM during fermi, but I haven't tried it in this new "fermi-lite".

Maybe it's because my further testing was with plumbing reaction chamber rather than a grenade proper. It was actually rather neat because it did the pull but didn't get rid of the chemical (allowing me to heat it again and reactivate it a second time). Normally you would need stabilizing agent for that. Regardless it wasn't instant.

a big fix for the pH system would be if the buffers did not get eaten on reaction (or only after a reaction has come to completion), with an additional buff of things like plumbing sucking up the buffers for reuse vs. throwing them into output.

Perhaps even more interesting would be if we didnt have hard buffers, but a buffer chem that would take on the total pH of the other chems inside the beaker.