/tg/Station 13

Basically, I think those changes were overkill and have created an unhealthy dynamic.

I think they were overkill because an AA leak is not the wildfire it used to be. Someone stealing the spare is much, much less of a deal as it was when everyone could carry an AA ID around.

I believe the unhealthy dynamic is that of mechanically selected acting cap. Personally I believe it is much more interesting for crew to decide themselves who the acting cap is than for a system to do it itself. I think the mechanic deprives RP potential, as in most situations - from what I've observed - the matter is automatically resolved and most people just accept that person as acting cap. I also think this causes some of the complaints with antag acting caps being too powerful. When you allow people to decide themselves, there will be disagreements, and I think that's more interesting gameplay.

Thoughts?

Agreed. It softlocks RP and gives more authority to players that can spawn in subverted

Hmm, how do you envisage this working?

In my experience on the lower pop stations that tend to lack command/acting captain right now the spare ID has a pretty good habbit of going to the first tider to breach the bridge and hit up the comms console, though I do have to educate people about this lesser known mechanic from time to time. A lot of the time the actual people who "do the jobs" and run the station are busier doing their jobs than caring to shift start tide a uniquely powerful item. At higher pops this might result in some kinda blood bath, with no-one being particularly in the right or wrong in their claim to power? Unless we're implementing a mechanical solution for voting or something (?). Ultimately the gold ID is a very important resource for running the station too, particularly on lower population, in terms of game flow its much more useful that someone has access to the engine room and stuff without having to hack into everything to set up power, and i'd much rather (as an admin) see the gold ID go to someone who will take some level of care of the station, ensure things are running, consider calling the shuttle, than upgrading some spear wielding greytider to having captains gloves and laser guns round start and still doing nothing of value (probably hugely valid hunting, what else do people do once they've stolen all their gamer gear and are far more armed than their opponents?)

I'm not sure something that will be resolved at round start before any antag related information is remotely available to the crew will resolve in an "interesting" way ; there's no way to make an informed decision at this point (other than basically popularity contest / metafriending) so it'll be whoever is loudest or most forceful or just outright most violent (or sec will claim its their right as the only trustable party and perhaps enforce this).

Or the flip case where no-one wants to do it (cries of pain from command occasionally happens at round start when they realise they got two job).



I also think the issue with antag acting captains isn't one of access as much as authorisation ; inspite of the number of changes to windows, door wires and whatever else it's pretty trivial to break into any area on the station, to the point that its often faster to just break in than even ask the AI to open the door, the issue is more that the captain can go anywhere, and you dont really get to demand of them 'why are you here and what are you doing exactly', the captain can go anywhere and do anything and the only person who can reasonably hold them accountable is the HOS, moving against the captain is a much bigger step to take than moving against a normal crew member. The captain can walk into upload and zero effort subvert every silicon on the station at any time and generally this is considered a captain's right. Can walk into armoury and walk out with whatever they like, no-one has the authority to challenge them over this.

Maybe there isn't even anything mechanical in all this, it's just the nature of the position its self, and it also really trivialises the work and risk of any antag.

Also democracy blows and tends to make poor choices, and while thats perhaps intended in your design but I would imagine the metacliques of tiders being able to dominate here, through democracy or force, while currently at least it goes to someone who picks command and thus has some intention of playing that sort of role.

What about command role bans? Just administrative policy to tell people they're not permitted to apply / obtain the card? Or does acting captain have lesser standards than people rolling head of staff?

this makes me wish captain overflow was a thing so we could test out this theory

It is

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 12:09 pm this makes me wish captain overflow was a thing so we could test out this theory

It is, i made it so

You could have every head of staff start with a code for the safe, and no-one made acting cap. That way there's still rp between heads but the spare isnt going to the tide

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the spare going to the tide or a quick-thinking antagonist because the bureaucratic heads of staff were too busy twiddling thumbs. It is both thematic and good for gameplay if it doesn't happen all the time.

The AA rush speedrunners were some of the most obnoxious and annoying players we had. That's pretty much what an open AA card enabled. Whatever prevents those idiots from doing their shit is a positive for the games health and especially command/security sanity.

If you want to topple authority, do it the old fashioned way. You can't possibly tell me that someone getting that AA currently is anything more than turning themselves into a target for security due to the general risk they pose, and ostensibly just making the conflict of the round all about them. Since this wasn't something done exclusively by antagonists, it was more or less an opportunity for players to act out without the big bad grief role.

i think the access changes in general were complete overkill

i miss the times where i got to yell at a hop for leaving their computer logged in. now they can leave their computer logged in... and what? some tider is going to get engineering access? lol. lmao, even.

i do agree that AA leaking was annoying though. but it's about time we made it so cards can carry more wildcards, and at the very least allow normal cards to be head cards/stock HoP offices with silver cards (only meta/delta has spare silvers!)

Hear me out, what if we just... didn't have a spare ID at all?
Why is it necessary?

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 2:12 pm You could have every head of staff start with a code for the safe, and no-one made acting cap. That way there's still rp between heads but the spare isnt going to the tide

This is a good idea that might address some of iains (valid) concerns.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 9:06 pm Hear me out, what if we just... didn't have a spare ID at all?
Why is it necessary?

1. It spreading and causing chaos (though not everyone-has-AA-chaos that it was before) is fun
2. Rounds without head of staff need someone to call the shuttle
3. Rounds without a captain or HoP should have someone be able to promote
4. Having a traitor with AA can be fun if the person isn't boring/the objectives aren't guiding them down a boring path

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 8:48 pm i think the access changes in general were complete overkill

i miss the times where i got to yell at a hop for leaving their computer logged in. now they can leave their computer logged in... and what? some tider is going to get engineering access? lol. lmao, even.

i do agree that AA leaking was annoying though. but it's about time we made it so cards can carry more wildcards, and at the very least allow normal cards to be head cards/stock HoP offices with silver cards (only meta/delta has spare silvers!)

I think the Captain has the only spare silvers on the other maps?

I also have some opinions on the too-low Wildcard Access count, especially for Agent IDs.

But in terms of the safe itself, it's far too secure and the station needs fewer padded walls.

When the computer is logged in I take a paramedic ID and get essentially all access

True Gamers know that Paramedic is common ID allaccess and HOP is Silver ID allaccess

Honestly, also outside of topic scope, but I don't feel like I've been super impressed with how Trim IDs (or whatever that ID rework is called) has turned out long-term.

What if we just bwoinked people who's only gimmick as a tider was to steal AA round start? Once in a while is ok but every round i would personally slap them.