/tg/Station 13

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66927
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66926
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67181

this is stupid. everyone is over this stuff and it's not just goof, his are just by far and above the worst. stop deleting things (entire antags at a time) and making things inaccessible, more difficult and more awful fnr. this game is supposed to be fun with great room for creativity, not for weirdos to force me to bar rp.

but this can't be trolling because it's all been coded and actually done?

I think if it's not game-breaking or so good as to be abused every round, it doesn't need to be removed.

No one is going to hug 10 animals roundstart to powergame a moodboost. On the offchance someone does, that's funny and no one cares. It affects almost nothing except that person's enjoyment.

anyone who knows about mood is abusing holopets this one is valid lol i have gotten positive mood as a hulk by using this

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 5:59 pm anyone who knows about mood is abusing holopets this one is valid lol i have gotten positive mood as a hulk by using this

I don't do this because I'm not a bug abuser.
Just sit under a shower for a second and don't let yourself get hungry, you'll be fine.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 5:51 pm It affects almost nothing except that person's enjoyment.

I think it mostly just makes the coders angry because people are bypassing their carefully crafted systems.

Also the silver slime and belt changes make perfect sense, and the batong has been too powerful for a while and has already been discussed to death and I don't want to get into it again.

In every game ever the players find optimal ways to take advantage of the system. It only needs intervention from the coders (in nerfs and balance-changes) if it completely takes over the meta and breaks the mechanic entirely. I've known about mood for years but it never occurred to me to hug all the holodeck animals, and I won't do it even now that I know about it because that's just too extra for what can be done in a quick shower and eating food.

For instance the double-baton tech - that broke the stun meta very badly and deserved to be removed. Autorifles in retrospect arguably also broke the ranged weapon meta, since you could store hundreds of shots in a box and never need to recharge.

Bats no longer hardstunning and being inescapable was a good balance change, because it completely broke melee combat in many situations.

But there are lots of other changes which nerfed something that never really broke anything to begin with. Cap modsuit having lower armor than a vest - the captain being heavily armed and EVA-proof, with a slowdown, is not game-breaking in the slightest. Same goes for HoS. Slowdown is a big tradeoff for armor and this was unnecessary.

IDs only being able to have two extra pieces of access added to them, indirectly rendering agent IDs useless. Although global AA was broken, this is an over-correction by any measure.

Insulated gloves not being able to shoot guns. It wasn't an issue that insuls were a "hard upgrade" from normal gloves, because normal gloves had no mechanic to begin with. Being able to hack and fire guns without taking your gloves off first isn't game-breaking, it's just something that makes things less tedious.

Hooch no longer healing assistants. It was justified with "assistants shouldn't have advantages over other jobs." But if you actually look at the gameplay, it caused no problem, it didn't allow assistants any powergaming wombo combos, it just provided a slow but convenient heal without using medikits.

I could go on, but many of these bad nerfs and balance changes simply add tedium which experienced players will quickly adapt to and add to their repertoire. Keep insuls in your toolbelt from now on, quick swap to hack. Make some quick healing meds instead of trolling maint for hooch. Loot corpse IDs or create multiple for ghetto AA. Get pressure adaptation and drink coffee to keep your armor in space. Players will continue to find workarounds, whether or not they are tedious, and coders haven't done a great job in deciding what's really in need of a balance change IMO. Tedium is not fun and restricted player agency for balance reasons, if that agency doesn't actually break anything, harms the game.

It really isn't a bug. It's an intended feature. I was told as much when moodlets was much much more annoying. Think space drug effects for focusing on your job and not doing the mood tasks

It's a revert back to that and you quickly realize there are little ways to get a positive moodlets without it being a literal task list

The game isn't going to be ruined from PRs that remove controversial content. Things change, and so should you.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:08 am The game isn't going to be ruined from PRs that remove controversial content. Things change, and so should you.

????????????

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:08 am The game isn't going to be ruined from PRs that remove controversial content. Things change, and so should you.

Yeah im coping now

The proverbial wheel keeps getting reinvented.

At this point with all of these barriers to actually accessing job content (Power failure, moodlet management, hunger and satiety management) I'm wondering if job content is actually what maintainers want players to be doing.. Is it just background world-building for RP now? A space office setting?

Not fun at all.

I'm angry, upset and I feel like the gameplay direction has very recently gone out of whack. As the saying goes, too many cooks spoil the broth and I'm not sure what type of dish this game wants to be anymore.

Honestly, I'm just here being a Boomer yelling at the clouds about how back in my day we didn't have all these MECHANICS giving you chores and getting in the way of roleplay.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 3:29 am Honestly, I'm just here being a Boomer yelling at the clouds about how back in my day we didn't have all these MECHANICS giving you chores and getting in the way of roleplay.

remember hygiene?

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 6:33 pm Hooch no longer healing assistants. It was justified with "assistants shouldn't have advantages over other jobs." But if you actually look at the gameplay, it caused no problem, it didn't allow assistants any powergaming wombo combos, it just provided a slow but convenient heal without using medikits.

I could go on, but many of these bad nerfs and balance changes simply add tedium which experienced players will quickly adapt to and add to their repertoire. Keep insuls in your toolbelt from now on, quick swap to hack. Make some quick healing meds instead of trolling maint for hooch. Loot corpse IDs or create multiple for ghetto AA. Get pressure adaptation and drink coffee to keep your armor in space. Players will continue to find workarounds, whether or not they are tedious, and coders haven't done a great job in deciding what's really in need of a balance change IMO. Tedium is not fun and restricted player agency for balance reasons, if that agency doesn't actually break anything, harms the game.

I can't claim this goal applies to more people then me, but systems in the game should try to put you in the mind of your character, so both of you "want" the same thing at the same time.
Dying to a plasmafire is amazing rp, because neither component wants to die really. Etc. That's perhaps a bit offtopic tho.
I don't like it when people do things for meta reasons, smells funky. Maybe I'm just weird tho. I like corpse looting, or coffee stunts, or hell getting meds. Those results seem fine.
Balance is a meme anyway

Regardless of all that, it's hilarious to me that you'd bring up hooch, since your ban appeal was what spurred it being removed.
Most of this stuff gets removed because people are cringe with it, or it invalidates some system that's potentially interesting. Most

Also yes

I'm trolling

*links an exploit*
mods. this is removing fun.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 7:44 am Regardless of all that, it's hilarious to me that you'd bring up hooch, since your ban appeal was what spurred it being removed.
[...]
Most of this stuff gets removed because people are cringe with it, or it invalidates some system that's potentially interesting. Most

Right, as well as spear crafting. But the reason I didn't bring up the spear crafting nerf is because the appeal video did show something that was arguably a balance issue - being able to craft multiple spears instantly and spam throw them at people. The hooch actually wasn't even used in the video to any real effect, I think I sipped it shortly before dying while running away.

Some assistant getting noted with hooch in their pocket doesn't mean hooch should be nerfed. Livrah doing a funny ling gimmick turning people into glass golems and breaking them doesn't mean there's a balance issue with lings. These are all just fun little things people find. Occasionally there's a few players that take interest in something and do it every round without fail, and get it nerfed, but the nerf should be more holistic than just looking at someone being cringe with it for a while.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 6:21 am

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 3:29 am Honestly, I'm just here being a Boomer yelling at the clouds about how back in my day we didn't have all these MECHANICS giving you chores and getting in the way of roleplay.

remember hygiene?

Thankfully no, it was introduced and fucked off while I was on my long hiatus, but I hear it was genuinely awful

these dudes just admitted to removing hooch out of spite because of a classic, soulful engineering scuffle. a single instance, all they do is whinge about "greys", just a little tussle. the kind that makes you nostalgic to think about in years time, and brings you back to the game

this sucks man take me back

lemon wasn't involved in a single aspect of that pr

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 6:04 pm Also the silver slime ~context snip~ changes make perfect sense.

I can't really wade very much into it on my lack of git/server access, but it was perfectly fine for years if maybe filler content opposed to making it some sort of 'breakfast/cake' themed slime, but a viewpoint I take is hamfisted adjacency 'tweaks' is just backseat driving from not a viewpoint of player perspective convenience, as if the stereotypical xeno scientist is obliged to undergo a race-change to non roundstart slimeperson. The offered reason is a poorly visualised half rant about them stealing work from a unrelated department usually many rooms away.

Fikou wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:22 am *links an exploit*
mods. this is removing fun.

that was actually a copypaste mistake and i removed it from the op

massa wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:53 pm these dudes just admitted to removing hooch out of spite because of a classic, soulful engineering scuffle. a single instance, all they do is whinge about "greys", just a little tussle. the kind that makes you nostalgic to think about in years time, and brings you back to the game

this sucks man take me back

I was honestly just spitballing my own opinions. I think the pr initially got made because goof saw the video, thought it was cringe, and took it as a chance to nerf assistants.
Then roh decided they didn't like giving assistants mechanical upside to being assistants, and it got merged.

That video's still moronic tho, local man is incapable of speaking words.

FantasticFwoosh wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 2:04 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 6:04 pm Also the silver slime ~context snip~ changes make perfect sense.

I can't really wade very much into it on my lack of git/server access, but it was perfectly fine for years if maybe filler content opposed to making it some sort of 'breakfast/cake' themed slime, but a viewpoint I take is hamfisted adjacency 'tweaks' is just backseat driving from not a viewpoint of player perspective convenience, as if the stereotypical xeno scientist is obliged to undergo a race-change to non roundstart slimeperson. The offered reason is a poorly visualised half rant about them stealing work from a unrelated department usually many rooms away.

► Show Spoiler

1) Other departments have food procurement services, you can bake pizzas in botany out of grown raw materials or import them from cargo and these do not negatively affect the kitchen productivity as food distribution & creation area.

---

2) This coincides with the table eating PR within the same design sphere, Goof in this instance should stop trying to shoulder Oranges job as design lead in altering so many related areas at once without a mandate.

---

3) unique produce like out of season candy-treats and botanical plants are now tainted by this proposed change, this could have been the subject of some revision as like other slime products (gold core mob-pool) in more personalised alternative development or design lead oversight by Oranges.

I wish xenobio stuff got moved over to other departments. But seeing how cytology is kind of RNGESUS HAVE MERCY i don't think it'll happen without whatever old-slime stuff your trying to get being way way way up the time-gated ceiling.

Imagine typing in a game about clicking

massa wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 4:14 pm

Fikou wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:22 am *links an exploit*
mods. this is removing fun.

that was actually a copypaste mistake and i removed it from the op

thanks babe :*

we do a miniscule amount of trolling, I was thinking of removing the whetstone from chef because there is no reason they should have one...

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66927

This hasn't even been implemented yet (it's still a draft) but it makes perfect sense, you shouldn't be able to stack belts in your backpack just to get free inventory space.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66926

This is fine, it's another example of people whining because something they're used to having that's hilariously busted in practice is getting nerfed. Extended batons weren't even meant to be put in backpacks that I know of and stun batons are still quite powerful. What's the point in having them lose charge when they hit someone when you can just put a bunch in your backpack?

Something a lot of people are missing is that people are starting to kind of "solve" SS13 as a game. They're figuring out what is and isn't the objective best way to fight things, catch criminals, etc. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but SS13's not a combat simulator or a fighting game, it's a roleplaying game. We need to be making changes around that and not around peoples' mistaken perception of what the game is about.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67181

Willard explained this better in the PR, tl;dr is that jobs shouldn't be doing other peoples' jobs for them.

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 3:39 pm

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66927

-snip-
This hasn't even been implemented yet (it's still a draft) but it makes perfect sense, you shouldn't be able to stack belts in your backpack just to get free inventory space.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66926

-snip-
This is fine, it's another example of people whining because something they're used to having that's hilariously busted in practice is getting nerfed.
SS13's not a combat simulator or a fighting game, it's a roleplaying game.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67181

-snip-
Willard explained this better in the PR, tl;dr is that jobs shouldn't be doing other peoples' jobs for them.

Vekter if you removed antags and random events from your equation everything you said would be perfect

But add them to the equation and you need people to do other peoples jobs for them. You need ways to fight and combat others, and you need to survive.

Its a survival sim at its core. Roleplay just adds a layer of depth to it.

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:05 pm Vekter if you removed antags and random events from your equation everything you said would be perfect

But add them to the equation and you need people to do other peoples jobs for them. You need ways to fight and combat others, and you need to survive.

Its a survival sim at its core. Roleplay just adds a layer of depth to it.

if this game was a survival sim at it's core we wouldn't have rules explicitly stating that you die sometimes and that this is a roleplaying game
I hate people saying "BRO THIS IS A SURVIVAL GAME" or "BRO VALIDHUNTING IS LITERALLY WHAT I PLAY FOR"
you are playing a roleplaying game do not be shocked when people expect you to roleplay

no its a game about surviving at all costs and the human will to triumph if u willingly allow yourself to die ur a cuck

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:16 pm

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:05 pm Vekter if you removed antags and random events from your equation everything you said would be perfect

But add them to the equation and you need people to do other peoples jobs for them. You need ways to fight and combat others, and you need to survive.

Its a survival sim at its core. Roleplay just adds a layer of depth to it.

if this game was a survival sim at it's core we wouldn't have rules explicitly stating that you die sometimes and that this is a roleplaying game
I hate people saying "BRO THIS IS A SURVIVAL GAME" or "BRO VALIDHUNTING IS LITERALLY WHAT I PLAY FOR"
you are playing a roleplaying game do not be shocked when people expect you to roleplay

Thankfully you do not have to take my word alone for it.

We're having a very similar thread to one prior about nerfing the amount of manuel antag spawns. Here's what one of the current /tg/station design leads has to say about that.

RP is great and good. I enjoy when sec doesn't turn me horizontal and nor do the antags. But we need ways to mitigate when jobs fail. Like power from xenobio, botany, or maint power generators. Same for other healing methods when medical fails, and other eatery methods when cook fails.

Just as we need weapons and the ability to hide those weapons when sec fails. We can and DO rp around these failings. Thank you.

I don't think me and ODP disagree from the looks of it, FWIW. SS13 is a game about surviving in the sense that if you're only playing the game to do your job, then you're not creating an interesting story. Trying to survive is the means to creating interesting stories--that's also why I mention dying for the sake of the story in that post!

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:05 pm Its a survival sim at its core. Roleplay just adds a layer of depth to it.

As someone who's been involved in this game since 2010, I can safely say you are incorrect. This is the hottest take I've read all week and it's equally wrong.

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 3:39 pm Something a lot of people are missing is that people are starting to kind of "solve" SS13 as a game. They're figuring out what is and isn't the objective best way to fight things, catch criminals, etc. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but SS13's not a combat simulator or a fighting game, it's a roleplaying game. We need to be making changes around that and not around peoples' mistaken perception of what the game is about.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67181

Willard explained this better in the PR, tl;dr is that jobs shouldn't be doing other peoples' jobs for them.

Do you seriously think that "a lot of people" don't know that there is a meta?

Rohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 10:06 pm Do you seriously think that "a lot of people" don't know that there is a meta?

I mean, given how many people bitch incessantly when we change literally anything about combat, yes.

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 9:13 pm

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:05 pm Its a survival sim at its core. Roleplay just adds a layer of depth to it.

As someone who's been involved in this game since 2010, I can safely say you are incorrect. This is the hottest take I've read all week and it's equally wrong.

how have you been playing since 2010 and come to the conclusion that this game is about anything other than valids and loot, with a thin layer of "roleplay" (really just reacting in-character) stretched over the top? and this isn't even a bad thing. there's just always been this futile janny spin trying to obfuscate it.

and i would like it if it functioned more like mafia or among us but the way it's always been designed the person with the most mechanical mastery and best gamer gear will win, roleplay be damned. and obviously combat and roleplay are inherently at odds with each other, because you can't type while you're trying not to die

what a shitty thread