Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

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delaron
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Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by delaron » #646298

Given heads of staff have elevated privileges and access should there be less chance of rolling antag as them? I'm not advocating complete removal but seeing rounds with 3 of the 4 antags all heads of staff (RD, CMO, CE) seems to miss the point. Its easy to kill your own pet or bug your own office. What's your thought on a system to make their antag roll chance lower?
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terranaut
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by terranaut » #646299

give them harder objectives instead
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #646300

Can you give an explanation of how this would even work? Because antag rolls before command, because the players all want to play antag. Literally nobody would support changing roll order.
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by iwishforducks » #646301

antag rolls -> roll "infiltration" value from 1-100 -> if you have a high enough of an infiltration value, then add heads of staff to the pool of jobs you can roll -> roll jobs
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Shadowflame909 » #646302

100 infiltration should be captain/sec antag
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #646304

iwishforducks wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:23 pm antag rolls -> roll "infiltration" value from 1-100 -> if you have a high enough of an infiltration value, then add heads of staff to the pool of jobs you can roll -> roll jobs
Yeah I can work with this, depending on the proposed values.
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terranaut
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by terranaut » #646306

proposal:
"antag rolls -> roll "infiltration" value from 1-100 -> if you have a high enough of an infiltration value, then add heads of staff to the pool of jobs you can roll -> roll jobs"
result:
overall weaker antag presence, more boring gameplay and story

what it should be
roll antag -> roll job -> add difficulty modifier for objectives based on job -> roll objectives
result:
more powerful antags having to do more flashy/risky objectives, more exciting gameplay and story

hope this helps
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Shadowflame909 » #646309

terranaut wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:28 pm what it should be
roll antag -> roll job -> add difficulty modifier for objectives based on job -> roll objectives
result:
more powerful antags having to do more flashy/risky objectives, more exciting gameplay and story

hope this helps
Easy(ier) way to do this would be if you roll head of staff antag. It locks your assassination/kidnapping objective targets to being Sec/ other Head of Staff
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Mothblocks
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Mothblocks » #646311

No to less head of staff antags, yes to different/harder objectives--this was brought up as the solution at the last community meeting as well
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Pandarsenic » #646322

Holding a gold ID should prevent you from being able to roll late antag, if that's not too hard to implement.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by HeyHey » #646872

No for the same reason non maint access roles don't have a higher chance to roll antagonist. Heads of Staff being potential traitors adds to the paranoia of SS13. What should be nerfed is objectives that are too easy for a role ex killing your own pet.
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by waterfleainc » #651880

yes :donut2:
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by oranges » #651997

Unless you have data to prove this is a problem beyond a small percentage of rounds or a lowpop only issue I don't really see the point in implementing this?

The antagonist choosing system is already extremely complex and making it more complex to iron out a single edge case is just asking for bugs.
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Pandarsenic » #652371

oranges wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:23 am Unless you have data to prove this is a problem beyond a small percentage of rounds or a lowpop only issue I don't really see the point in implementing this?

The antagonist choosing system is already extremely complex and making it more complex to iron out a single edge case is just asking for bugs.
It's a disproportionately large problem on lowpop because of the odds of the Acting Captain being a roundstart or late-activation traitor are very high (well above 50%, in my anecdotal estimate, within rounds at 7 players or lower)
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by oranges » #652380

anedoctal spanicdoteal, collect antag distribution information, prove it's a problem, otherwise we're making a shitty code function far worse for some supposed anecdata
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Pandarsenic » #652389

oranges wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:29 am anedoctal spanicdoteal, collect antag distribution information, prove it's a problem, otherwise we're making a shitty code function far worse for some supposed anecdata
Conditions
+ roundstart crew of 7 or fewer
+ at least one roundstart head of staff
+ took place on or after 2022-06-01 (starting with 184219 and continuing to present)

Results
In 5 rounds with 3 heads, there were
- 2 rounds with 2 antag heads
- 2 rounds with 1 antag heads
- 1 round with 0 antag heads (20%)

In 50 rounds with 2 heads, there were
- 6 rounds with 2 antag heads
- 29 rounds with 1 antag head
- 15 rounds with 0 antag heads (30%)

In 555 rounds with 1 head, there were
- 260 rounds with 1 antag head
- 295 rounds with 0 antag heads (53.2%)

0 Antag Heads: 311 rounds of 610, or 50.98%
1+ Antag Heads: 299 rounds of 610, or 49.02%

Average number of antag heads (counting multiples in a single round) was 50.33% in total.

Note that this does not account for heads of security or captains being unable to roll antag, nor does it include latejoin or late threat antag heads.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by oranges » #652591

thank you for collecting the data, on that basis I would agree with you that 50% of low pop rounds having a head antag is too many, and we should look at a change.


I intially considered just preventing heads being antags at lowpop, but I worry that would disincentive people to play head during lowpop rounds

then again, reducing the threat weighting does basically the same, so perhaps either approach is fine.

either way i'm happy to approve a change.
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by TheFinalPotato » #652789

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:09 am Conditions
+ roundstart crew of 7 or fewer
+ at least one roundstart head of staff

0 Antag Heads: 311 rounds of 610, or 50.98%
1+ Antag Heads: 299 rounds of 610, or 49.02%
These numbers can be slightly deceptive, since it's not 50% of all lowpop rounds, but 50% of all lowpop rounds with heads in them. Source, I pulled the data.
I'm not sure if this really changes anything tho. Just wanted to point out how evil the concept of stats is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by Pandarsenic » #652792

TheFinalPotato wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:04 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:09 am Conditions
+ roundstart crew of 7 or fewer
+ at least one roundstart head of staff (emphasis added in quote)

0 Antag Heads: 311 rounds of 610, or 50.98%
1+ Antag Heads: 299 rounds of 610, or 49.02%
These numbers can be slightly deceptive, since it's not 50% of all lowpop rounds, but 50% of all lowpop rounds with heads in them. Source, I pulled the data.
I'm not sure if this really changes anything tho. Just wanted to point out how evil the concept of stats is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I was very explicit that this is skipping 0-head rounds, because, well, obviously there are 0 head antags in rounds with 0 heads because we've failed one of the prerequisite conditions there
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by iamgoofball » #652794

note that mothblocks is currently blocking changes to heads of staff and antagonists in all forms, we'll need ninjanomnom to get a 2/3rds majority to bypass mothblocks on this one
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Re: Should Heads of Staff have reduced weight for Antag Roles

Post by TheFinalPotato » #652805

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:41 am
TheFinalPotato wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:04 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:09 am Conditions
+ roundstart crew of 7 or fewer
+ at least one roundstart head of staff (emphasis added in quote)

0 Antag Heads: 311 rounds of 610, or 50.98%
1+ Antag Heads: 299 rounds of 610, or 49.02%
These numbers can be slightly deceptive, since it's not 50% of all lowpop rounds, but 50% of all lowpop rounds with heads in them. Source, I pulled the data.
I'm not sure if this really changes anything tho. Just wanted to point out how evil the concept of stats is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I was very explicit that this is skipping 0-head rounds, because, well, obviously there are 0 head antags in rounds with 0 heads because we've failed one of the prerequisite conditions there
I ain't talking about you, I'm just making that aspect clear cause it's easy to miss.
It's not your fault at all, you did nothing wrong. It's just how the concept is processed. See oranges's response and all.
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
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