/tg/Station 13

I think stasis beds as a concept are flawed. They take away to most thrilling aspect of our medicine system namely the time pressure. There are already plenty of medicines or methods you can use to stabilise a patients, the sleeper just makes everything non-urgent.

Please don't make the "dead corpse sitting in medbay" simulator any worse than it is currently.

There is epinephrine, defibs, cpr, plenty of stuff you can already use to prevent someone in crit dying.

1000 percent disagree. It's so easy to have organs rot, and it takes too long to replace them. This will turn a mass bombing/murderbone spree into even more of an unfixable nightmare. Even though it already is.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:23 pm There is epinephrine, defibs, cpr, plenty of stuff you can already use to prevent someone in crit dying.

You do understand the reason people like stasis beds is mostly because they prevent organ decay right?

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:31 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:23 pm There is epinephrine, defibs, cpr, plenty of stuff you can already use to prevent someone in crit dying.

You do understand the reason people like stasis beds is mostly because they prevent organ decay right?

So tweak the organ decay rates to be more reasonable.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:53 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:31 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:23 pm There is epinephrine, defibs, cpr, plenty of stuff you can already use to prevent someone in crit dying.

You do understand the reason people like stasis beds is mostly because they prevent organ decay right?

So tweak the organ decay rates to be more reasonable.

I await your pull request with bated breath.

It's nice to not need an IV drip anytime you're doing surgery but also yeah, fuck organ decay.

I think there should be a reason to bring patients/corpses to medbay as fast as possible. Stasis beds work towards that goal. After all, why waste time going to medbay if it won't prevent patient death or organ decay? Just treat them anywhere. Not to mention, this incentive to bring people to medbay quickly makes the paramedic job even more fast-paced and exciting.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:31 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:23 pm There is epinephrine, defibs, cpr, plenty of stuff you can already use to prevent someone in crit dying.

You do understand the reason people like stasis beds is mostly because they prevent organ decay right?

Also stopping people who are full of lacerations bleeding out (a race against time that you're likely to lose, if not with the closing, then the suffocation its self).

Also stopping people with insane reagents in them from just speed dying on you or saving their liver while you work on the REALLY EXCITING NEWBLOOD FILTERING SURGERY (did the auto repeat get disabled on this tool? much sad. also its a linear filter now not one that purged more the more contamination there was, it's super dull relatively now and click intensive, and while it was dull before, at least you could just let it auto-ping until the numbers were low then let them metabolise it off, or multiver). And yeah, generally blood filtering is a bad idea anyway, but you still need some actual time to work on the issue.

Also good during heart attacks, and certain fatal diseases.

Probably a ton of other more niche cases too, but there's a lot to a stasis bed, and why people who think that some problem is fixed by trying to force people away from stasis beds don't get much in the way of positive feedback ; until you solve the reasonable lack of alternative options for many cases that doesn't require building 5 more different chemicals shift start then you're really just making things worse.

I think medical is very very well balanced, other than genuinely lamenting dumb radiation rather than it being a good set of tricks to teach new medics. Leave medical alone

The entire point is that the stasis beds trivialize all those things by not making any medical affliction urgent ever.

Medical is always urgent, you're holding up another player. Doubly so if there's a queue. Having the player die simply because its not practical to deal with some of the above examples in time isn't improving much, just making it take longer generally.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:58 pm The entire point is that the stasis beds trivialize all those things by not making any medical affliction urgent ever.

There's at most two in any medbay and usually upon anything happening that wasn't a single attacker getting taken down by the mob in ten seconds, that's not enough and you still need to do triage.

you say that like there's any time pressure on a server with no permadeath.

A doctor not treating you because all your organs are rotted so they skip to the more easier revivable body is permadeath gamer.

Especially when they have to make that choice during a shuttle call

confused rock wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:38 am you say that like there's any time pressure on a server with no permadeath.

There clearly IS permadeath, just not as a result of time pressure in medical.

And if you think that should be a thing I'ma downvote you both as a player and as an admin. The ammount of insane screeching generated by borgs who take more than two seconds to do a law 2 or, god help them, have to ahelp to find out where state laws is, is already quite crazy. I dread to imagine how much of a shit show things would be IC and OOC when people start having time limits on revival. Like "omfg that doctor literally stood in the corner of the room for 30 seconds not fixing my body and now i'm DEAD FOREVERRRRRR BAN THEY". Mean while the doctor just went for an RL piss because, ya know, RL.

your opinion means nothing to me

And yours to us.

the epinephrine pens that everyone has in their internals boxes have enough formaldehyde to prevent organ decay when used on any corpse

The medbay should receive points relative to the amount of damage they’ve healed on mobs with clients. They should then be able to use these points to upgrade the medbay with things like more stasis beds.

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:36 pm The medbay should receive points relative to the amount of damage they’ve healed on mobs with clients. They should then be able to use these points to upgrade the medbay with things like more stasis beds.

I don't think you will like it when medbay starts cutting off your limbs so they can heal them back up for points.

This is a very bad idea. The fun in medbay is triage and it is in an extremely good place right now

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:36 pm The medbay should receive points relative to the amount of damage they’ve healed on mobs with clients. They should then be able to use these points to upgrade the medbay with things like more stasis beds.

Throwback to the short lived meta of becoming a legendary doctor by performing wound tending surgery on someone actively on fire.

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:20 pm Please don't make the "dead corpse sitting in medbay" simulator any worse than it is currently.

Amatuers still wont learn to check in on their longer term patients in nearly 10 years of SS13 total of this problem, imagine having to suspend and heal people in cyro-tubes, but if you bust them out of there before they're ready they still slop into a decomposed organ mess. I get it has to be like because everything is connected and a natural limit before the brain (being essentially the hub of the player's usable soul) goes bad, but this but lazy-medbay equipment creates lazy players.


^ Feat, Johnson being locked in a depowered cryotube while medbay evacuate to stand in escape for 20 minutes waiting for the shuttle rather than heal people.

you can press B to escape cryo tubes

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:07 am

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:36 pm The medbay should receive points relative to the amount of damage they’ve healed on mobs with clients. They should then be able to use these points to upgrade the medbay with things like more stasis beds.

I don't think you will like it when medbay starts cutting off your limbs so they can heal them back up for points.

Obviously I already thought about exploits like this before making the suggestion and obviously I wouldn’t have made the fucking suggestion if it wasn’t possible to write code that prevents things like this.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:42 pm This is a very bad idea. The fun in medbay is triage and it is in an extremely good place right now

Your personal idea of fun is irrelevant. Medbay can’t keep up with bodies and everybody has to sit out as a result. It’s not fun for everybody else, it leads to stagnant rounds and it’s bad for the health of the server. We shouldn’t be balancing the game around the whims of a maintainer and his metabuddies.

Unfortunately for you cacogen my personal idea of fun is extremely relevant

cacogen wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:52 am
Obviously I already thought about exploits like this before making the suggestion and obviously I wouldn’t have made the fucking suggestion if it wasn’t possible to write code that prevents things like this.

Maybe you should give your great answer to prevent exploiting this then instead of saying its so easy.

Honestly, stasis beds are for dying people, not corpses. And even with dying people, it has a bit of unintuitiveness attached in the way that it prevents chem metabolism as well, which some players may not be conscious of unless they have some experience under their belt. Formaldehyde works just fine for corpse preservation, and paramedics have a lot of it.

Besides that one unintuitiveness, the worst consequence of stasis beds is that they may have accidentally weakened viruses as well. They can readily stop people dying from a virus or letting it progress. Not that viruses are especially engaging, but they definitely took the edge off their power.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:36 pm Honestly, stasis beds are for dying people, not corpses. And even with dying people, it has a bit of unintuitiveness attached in the way that it prevents chem metabolism as well, which some players may not be conscious of unless they have some experience under their belt. Formaldehyde works just fine for corpse preservation, and paramedics have a lot of it.

Besides that one unintuitiveness, the worst consequence of stasis beds is that they may have accidentally weakened viruses as well. They can readily stop people dying from a virus or letting it progress. Not that viruses are especially engaging, but they definitely took the edge off their power.

Unless you find out about the virus early enough that you can limit the strain to medbay, stasis beds aren't numerous enough to slow a virus down, especially a highly infectious one made by a virologist.

If the fun in medbay is triage, then shouldn't stasis beds be removed? They completely invalidate the need for keeping a patient stable while you work on them, invalidate the difficulty of working on Plasmamen, and invalidate the need to hurry your ass up in reviving a dead patient. Sounds like the argument for stasis beds is also a strong argument for removing them.

As a second thought, since they cannot be linked to operating computers, there's less opportunity for traitors to do fun/dangerous things to players. I've been stopped on numerous occasions asking why I'm dragging a body to the operating room and bypassing the stasis beds. There's no privacy in the treatment room and you'll get complained at if you go off meta. If I'm being operated on, I should have a nagging feeling that they might do something nefarious to me. Instead, I know that even if the doctor is a tot, they're not going to do shit as they're in direct observation of usually 2-3 other people.

No because bodies pile up regardless, stasis beds are an aide to triage, especially if you are not a hyper optimized med power gamer like me

Aide or crutch? If that's the case, should they disallow operation entirely while you sort through bodies? Then again, you could just throw everyone in a morgue tray as they also preserve organs.

Aide, considering there is a rich triage game revolving them, I really don't think there's any problems

I don't think the fun in medbay comes from triage at all. I find the fun is saving people who you know will die if you mess up, stasis beds remove that thrill because they give you infinite time.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:01 pm I don't think the fun in medbay comes from triage at all. I find the fun is saving people who you know will die if you mess up, stasis beds remove that thrill because they give you infinite time.

Death gives you infinite time. Actually if you strangle your patients, more of their damage post revival will be the trivially curable suffocation type. Strangle your patients today!


Common mistakes in stasis include reattaching damaged limbs that kill the player or trying e.g. brain surgery on a fractured head which then vents its organs because it burst open.

What are the hypothetical situations that avoid a stasis bed that are such thrilling game play ; lets go over the commons, see if you can come up with something more "interesting" than this take.

• Standard brute/burn trauma - inject epinephrine, this will stop them dying. You now have infinite time to deal with a situation that is going to get no worse (burn wounds aside, see also cryo, which is already the go-to over debriding)
• Has an active toxin in their system - ongoing damage - possibility of liver failure. KILL THE PATIENT BEFORE THEIR LIVER FAILS. Inject cryostylane (formaldehyde = shift start silver = no thanks). Once the patient is dead and cryostylaned, you have infinite time. There's probably no point trying to blood filter the toxin before it kills them / their liver. Pentetic acid isn't worth the time it takes to make (again silver, from its formaldehyde ingredient). Pot+water injection is the cheat win here that reduces the problem to epinephrine + infinite time. So powergame and carry pot+water, or just stop caring and kill them fast.
• Has low blood and is suffocating. KILL THE PATIENT BEFORE THEY LOSE MORE BLOOD. Cryostylane them. You now have infinite time to heal the patient. Chances of you getting to the blood freezers and all that stuff on time before they suffocate is likely near zero anyway if their blood is below 60%, so don't stress it, just let em die.
• Other?
• Cureall for all of the above: Remove their internals, throw them in cryo tube. Even if they have ongoing issues cryo will probably keep them alive for "infinite time" until you're ready to deal with them. Unless their liver fails, in which case you should probably have let them die to avoid the liver failing.

Death isn't all that anyway so all you're doing is promoting death as a new form of stasis, since aside from organ decay (cryostylane), it hits all the other spots of stopping bloodchem processing and the respiration requirement, all you are guaranteed to achieve by removing stasis is to force cryostylane into the meta, because there's little reason to care about death anyway. Other than, as an admin, I guess I rather people stayed in their bodies unconscious over being dead ghosts.





Ultimately all that makes your ideas work is a personal aversion to seeing the patient die. Without stasis this will quickly become normalised and its advantages recognised, and most people will stop caring. Ultimately if all this always comes down to is personal choice, then just choose not to use stasis and play the minigame you want to play, because mechanically you'll have to change a /lot/ and be quite unpopular in the process to actually 'create' a serious condition that has to be time-race-battled. And I don't think most people (medical or patients) want to deal with time based perma-round-removal, which is probably the only way to hit what you really want to hit here.

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:38 pm Then again, you could just throw everyone in a morgue tray as they also preserve organs.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone do this, unfortunately. I don’t think most people know about it. The trays are also a bit out of the way of the treatment centre, making it inconvenient to do. But it would be good if organ freezing was visible to the player, and in an obvious way (e.g. freezing overlay), so it saw more use.