/tg/Station 13

Heretics very rarely ascend, and when they do it's either in a lowpop round or a round so insanely chaotic that they can sacrifice people in the open without stealth mattering. Most heretics don't use spells until they ascend because having a focus on you is equivalent to running around with a 357 in your belt slot as a traitor - you'd get instantly valided, and the spells aren't good enough to combat all of security and the validhunters that are on your tail.

The antag type is currently feast or famine - either heretics get caught with their green hand and RR'd (perhaps a few blade breaks in between), or they manage to get all their sacrifices and ascend. I think it would be nice to see more heretic magic in rounds. If heretics didn't need a focus, we'd likely see a lot more cool heretic spells and it would add a lot of variety to the rounds they're in. Worst case scenario a few more ascensions happen, but that's a small price to pay for newer players and players that don't have a trillion hours to get a chance to enjoy their heretic rounds and use some cool spells (even if they can't ascend).

Spells usually require a sac or two to get the knowledge points to unlock, and that's around the most sacs a heretics will get in rounds anyway. Thoughts?

>Heretics very rarely ascend,

unless you have the data to back that up this thread is kind of meaningless

Heretics are not suppose to ascend often it's the ultimate git gud anteg.

melbert is adding tracking for ascending to the blackbox so we should have the answer to the question soon enough

ill get the answer when i get home in like thirty minutes nvm it was too annoying

Mailbox wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:23 am Heretics are not suppose to ascend often it's the ultimate git gud anteg.

I agree. I would predict the number to be below 10%, and I'd say that's just fine. The issue is that heretics who don't ascend usually can't enjoy any of the fun spells and content that heretic has to offer. In-game you either see a stunhand, a blade break, an ashen jaunt at most - or you see the rare fully ascended heretic using all their spells. It would be nice to have more in-between and to see heretics using magic more often.

They are a very cool antag type with super complex and unique spells and traits, and it's a shame these only make an appearance in the small percentage of rounds where heretics ascend.

I have only seen heretics ascend when the station was thoroughly trashed by others antags, like revs that found it funny for the heretic to ascend. (It's suddenly not that hard to kill a head of staff and a security member when revs do it for you)

Mailbox wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:23 am Heretics are not suppose to ascend often it's the ultimate git gud anteg.

Thats really bad design then. Considering that to greentext they need to Kill their departmental target, a random person, a security officer, and a head of staff. (Or maybe just 2-3 of these guys instead of all of them)

Which means that if you've gotten green text but not ascension you were literally one step before Ascension. You probably didnt have enough time/resources for the ritual.

It'd be like an antag having the objective to blow up the station with a custom made bomb. But you can greentext simply by just making the bomb. It's not really a bonus objective if its the next step in progression, and the basic greentext is the actual difficult part!

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:11 am They are a very cool antag type with super complex and unique spells and traits, and it's a shame these only make an appearance in the small percentage of rounds where heretics ascend.

It'd be nice if the amount of roundstart heretic portals got upped so heretics can get their cool abilities to use on their first and second sac. Without them, you usually see the majority of heretics dying on their first sac target due to not being a stronger force in combat. And if they do get their first sac, the second one being much higher in the chain of command will also lead to them getting dunked on.

Thus heretics would change from a weak to fight antag. To a race to stop them from absorbing all the portals and becoming quite menacing to fight.

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:38 am melbert is adding tracking for ascending to the blackbox so we should have the answer to the question soon enough

Do we have this data now?

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:27 am

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:38 am melbert is adding tracking for ascending to the blackbox so we should have the answer to the question soon enough

Do we have this data now?

Yes, I have no idea how to attach an image but its in the #admin auditorium channel on the discord

click the image button

- Smellbert

5% of people ascending for a fairly common antagonist doesnt sound terrible to me

assuming the actual gameplay pre-ascension is still fun anyway

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:51 pm assuming the actual gameplay pre-ascension is still fun anyway

I'm gonna stop ya there bucko it's not. (If you suck at it like myself)

that sounds like a more pressing problem then

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:14 am that sounds like a more pressing problem then

I`m just going to list off the issues I personally feel like the antagonist has then

1. Heretic is a solo antagonists where most of its abilities are only designed for combat and therefore are balanced around outing you as an antagonist when you use them, this means that heretic lacks actual utility that would assist them with their goals without outing them as an antagonist.

If heretic had more abilities that interacted with other mechanics/the sandbox like traitor`s emag, sleepy pen, camera bug, AI detector thingy, briefcase full of cash, no slips, chameleon clothes, storage implant, etc it would be more healthy for the game.

The closest thing to any of that is the trap/alarm runes which most paths must make a large investment in order to unlock (multiple sacrifices worth)

Oh and Rust heretic`s WALL of rust, this is actually my favorite heretic ability in the entire roaster because it's just pure utility a single 1x1 rusted iron wall sprouts from the ground (can only be used on rusted tiles)



2. Given that Heretic abilities are combat focused, how much do they actually benefit their user in exchange for outing them as an antagonist?

Rust heretic`s gimmick is all about healing while on rust, in order to heal you need to get hit, if you get hit youre likely to have a wound, rust path cant fix wounds, there isnt a heretic ability in the entire tree that can fix wounds, also rust healing in most cases wont even result in you needing to take 3 stun baton hits instead of 2, do not play around rust tiles they will get you killed.

(I want to add that their grasp upgrade will 2 shot mechs and 1 shot borgs but that is a consolation prize when most other paths are inherently better off in every other situation and if a round lasts long enough to have mechs then its already an ideal round for a heretic which is another inherent issue with them that i`ll get to later)

Rust wall actually does very little to point out who used the ability so its actually meaningful utility without 100% outing your status, so I`m just gonna leave this here, strongest ability rust heretic has....only issue is you need a focus lul


Ash heretic has a weak jaunt except if there is anything that hinders your movement even slightly before you jaunt youll just reappear in the same spot (so you cant use it to react to a stun baton), only use it to break into places discreetly, the rest of ash heretics abilities mainly revolve around doing traces amounts of stamina damage or setting people on fire, both of which are not impactful given how fast combat often is.


Flesh heretic is unironically the best, why? Because most of its abilities are things that don`t quite put a target on your head when you use them, you summon minions that help you without pointing a finger directly at you therefore the only real cost is the time you invest in your minions. I`ll explain why thralls are important for the REAL heretic gameplay loop.


Void is probably the most reliable because it is the least limited on where it can go and actually has the means to escape combat consistently. Every successful heretic usually goes out of their way to get void`s jaunt ability. Also its initial grasp upgrade directly helps with the REAL heretic gameplay loop (its a mute instead of vocal disruption)


Blade heretic gets repostle when holding a blade pretty early in the round, is that good? no because 1, to use it you have to have a blade out which means youre outed as an antag, 2 I`m pretty sure it mitigates every damage type except stamina and you`ll still get the instant knockdown from batons / delayed knockdown from stun batons. Later on blade heretic gets inherent access to orbiting blades, like almost every other heretic ability this outs you as an antag when you use it and puts a target on you for every player on the server to go after, is it worth it? Yes because it actually blocks hits for you in most cases, including from stun batons, this ability makes you more tanky than the entire rust heretic path + ascension.


3. What actually is the gameplay loop for heretics (Preascension)
It's very simple, you stun baton someone, and then you grasp them. Thats it, that's your gameplay loop, flesh heretic is best at this because it can turn security into stun baton thralls discreetly, void is a runner up because their grasp mutes people completely and later on void heretic can just jaunt away if their 1v1 assassination suddenly becomes a 1v2.

Oh and another issue I have with heretics i forgot to go over, the fact that they are a scaling antagonist when command staff have every reason to just call shuttle and end the round if they know you are being remotely successful at saccing people.

Several months ago i saw a shuttle call followed by an announcement saying "dean ivanov is a heretic" as the reason for the shuttle call, this is blatantly rule 12 and I need to make a policy thread over it.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:51 pm assuming the actual gameplay pre-ascension is still fun anyway

This is the main issue I think. 5% seems pretty good to me too, but that 95% almost never get to use their magic or spells. Ideally we'd see more like 10-50% at least using some cool unique heretic magic in rounds they're in, while also not buffing heretic in a way that would create too many ascensions.

IMO another good solution to this would be giving every heretic path a default spell unique to that path which they could use roundstart, perhaps also without a focus. That way the giant amount of heretics that get zero sacs would still be able to add some conflict and fun to rounds, and maybe enjoy themselves more. I'm not sure how it'd affect ascensions, but provided this spell is just one of the ones in their current arsenal, it doesn't seem any would be strong enough to powercreep the antag as a whole.

Would be neat to test it and see how it affects ascensions for a week or so - if it doesn't touch the statistic much (I predict it won't since ascension is mostly based purely off of hours), it could be worth a shot.

More non-combat utility spells seems like a good idea and being something you get just for picking a path without needing a focus also feels good for differentiating you early from other heretic paths rather than them all being a guy with a funny hand.

To reiterate my point about being unrobust. If I'm trying to not go loud and get caught immediately I don't have many abilities as a heretic. Only the Green hand is available for the first couple steps. It would be nice if there was a early heretic spell like Jaunt for all path and it wasn't locked behind the focus.

I think we should shift heretics to get fun stuff earlier (fighting without spells blows ass) and ascension later (ascension is fun but for most of the paths invalidates the previous stinkyhand centered gameplay). Most of the time the most fun part of a heretic run lies somewhere between 2nd blade upgrade and ascension, when you arent yet the unstoppable ascended killing machine but have all of your spells and utility at your disposal to have good fights with. Unfortunately once you're here the last kill or two become very easy and you have little time to enjoy this stage before you become death incarnate.

TLDR easier earlygame and harder lategame pls

I'd like to see the number of influences drained vs. how successful Heretics get, if that's possible. It feels to me that my success as a Heretic depends on how many influences I can find in a round, and whether I can even find them at all.

Heretics are extremely weak starting out, particularly if they don't get any influences due to them being inaccessible or other Heretics finding them first. Draining them tends to out you in a good number of circumstances as well. For a Heretic, their early game feels like it dictates how the round will turn out for them. Traitors, even at 0 rep, are still more dangerous than a starting Heretic and don't have to make a mad dash to try to scoop up influences. They can sit back and quietly do their work in a slower way without being "punished" for it. The pity points we get just don't make up for it.

Sadly, the game is balanced around stunsticks. If you can't go quiet, which Heretics generally can't, and you can't fight well in melee, which you won't if you're unlucky/late with influences unless you're really robust, then you die.

Anyone's free to add more intermittent spells, just ping me over it and we can talk. I have some ideas of my own around.

Re: "easier earlygame and harder lategame pls", also not opposed to this - if someone wants to go through and make the earlier nodes cheaper and later notes more expensive, by all means

Okay so increase cost of the strong late game abilities so you have to really invest to get them / branch towards them and increase the points heretics start with so they can consistently get their first ability / passive (think aristocrats way, rust healing, ashen shift) pretty much all of these arnt things seem strong for a solo antagonist to get at round start, even dance of the brand looks fine enough considering it only triggers when you get hit back and you have to be holding a blade.

My main issue is if void and rust heretics can consistently get their passives it might result in people actually trying to meta those two abilities by forcing people to stand on a rust tile to see if they heal or sec going around and choking people since a void heretic shouldnt lose oxygen or something...ugh i might go out of my way to make both abilities toggle-able so you can feign normalcy in extreme situations like that.