The Antag Nerfening

[sinfulbliss]

in no particular order:

- adrenals removed (no way to resist batongs)
- agent ID can't copy all of another ID's access
- carp nerfed (can't attack while deflecting, can't deflect while stunned)
- deswords nerfed (no knockdown, lose to batong RNG)
- emag nerfed (can't doorjack, extra 3 TC for airlock)
- detomatix no longer sends an explosion automatically
- all useful offensive tot items locked behind completing 15+ min of fetchquests
- contractor removed
- romerol removed
- cult mirror shield removed
- combat equipment spell no longer gives longsword
- heretic "sacrifices" revive the sac to full HP instead of gibbing
- QM now as a head of staff imbalances revs

over the past couple years antags have been made weaker and weaker. the vast majority of antags except those with 1000+ hours are forced to scuttle around doing minor subversion to stay as stealthy as possible (i.e. out of the stories of as many players as possible) to avoid getting owned by whoever with a batong sees them. issue is worse with traitors and heretics, although revs and cult have been having issues winning recently as well

this issue doesn't exist on manuel but i would argue buffing antags would be a net positive for TG because they can't murderbone anyways on manuel

[Shadowflame909]

im just waiting for the sec nerf so i can do gimmicks again without dying painfully and then having my brain hidden away in a toolbox in the armory

antags have definitely gotten weaker..but sec is bloodthirsty as ever

Which leads me to only be able to play in one way. maximum stealth greyshit powergaming. Can't be murdered as valid when I'm using tider tools to complete objectives.

[blackdav123]

dual wielding disablers is the bane of all antag enjoyment

we should steal the akimbo mechanics from TGMC where dual wielding doesnt increase DPS because you're just shooting both guns one by one with all the delay of one gun

[Rohen_Tahir]

Latejoining as a heretic during a high-threat round and becoming an eldritch ambulance is kinda wack.

[CPTANT]

One of the nerfs I really hate is that guns no longer fit backpacks. Sec has it easy because it fits their armor, but for the rest it's either use your only belt slot or nothing.

Backpacks should just fit 1-2 guns again.

[Kendrickorium]

i'm still seething over them taking out swarmers, i'll get back to you in a couple months about detomaxes being 100% unused now

[Shadowflame909]

One of the nerfs I really hate is that guns no longer fit backpacks. Sec has it easy because it fits their armor, but for the rest it's either use your only belt slot or nothing.

Backpacks should just fit 1-2 guns again.

The game has definitely become a lot more restrictive and linear instead of the sandbox it was once hailed to be. From antag systems to Job tools getting nerfed and only fitting in job-specific toolbelts. (Looking at you Advanced Engi tools)

I'm just glad mothblocks dnm'd the stun-baton nerf where it'd only fit in toolbelts and not backpacks. That'd of killed the stealth antag build 100%

[CPTANT]

One of the nerfs I really hate is that guns no longer fit backpacks. Sec has it easy because it fits their armor, but for the rest it's either use your only belt slot or nothing.

Backpacks should just fit 1-2 guns again.

The game has definitely become a lot more restrictive and linear instead of the sandbox it was once hailed to be. From antag systems to Job tools getting nerfed and only fitting in job-specific toolbelts. (Looking at you Advanced Engi tools)

I'm just glad mothblocks dnm'd the stun-baton nerf where it'd only fit in toolbelts and not backpacks. That'd of killed the stealth antag build 100%

Also a lot of job specific traits/antag gear creeped in over the years.

[toemas]

heretics reviving people is the most ridiculous shit ever imo

[cocothegogo]

this is because the coders hate murderbone for some reason

[datorangebottle]

this is because the coders hate murderbone for some reason

Possibly because large-scale murderbone kills server pop, which makes any other game design pointless.

[toemas]

large-scale murderbone kills server pop, which makes any other game design pointless.

People leave when they die and are not able to play anymore, thats not a problem, its the nature of the game. The potential for mass death/chaos is part of what makes it so fun.
some of my favorite rounds were when some gamer was going around massacring everyone, the halls were just littered with bodies and devastation and you had to fight tooth and nail to escape alive or defeat the maniac.

[datorangebottle]

large-scale murderbone kills server pop, which makes any other game design pointless.

thats not a problem

Except for the part where it makes the game less chaotic as a consequence of having less people connected and playing on the server. Like, for that round? sure, it's pretty fun to run away from or try to plan for/outrobust the mass murderer. but next round there's gonna be like 20 people roundstart, which is going to make less people want to play, and then the server's dead for the rest of the day.

[toemas]

but next round there's gonna be like 20 people roundstart

i've never seen the pop dive like that before after a murderbone, at most i've seen like a 10 player or 20 player decrease on highpop.
Im sure its happened before but i dont think the entire server leaving because of a murderbone ever happens frequently enough to warrant nerfing antags into the ground to prevent it

[HeyHey]

I hate that the solution to round removal is ham-stringing antags instead of adding things ghosts would want to do. Even a heavily limited "respawn" as a different crew member would be a better solution then the current direction.

[toemas]

also ironically long shifts where nothing happens cause huge pop deaths too so its not really even a solution lol

[Kendrickorium]

but next round there's gonna be like 20 people roundstart

i've never seen the pop dive like that before after a murderbone, at most i've seen like a 10 player or 20 player decrease on highpop.
Im sure its happened before but i dont think the entire server leaving because of a murderbone ever happens frequently enough to warrant nerfing antags into the ground to prevent it

I have.

they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

murderboning the entire population of a server IS only something that should happen every once in a great while. people will leave for the rest of the night or go play on another server if its constant. it's why admins are encouraged to send ERTs, and dynamic mode definitely helps combat it too a bit.

i love a good murderbone too but its something that should happen sparingly

[toemas]

i've never seen the pop dive like that before after a murderbone, at most i've seen like a 10 player or 20 player decrease on highpop.
Im sure its happened before but i dont think the entire server leaving because of a murderbone ever happens frequently enough to warrant nerfing antags into the ground to prevent it
they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

yeah that sounds like it would suck but administrative intervention would be the proper solution to that and not kneecapping antags, wouldnt you agree? rounds have just been so STALE recently, i think it is mostly a player issue but certain recent code changes certainly havent helped... you have some really cool stuff like mothblocks dynamic and blade path but theres just so much lame shit like heretics reviving people and garbage fetch quests

[Kendrickorium]

i've never seen the pop dive like that before after a murderbone, at most i've seen like a 10 player or 20 player decrease on highpop.
Im sure its happened before but i dont think the entire server leaving because of a murderbone ever happens frequently enough to warrant nerfing antags into the ground to prevent it
they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

yeah that sounds like it would suck but administrative intervention would be the proper solution to that and not kneecapping antags, wouldnt you agree? rounds have just been so STALE recently, i think it is mostly a player issue but certain recent code changes certainly havent helped... you have some really cool stuff like mothblocks dynamic and blade path but theres just so much lame shit like heretics reviving people and garbage fetch quests

>lame shit like heretics reviving people

keeping people playing in the round in any capacity is a good thing
a mix of antag nerfs and admin intervention is the best solution, continually adding new antags works too

[Helios]

this is because the coders hate murderbone for some reason

Possibly because large-scale murderbone kills server pop, which makes any other game design pointless.

Perhaps we could offer a check on murderbone.
Like some kind of machine that could revive people without the work of doctors as the bodies pile up. Some kind of cloner.

I have.

they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

murderboning the entire population of a server IS only something that should happen every once in a great while. people will leave for the rest of the night or go play on another server if its constant. it's why admins are encouraged to send ERTs, and dynamic mode definitely helps combat it too a bit.

i love a good murderbone too but its something that should happen sparingly

Sounds like big fish in a little pond. My intuitive response would be for other players to get on their level, but that's easier said then done. The other solution would be items or abilities that level the playing field, that can be used by the unrobust against the robust, but not vice versa.

Also: Orbiting the singularity as it slowly eats the station is extremely satisfying. I seem to remember a lot of ghosts orbiting too, instead of quitting. Blob eating the station does not compare.

[toemas]

keeping people playing in the round in any capacity is a good thing
a mix of antag nerfs and admin intervention is the best solution, continually adding new antags works too

the point of antags is that they add conflict and chaos to the round, trying to minimize round removal/death like this has only made the game less interesting

[Kendrickorium]

this is because the coders hate murderbone for some reason

Possibly because large-scale murderbone kills server pop, which makes any other game design pointless.

Perhaps we could offer a check on murderbone.
Like some kind of machine that could revive people without the work of doctors as the bodies pile up. Some kind of cloner.

I have.

they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

murderboning the entire population of a server IS only something that should happen every once in a great while. people will leave for the rest of the night or go play on another server if its constant. it's why admins are encouraged to send ERTs, and dynamic mode definitely helps combat it too a bit.

i love a good murderbone too but its something that should happen sparingly

Sounds like big fish in a little pond. My intuitive response would be for other players to get on their level, but that's easier said then done. The other solution would be items or abilities that level the playing field, that can be used by the unrobust against the robust, but not vice versa.

Also: Orbiting the singularity as it slowly eats the station is extremely satisfying. I seem to remember a lot of ghosts orbiting too, instead of quitting. Blob eating the station does not compare.

30 people waiting in line to be cloned didnt work out so well, ever
getting rid of cloning was fantastic

[Kendrickorium]

keeping people playing in the round in any capacity is a good thing
a mix of antag nerfs and admin intervention is the best solution, continually adding new antags works too

the point of antags is that they add conflict and chaos to the round, trying to minimize round removal/death like this has only made the game less interesting

i can cause plenty of chaos and conflict by running around with a syndicate bomb for a minute and a half
i dont need to murder the entire server pop to do it

[toemas]

i can cause plenty of chaos and conflict by running around with a syndicate bomb for a minute and a half
i dont need to murder the entire server pop to do it

I don't see how that contradicts what I said, you seem to be misunderstanding me

[CPTANT]

i've never seen the pop dive like that before after a murderbone, at most i've seen like a 10 player or 20 player decrease on highpop.
Im sure its happened before but i dont think the entire server leaving because of a murderbone ever happens frequently enough to warrant nerfing antags into the ground to prevent it
they are absolutely right that murderboning kills server pop, short term AND long term
back when hippiestation was in its death throes one of the things that finished it off for good was the utterly constant round after round murder of every single player playing, by ONLY 1 or 2 people, everytime they got antag. if they DIDNT get antag, they would valid hunt the fuck OUT of the antags. the admins and coders did absolutely NOTHING to combat this, and eventually everyone just stopped playing. I screamed about this on hippieforums for a solid half year before everyone just completely stopped playing and then the server died.

yeah that sounds like it would suck but administrative intervention would be the proper solution to that and not kneecapping antags, wouldnt you agree? rounds have just been so STALE recently, i think it is mostly a player issue but certain recent code changes certainly havent helped... you have some really cool stuff like mothblocks dynamic and blade path but theres just so much lame shit like heretics reviving people and garbage fetch quests

>lame shit like heretics reviving people

keeping people playing in the round in any capacity is a good thing
a mix of antag nerfs and admin intervention is the best solution, continually adding new antags works too

No, it just removes all the stakes and thus the tension. Why would I fear heretics? I know if they sacrifice me I will get back anyway (unless you really suck).

[Rageguy505]

I dislike the heretic change, before there was the substantial crime of murder that you could easily tie to a heretic. Now their main crime is just being valid and that's really boring to deal with.
And the mirror shield nerf makes sense since slugs and buckshot were removed. Security has seen nerfs with their ballistic weapons, but it dosent matter a whole lot since they still got the baton.

[Capsandi]

I don't understand where this idea that space station 13 being a paranoia-laden round based roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical metal deathtrap masquerading as a space station comes from. Isn't it just a job simulator chatroom wherein every 40 minutes you walk to a spaceship which restarts the round?

[oranges]

aren't you the guy who attacked a blob player as a heretic?

no wonder the antags win rate is down

[sinfulbliss]

aren't you the guy who attacked a blob player as a heretic?

no wonder the antags win rate is down

Ha

Blob actually isn't listed here because they're one of the few antags that aren't nerfed, in fact they've become even stronger after Z-levels were added because they can choose difficult-to-access lower Z levels and then break the stairs preventing people from accessing them.

[Armhulen]

Just thinking out loud here maybe we should have something between "every round is a server wiper" and "every round nothing happens"

[Whoneedspacee]

Just thinking out loud here maybe we should have something between "every round is a server wiper" and "every round nothing happens"

admin issue thread locked

[chocolate_bickie]

I find that antags are just slow. Prog antags take ages to build up and even when they manage to a lot of the tools they unlock are useless.

Stealth is pretty much the only way to play which is why so many rounds feel kinda boring.

[Shadowflame909]

I find that antags are just slow. Prog antags take ages to build up and even when they manage to a lot of the tools they unlock are useless.

Stealth is pretty much the only way to play which is why so many rounds feel kinda boring.

designer didnt like to be e-sworded at roundstart

so now every roundstart you can guarantee nothing will happen

They succeeded..but was it good for the game?

[NecromancerAnne]

I think it's okay in moderation. Heretics are pretty fighty, or can be, relatively early if they can get at rifts, but its strictly 1v1. Tots are maybe the slowest right now.

I now have an important question. Has anyone seen a changeling for the last few months? Did they get disabled? Whats up?

[san7890]

I was changeling last week and it was still fine.

[NecromancerAnne]

I feel the urge to play changeling every now and again and get up to dumb shit, because I know I can do things that risk my own safety and be entirely fine. Because it's funny.

And I don't mean in a fighting sense, I mean 'boy I sure do love drinking sulphuric acid' funny.

[chocolate_bickie]

I feel the urge to play changeling every now and again and get up to dumb shit, because I know I can do things that risk my own safety and be entirely fine. Because it's funny.

And I don't mean in a fighting sense, I mean 'boy I sure do love drinking sulphuric acid' funny.

I agree. I remember grenade spearing people as changeling because I could literally just regenerate and do it again.

[CPTANT]

I feel the urge to play changeling every now and again and get up to dumb shit, because I know I can do things that risk my own safety and be entirely fine. Because it's funny.

And I don't mean in a fighting sense, I mean 'boy I sure do love drinking sulphuric acid' funny.

I agree. I remember grenade spearing people as changeling because I could literally just regenerate and do it again.

There was one very annoying ling once that got the RD hardsuit and then suicide bombed everyone and just got up again because the suit has bomb protection. He literally did this with 6 maxcaps and there wasn't jack anyone could do about it because everyone who knew it was him doing the bombing just got blown up.

[blackdav123]

traitors and heretics are more common because those both have latejoin/midround while changeling is roundstart only

[Itseasytosee2me]

I prefer weaker antags than attempts to remove violence from antags (Via code like Heretic shadow realm, or anti-murderboning polices.)
The seen problem is that people being absolutely destroyed by antags every all to often.
The solution that makes the most sense is to make them weaker, instead of limiting their agency.

[oranges]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

[CPTANT]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

"No, the players are wrong!" is a mortal blow to game development.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

Level of english issue.

[oranges]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

"No, the players are wrong!" is a mortal blow to game development.

snarky response:We have been doing it that way for the past 5 years so what's changed?

People playing this game as if it was a league of legends MOBA are literally making the game unfun for themselves, this game will never be well balanced because it's a sandbox game it's simply not possible.

Playing to win actually saps your own enjoyment of the product.

[toemas]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

this isnt a terry-exclusive issue, most of the people complaining about it in this thread dont play terry

[TheFinalPotato]

The same response applies to them too
Time to kill people more imo

[sinfulbliss]

People playing this game as if it was a league of legends MOBA are literally making the game unfun for themselves, this game will never be well balanced because it's a sandbox game it's simply not possible.

Playing to win actually saps your own enjoyment of the product.

Players haven't been playing to win anymore than they have 2 years ago. The difference is after several nerfs players that do this affect the rounds of antags even more.
If all these nerfs were initially in the interest of balance then clearly you do care about balance at least to some degree.

[Shadowflame909]

I feel the urge to play changeling every now and again and get up to dumb shit, because I know I can do things that risk my own safety and be entirely fine. Because it's funny.

And I don't mean in a fighting sense, I mean 'boy I sure do love drinking sulphuric acid' funny.

Best changeling gimmick recently for me is griefing my target by pretending to be strangers.

I've done it twice so far where I stealth dna sting like 20 different people, remove all my clothes and carry a generic leather bag. Then I just use the shapeshift + fake clothes and welder bomb/chainsaw/drill my target until they're a paranoid wreck when anyone gets close.

Great for paranoia and false arrests! (and I dont get gibbed because no one knows im a changeling. They all think im just a dead griefer)

Going Loud will grant you a short round. But generate lots of tension and excitement for a bit. While going stealth will make people wonder why there's such a big greytiding problem. But grant you the epic greentext.

[CPTANT]

Also if terry players just played the game less optimally this wouldn't be a problem just saying.

"No, the players are wrong!" is a mortal blow to game development.

snarky response:We have been doing it that way for the past 5 years so what's changed?

People playing this game as if it was a league of legends MOBA are literally making the game unfun for themselves, this game will never be well balanced because it's a sandbox game it's simply not possible.

Playing to win actually saps your own enjoyment of the product.

Then why block the return of the more RP, sandbox style old traitor in favour of the mechanically driven prog traitor that is way more railroaded into a pay to win style?

[oranges]

Because we had severe problems with managing the destructive scaling of antagonists, and people won't stop abusing all the worst combinations to cause maximum damage in the first 5 minutes of the round.

I would have preferred not to but I really don't believe we had a choice.