/tg/Station 13

I personally know of many sec players, who enjoyed roleplaying, quitting because that part of the game is no longer fun after the dynamic revamp. What is left are people who want the pvp card to beat people up.

Let's Not Kid Ourselves:

There are good sec players and there are bad sec players.
We need to encourage the good kind of sec player who will take the time to, for example, properly investigate the crime, and not the bad kind who beheads the subject with a stolen fire axe on the spot because he found an emag on him.

It's been my experience that we can't make the second type of player behave differently.

We can only allow for more players of the first type to find the security role appealing again, and the only way to achieve that is to reduce antagonism.

Why this is important

Because security players, good or bad, have an ooc license to restrict other players in their enjoyment of the game and even to round remove them.
They can be detrimental to the enjoyment of the game.

We cannot ignore the human element

Now that the rounds have become more chaotic, it's become a lot harder for security players, who try to roleplay and to be good sportsmates, to engage in said rolplaying aspect of security, because there is always some threat to take care of.

Some have defended the changes to the dynamic mode as in line with the "metal deathtrap" motto of space station 13. I don't think it goes against this motto at all to demand incentives for better security playstyles, that don't fuck players over.

My Solution:

Slightly lowering the threat level would encourage better sec players, who enjoy the roleplay and not the power fantasy.

in case it is not obvious, this is how unappealing security has become to the roleplay-focused manuel server playerbase

I 100% agree that this has become an issue but I dont think that dynamic is the sole cause of this.

Currently almost all of our antags are coded to either fuck everybody up (nukies, cult, revs) or to scale into a massive threat (heretic, prog traitor). The only two we still have that still leave plenty of room for roleplaying are changeling and wizard.

Traitors are the most common antag and with them switching sides and joining the linear antags the balance has been shifted in favor of antags that follow their objectives instead of doing whatever they want. The only solution to this is to completely ignore everything about prog traitors and just wait in a locker for 30 minutes to play them like original traitors.

Seccies dont have time for roleplaying when every traitor is a massive loot pinata and every minute they waste talking to crew is another minute stronger all the valids have become.

Another note is that you are disincentivized from playing sec on lowpop because there is a 50/50 chance you'll roll latejoin antags or sleeper agent joining as other jobs instead.

Agree with the problem, disagree with the solution.

At the end of the day the risk-reward of getting typebaited and wordlessly RR'd, versus maybe creating a cool RP moment, is too low for security, so people will default to the more mechanical approach to keep themselves in the game. That said if you learn how to handle the mechanical side you can then take more risks which open up the RP side.

What Fulp does is prevent traitors from killing security FNR, and only allows them to kill officers that are pursuing them. This creates a lot more room for sec to approach with roleplay first, and antagonists then can reply in turn. Maybe Manuel could adopt this policy if sec pop is a big issue?

I don't see how this is coding feedback because you can't code peoples personalities?

Also threat is a configuration option, so it's up to the server admins to change.

edit: oh also ps

The only solution to this is to completely ignore everything about prog traitors and just wait in a locker for 30 minutes to play them like original traitors.

You could also contribute to the round as a normal crew member until those 30 minutes are up too by the way.

This thread is hilarious in contrast with this other one: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=32397

the duality of man

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:36 am At the end of the day the risk-reward of getting typebaited and wordlessly RR'd, versus maybe creating a cool RP moment, is too low for security, so people will default to the more mechanical approach to keep themselves in the game. That said if you learn how to handle the mechanical side you can then take more risks which open up the RP side.

THIS is why this is a code issue. And it's not limited to security, most people are already on a hair trigger because it's one stun from an antag and you're out. And the players who stay long term are by and large the type of players who want that. Combat is way too lethal and way too fast (compared to the only* variable we can't control, the speed that most players type at).

But no one is going to rework the whole combat system. And why would they? It's a massive undertaking and so much responsibility that you'll be stoned by the maints for opening a draft (which in turn would be justified as you are very likely to fuck it up so hard you kill the game)

VexingRaven wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:55 pm This thread is hilarious in contrast with this other one: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=32397

I disagree. Both threads agree with each other. People want less antags and less scaling power nonsense to worry about, but the potential for antags to be either more dangerous or less easy to arrest encourages both antags staying alive and causing more conflict, being able to roleplay more with less risk, as well as having each antag be more significant to the round, instead of a hoard of antags each round that have to be dealt with one after the other in case the other antags grow "stronger" when you are busy trying to actually roleplay.

Are you really going to tell me any antag that isn't masochistic is going to try and talk to anyone near them in any significant roleplay when one person with a stun baton can just end their round in 5 seconds flat, with ease? Same with security officers, of course, but at least they aren't losing an antag round and can call for backup and help. An antag does not have that luxury. Antags should get more defensive tools, they need to be less of a glass cannon.

I've always found loud sabotages and murderboners more interesting than quiet sabotages that do nothing or quiet round removals, and I've always wished antags were balanced around the former, instead of the latter, even if my favorite is antags doing death traps and kidnapping people, which antags still kind of can do that.

I never engaged in tiding, but I appreciated it being there. The low boil that could overflow if other antagonists caused shit to hit the fan, or repeated flash gave the tide more energy than ever.
During those days sec would have something to do, but it would often involve banging heads. Good.

I think one issue that sec suffers from, especially on MRP is people are allowed to harass them since there's been more of a push for 'light conflict between crew' Which usually boils down to one asshat making it his duty to fuck with sec because they either A) Stopped him from tiding or B) Did something he didn't like. If there was less self antagging it'd be a hell of a lot more fun to play but when you play sec its you vs the entire crew in most cases.

JustRandomGuy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:08 pm THIS is why this is a code issue. And it's not limited to security, most people are already on a hair trigger because it's one stun from an antag and you're out. And the players who stay long term are by and large the type of players who want that. Combat is way too lethal and way too fast (compared to the only* variable we can't control, the speed that most players type at).

But no one is going to rework the whole combat system. And why would they? It's a massive undertaking and so much responsibility that you'll be stoned by the maints for opening a draft (which in turn would be justified as you are very likely to fuck it up so hard you kill the game)

The combat was 10 times more fast and lethal ten years ago, but that didnt stop people from roleplaying, now did it?

There are no code solutions for a lack of roleplay. Trying to find one will only serve to make the game less fun. its entirely a playerbase issue and its in the hands of the admins