Security helmet Camera Vote Or Die Edition

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:53 pm #78876

Bottom post of the previous page:

You can just as easily say it's babying antags. They don't need to have an easy time killing sec officers and they now need to take more care if they want to be really stealthy but still murder a bunch of people.

Now for some reason that argument's unacceptable but the reverse is fine? I don't get it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:59 pm #78879

there is no 'stealth' there is 'attack an officer and go loud because they instantly know who you are AND where you are. Unless you have emps.

People can kill sec officers just as easily as before. The only difference now is that it's impossible to not get spotted, short of getting very specific things for emps. This is restrictive for no fucking reason.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:00 pm #78880

If you decide to attack a Officer without hiding your identity then that's a fault in your strategy.

The fact that Sec will have a much better idea of where their man is simply puts a time limit on how long you should be engaging a Officer.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:06 pm #78883

I put up a PR that disallows the AI to view anything the Sec Camera can see: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8591

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:33 pm #78893

if an officer goes into maint alone and gets dunked that's a fault in his strategy

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:01 pm #78907

i'm not adamant either way but i do think the AI shouldn't have access to it, as the AI will be forced to watch it like a hawk constantly to prevent harm and it will bias the AI towards being too helpful to security when they really are supposed to be neutral.

Bob Dobbington · Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:59 pm

Steelpoint wrote:>no way to transmit video over a wireless link

Do I dare need to explain how horrible this reasoning is?

There's no need to make something like this so obtuse to use to the point where its very dubious as to why its even in the game in the first place.

Ow, my horrible reasoning. Look, name one other thing in the SS13 universe capable of transmitting over-the-air video. Even the regular voice comms require an absurd amount of equipment set up simply to create multiple voice channels. Logically, you'd want the helmetcams to still be functional when comms aren't, so you're talking about something based on a station bounced radio. So, at best, you're transmitting a digital image over a 5khz wide
shortwave AM channel. That's three orders of magnitude less bandwidth than, say, your typical VHF television channel. We need a huge room full of equipment just to process the audio streams of normal comms, so we can assume that it'd be a couple orders of magnitude more complex to packetize it and put it into the comms network. It doesn't make sense that you could do everything the entire suite of Tcomms equipment could do in a handheld device. So it'd have to be some sort of analogue video signal, that doesn't require extensive digital post-processing. If each SBR channel (tenth of a frequency point, eg 141.2 is a channel, 141.3 is a channel) is wide enough for a 5khz audio channel, you'd need to take up 1000 frequency points worth of bandwidth (141.1-241.0), which I believe is larger than the total range of the IC radio spectrum that SBRs can transmit and recieve on. Either this makes sense or Tcomms and station bounced radios don't. At the very least, wireless full motion video should have to go through Tcomms because it'd have to go through subspace in order to work at all: there's simply not enough analogue bandwidth in the normal spectrum to make this work.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:21 pm #78950

I think steelpoints PR is a good first step in approaching consensus on this.

lets get that merged and then after a period of time we can revisit this and see where we're at

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:30 am #78996

Steelpoint wrote:If you decide to attack a Officer without hiding your identity then that's a fault in your strategy.

The fact that Sec will have a much better idea of where their man is simply puts a time limit on how long you should be engaging a Officer.

You having a giggle? Just because they can't see your name, or even your face, doesn't mean they can't very easily ID you, based off what you're wearing/hair/etc, unless you propose everyone also carries around a disguise for rapid use.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:42 am #79024

I can only speak for my own experiences and I literally never play warden but it's hard to remember that I can even add things onto my helmet when playing as an officer. As an AI, which I play frequently, I've completely forgotten about helmet cameras and just kept on using tracking/suit sensors, which are honestly still a bit more convenient to check imo than having to change your view.

So I don't really mind whichever way this feature goes but for what it's worth, I don't think it's been adopted widely enough to tell what it's actual effects are. But no one wants a repeat of coderbus doing things like, no we're not going to revert, just try it out for a week :^), so I don't know.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:56 am #79033

I'll gladly personally revert this change (Not the Flashlight change, just the Camera one) if it is universally disliked or horribly and continually breaks the game. I like to think that at the very least I'm open to discussion and will alter/revert/fix things that I make.

Also, I deliberately disallowed the Warden and HoS from being able to mount a Camera to their hats.

Maccus · Post by **Maccus** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:36 am #79163

I like playing security. Please don't keep this in. When there's no danger to the game there is no reason to play, since you could just be freeform roleplaying on Skype or something if you want something you cannot lose at.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:56 am #79169

It might be worth a vote or player poll to see the usage rates of the security camera. It's obviously not meant to displace the feedback here but a short questionnaire like

>Have you frequently used the security helmet cameras as an officer?
>Have you frequently used the security helmet cameras as a person viewing camera feed to pre-emptively search for officers in distress?
>Have you frequently used the security helmet cameras as a person viewing camera feed to aid officers in distress or officers that have gone silent?
>Based on in game experience and results only, do you think the security helmet cameras are effective in disrupting antag activity?

would go some way to figuring out what it's actual ingame effect is. The vote as it is only slightly favours the no side. Although the meta might shift as more players start using the cameras so maybe the negative feedback here are accurate. Who knows.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:43 pm #79242

Maccus wrote:I like playing security. Please don't keep this in. When there's no danger to the game there is no reason to play, since you could just be freeform roleplaying on Skype or something if you want something you cannot lose at.

Shadowlight213 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:40 pm

I've honestly found this to be far more useful as a tool to see if an officer is fucking off somewhere or going brain dead in a locker.

Maybe have a hit to the head take the camera offline for a while or something? like knock the power connections loose.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:50 pm #79320

palpatine213 wrote:I've honestly found this to be far more useful as a tool to see if an officer is fucking off somewhere or going brain dead in a locker.

Maybe have a hit to the head take the camera offline for a while or something? like knock the power connections loose.

That would basically be identical to removing it.

callanrockslol · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:50 pm

MisterPerson wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:I've honestly found this to be far more useful as a tool to see if an officer is fucking off somewhere or going brain dead in a locker.

Maybe have a hit to the head take the camera offline for a while or something? like knock the power connections loose.
That would basically be identical to removing it.

No, it wouldn't. It would make it work until someone managed to bash them on the head, the head of a heavily armed jackboot.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:26 am #79392

But then it's useless in combat, and all the non-combat uses of these cameras can be accomplished via the radio.

callanrockslol · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:49 am

Maybe it should be useless in combat, cameras are fragile things

Post by **MisterPerson** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:09 am #79402

callanrockslol wrote:Maybe it should be useless in combat, cameras are fragile things

Then why even have the item?

Incomptinence · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:49 am

Replace with handheld cameras preferably not dedicated to one department. Add shaky cam.

callanrockslol · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:53 am

MisterPerson wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:Maybe it should be useless in combat, cameras are fragile things
Then why even have the item?

That's a good question.

Silavite · Post by **Silavite** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:55 am #79410

How about we make it like the black boxes they have on airplanes. It will record the last 30 seconds of the officer's life, but transmits nothing, and you need to find it to view it.
Then again, powergamers would run off with the helmet and hide it somewhere, so perhaps add a beacon, but it only updates once a minute? Throwing it into space would just be too easy then though.

I guess it would change a lot for detectives. I'd think about it more, but I need sleep.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:24 am #79747

Something that I see a lot of people ignoring in this thread is the core gameplay role that security forces play. The purpose of security is not to be the enemy that antagonists face and defeat. Security is the force that antags (with a few obvious exceptions) are supposed to avoid and hide from. Half of the job of security is to apprehend criminals after crimes have already taken place if they are able to figure out the classic police question "whodunnit?" Picking a fight with security should almost always be the last thing on your mind. People are bitching that "Oh, I can't just pop out my stunprod and cablecuffs to murder a sec officer like I would any random greyshirt. If I do, the warden might see me." This is a GOOD THING. Committing murder of a security officer and GETTING AWAY WITH IT should be a difficult task that requires premeditation, planning, and careful execution. Needing to disguise yourself for the deed isn't that horribly difficult to do. There are two separate and publicly accessible mirrors on the station to change your hair color/style, and swapping clothing is standard ling play for a compromised identity. This is no different. Hell, firesuits + gasmask during the attack will make you all but anonymous so long as your hairstyle doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. The cameras encourage disguises and stolen identities, something that is all too lacking in the vast majority of our antags.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:08 am #79757

Silavite wrote:How about we make it like the black boxes they have on airplanes. It will record the last 30 seconds of the officer's life, but transmits nothing, and you need to find it to view it.
Then again, powergamers would run off with the helmet and hide it somewhere, so perhaps add a beacon, but it only updates once a minute? Throwing it into space would just be too easy then though.

I guess it would change a lot for detectives. I'd think about it more, but I need sleep.

Double useless. If you have the helmet, you have the officer's body, and at that point you can clone him to get perfect information.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Unless the body has been husked/spaced/stripped/gibbed/cremated/eaten/chestbursted/hidden

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:23 pm

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Unless the body has been husked/spaced/stripped/gibbed/cremated/eaten/chestbursted/hidden

Situations where you have the helmet but not the body seem pretty rare. Husked is probably the only relevant one and even then, husked people are quite clonable.

Poorman · Post by **Poorman** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:01 am #82295

Honestly looking back, I think this still needs to be talked about.

As sec, now I feel compelled to ignore the baret, or other things that don't have a camera in them, mainly because more often then not suit sensors go entirely ignored, and the only hope for discovery in maint is the AI spotting you.

Not only that, but with the recent revisions, potential commits, and overall mentality the coders seem to be having, it looks like the server is turning into sec vs antags.

It's a cool idea, but sec doesn't need any more power. Plus, the vote was in favor of reversion, but hey, coders are probably just going to ignore this, so whatever.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

I hate it when people refer to the coderbus as a single entity.

This is Steelpoint's babby, and he's the one who doesn't want to change it back. Also his 'AI cannot see these helmetcams' PR was broken or something

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:18 am #82463

It's not broken, it's just that no ones merged it.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:06 pm #98592

This is an old thread but this issue remains.

I play both sec and antags and I feel that it is definitely harder to kill sec now. I have been found in crit/dead several times now thanks to helmet cams. The helmet cams make some form of emp virtually mandatory unless you want the entire sec team on your ass the moment you take someone down. I feel that the cams have had enough time to settle in and have had a negative impact on gameplay.

It is just making security too hard to kill, now security rolls for antag sec isn't understaffed any more in most rounds and it has had a negative impact on traitor aggressiveness

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:24 pm #98630

Put them on their own camera network that the AI can't access without going to a new camera console that operates on that network. Make them only accessible through said console.

Alternatively, remove.

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:28 am

invisty wrote:Put them on their own camera network that the AI can't access without going to a new camera console that operates on that network. Make them only accessible through said console.

Alternatively, remove.

Would be better to remove than to make it that painful to use.

ChangelingRain · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:54 am

You can't make a camera's vision "invisible to the AI", it just doesn't work like that. AIs just can't jump to cameras not on the SS13 or AI networks, they can see areas even if the camera for that area is on a different network.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:56 am #98716

You should be able to set up the Camera's so the AI cannot view them, I even put up a PR that did that but one month later and with no mention of merging it I decided to close the PR.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:15 am #98720

You may as well remove the helmet cameras entirely. With the AI becoming less useful due to the nerfs, I have seen wardens become more active in handling officer emergencies. If you do not remove it from the warden/HoS, the players who are most interested in protecting Security Officers, you will see little change in your perceived issue. You will have to nerf the Security staff directly.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:08 am #98746

So mote it be

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/1015

edit: wow fuck that is not the right PR at all

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10158

Oldman Robustin · Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:08 am

Steelpoint wrote:I'll gladly personally revert this change (Not the Flashlight change, just the Camera one) if it is universally disliked or horribly and continually breaks the game. I like to think that at the very least I'm open to discussion and will alter/revert/fix things that I make.

Also, I deliberately disallowed the Warden and HoS from being able to mount a Camera to their hats.

"Shitty game-breaking bullshit" shouldn't be the fucking standard for removing bad ideas.

This is how we pile on 100 awful changes that collectively destroy the game with each individual one being just below the threshold of "oh my god this ruins the game".

Helmet cams are shit, there's nothing redeeming about them. They were the icing on the bullshit cake that led me to turn off traitor, ambush an officer and crit him and 5 seconds later the AI is constantly updating my maint position.

Revert.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:58 am #98971

Once again I was not the one to implement Sec Helm Cameras, many people think I did. I just added in the attachable lights to helmets. I was originally convinced during my light PR to also allow a camera to be added to the helmet, but I eventually put a stop to that PR simply because I was iffy on the Camera's on helmets and it was beyond my level of competent coding wise, someone else picked up my PR, finished it and got it merged.

As I said on the revert PR, I have no love lost for the Sec Camera's. In retrospect the whole idea was thought up on the spot with no consideration for the gameplay balance impact it would have.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:05 pm #99034

It's not an entirely bad idea and they're not universally disliked (the poll was, after all, 60/40), but I think the consensus is that the costs outweigh the benefits. Pity really, but there we are.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:11 pm #99072

Pull request still hasn't been merged.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:15 pm #99074

Its barely been a day, besides sometime's its not a bad idea to keep a discussion going instead of rushing a merge.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:12 pm #99102

Steelpoint wrote:Its barely been a day, besides sometime's its not a bad idea to keep a discussion going instead of rushing a merge.

Keeping the discussion going is fine, if folks still have something to say. I'm just making sure this doesn't fall off the radar.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:11 pm

rockpecker wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Its barely been a day, besides sometime's its not a bad idea to keep a discussion going instead of rushing a merge.
Keeping the discussion going is fine, if folks still have something to say. I'm just making sure this doesn't fall off the radar.

One day is hardly "off the radar". Nothing, not even the headcoders pet project may be merged within 24 hours for any issue short of "Literally breaks the server / fucks all the icons"

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:26 pm #100472

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10280 for current PR

Shadowlight213 · Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:26 am

>Sec helmet flashlights not being removed.
I am ok with this.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:41 am #100607

How do people feel about an implant that sends a message to the security channel when an officer enters crit? Too overpowered?
Leave a thought
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4022

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:51 am #100610

Well, you guys DID want a more lethal SS13. By castrating Sec, buffing traitors (including that HILARIOUS macrobomb implant) and making it crazy easy to blind the AI, you are getting what you want. May you enjoy your stay in Deadchat!

GG (I know para-pen C4 no longer exists, I just like posting it!)

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:52 am #100611

Dang it, now I have to repost, thanks to your page breaking techniques

How do people feel about an implant that sends a message to the security channel when an officer enters crit? Too overpowered?
Leave a thought
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4022

Should helmetcams for security be reverted