Progression Traitor Changes and Suggestions

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.
Post Reply
Redrover1760
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:27 am
Byond Username: Redrover1760

Progression Traitor Changes and Suggestions

Post by Redrover1760 » #659496

The Fundamental problem of Progressive Traitor is that it turns traitors into fetch quest objective players. In addition, refusing to interact with the system entirely means you get very little to work with until a full 30 minutes into the world, leading to a combination of players either slowly greytiding to sabotage objectives that are low-interaction or players waiting around for 30 minutes doing nothing and creating no conflict or fun for the crew. In addition, the system encourages playing traitor to keep going after the easiest objectives or to complete objectives in an incredibly checklist manner, even after getting 300 rep points or so. Why? Because naturally, when I play traitor nowadays, I do objectives to try and get to 300 points and I don't just stop there because I have already invested a large amount of time into doing so, its momentum. And since I'm spending so much time working on these objectives, actual fun traitoring ideas are completely drowned out by "Planning to do fairly boring objectives.... Because I have to." In addition, the large amount of objectives can be quite overwhelming, and hunting for easy objectives reduces actual fun interaction that COULD come out of Prog tot. In addition, easier objectives offer a way to expose

So, let me suggest some changes.

Nerf Objectives. In a good way. First things first, there are quite a few unengaging objectives. If I can do it in 10 seconds by hacking into a location and don't have to fuck with someone in order to complete the objective, or if it doesn't take a lot of difficulty to pull off otherwise, it needs to get removed. For instance,
1. Any objectives about destroying protolathes that isn't a Sec Protolathe deserve to go. These can be completed pathetically easy with a toolbelt. Screwdriver, crowbar. Maybe even replace the board afterwards. These aren't interesting nor do they cause any interaction beyond an average greytider mildly antagonizing people. Syndicate agents should not bother with these types of objective, if you want actual departmental sabotage objectives, you should focus on things that tiders can't easily do. I exempt sec protolathe from this as it would actually create interaction, in this scenario.
2. Posters are great in concept, but they are also pretty terrible in implementation in a way that needs to be changed. There are two mindsets one can have when placing posters. Either try to make them inaccessible, or hidden. The first seems pretty impossible to me, and the 2nd doesn't work either. You should not get a visible text message the second your character sees a poster anywhere. This makes the objective pretty much impossible if people watch their textboxes, instead of posters being sneaky propaganda. On that note, not sure about posters and such in general. Posters are a pretty pathetic reason to get caught by security, nor does it actively harm anyone outside of mild mood debuffs, which often makes (non-powergaming) sec completely ignore antags who get called out for posters, and yet it always creates a perfect opportunity to validhunt rep-less traitors who can't really defend themselves at all. The syndicate spraycan is interesting and pretty soulful as well, and its slipping thing is pretty annoying, so it may be alright, on the other hand.
3. Stealing easy stuff should also be removed. Clown shoes and AI intellicards should be on that list.
4. Pets are fine as generally the head of staff/department is there to defend their pet. Which means they should really give more points for doing so since it isn't easy.

Since a lot of easier objectives are removed, and tougher objectives are left, this means that inherently, objectives become more difficult. This means that, objectives should also give more rep points, and maybe more TC, as well (although, in my opinion, antags should not be doing progression traitor activities to farm TC, it should be a small side bonus at best. Objectives should be fun to do, it shouldn't need much of a reward). Perhaps, decrease some rep locks on progression traitor gear that isn't combat focused, as well.

The reason why easier objectives being removed is good for prog tot is:
1. By removing easier objectives of all types, it forces a traitor to take harder objectives immediately. This, coupled with a greater point reward, means a traitor can actually spend a lot more time creating interesting plans and ideas about how to complete an objective, instead of bumrushing it with powergaming.
2. It helps fight the "Checklist mentality" that progression traitor encourages. By removing easier objectives, one doesn't enter into a mode of trying to powergame the objectives as naturally, as they are difficult. By having less objectives overall by buffing the rep point gain, it requires that progression traitors don't need to try and mass powergame their objectives to achieve a final objective (or... however final objective works... I haven't gotten it yet, partly because I really don't like powergaming objectives.)
3. Removing easier objectives removes periods of non-interactivity between antags and non-antags, as well as tedium.

However, since easier objectives are being removed, and thus medium level objectives and the rest of the "easy" objectives catagory would be combined, there needs to be new difficult/very difficult objectives. For one, I dislike how prog tot encourages you to hunt down and kill people over and over again for its objectives at this stage, not that antags killing people is bad, but rather, there often are few alternatives to doing so. The kidnapping objectives is a good start, however, progression traitor doesn't really have good gear to be able to kidnap people well, a huge shame, by the way! Nonlethal kidnapping is literally my favorite gimmick as antag, as it encourages actually interesting roleplay. However, nothing comes to mind at the moment, in terms of difficult engaging station sabotages for traitors to do, anyways.

Oh, on that note, make singuloosing a very difficult but highly rewarding objective. Extremely rewarding, considering the risk of the mere existence of a singuloose. Teslaloosing too probably. Considering having an objective that involves the traitor sending in a unironic forced ERT, gunning for the traitor, in exchange for a ton of points and TC, as well.

Bonus! Ideas:
1. A system that allows traitors to request syndicate command for approval of their own objectives, for free (no emagging comms console)! One of the biggest issues of any progression system like this is that the amount of objectives that exist is limited by coding limitations. Allowing traitors to request a special objective of their own creative ideas helps sidestep these issues and encourages progression traitors to encompass intriguing gimmicks! Rewarding people for actually playing the game creativity should be a must for long term enjoyment of the game. For instance, reward an extremely creative moth assistant who, using a briefcase, teleports people straight into an emagged recycler, to be put into a gibber, to cook their steak and then just serve a fuck ton of steak in front of cargo? Although, it is more a daydream, I understand. This shit's hard, and you'd also have to account for the admin's time being busy too, but rewarding creative gimmicks should be a must, somehow. Its one of the most fun things about antags, especially beyond simple and comparatively boring powergaming.
2. Consider making it so non-antags cannot complete objectives if they get their hands on an uplink. There is nothing more lame than a random nonantag who validhunted some poor noob traitor and, instead of trying to cooperating or intimidate the traitor around into completing their various objectives to get traitor items out of, they simply just kill the traitor and do it themselves. In fact, consider removing the purchase of traitor items entirely by non-antags. Traitors should get to decide what traitor gear they want to put into the round. As well, it'd reward actual roleplayers who, instead of murder the antag who happened to have an unlocked uplink, or, god forbid, attempt every possible combination on a known traitor's uplink until it manages to open, actually roleplay their way into it, and gives captive traitors something to hold over greedy security officers. Or, alternatively, you can cooperate with cargo to get enhanced interrogation instead, but that's also fun too. Either way, getting traitor gear beyond what the traitor happened to have on their person becomes much more roleplay focused, and hopefully decreases the amount of security officers with random ebows, as well.
3. Oh, and while you are at it, since easy objectives are gone, you should also consider adding a system where you get to pick what difficulty level of objectives you want to do, or alternatively, get something like 3 medium objectives, 3 hard objectives, 3 very hard objectives (Or perhaps, 1 Easier objective than your reputation, 4 objectives on par with your current rep, 1 objective above your current reputation). This essentially would give you a spread in difficulty of objectives, encouraging players who are apeshit insane to try and go after big, tough, insanely difficult objectives earlier on if they want to skip the tedium, in exchange for having less rep/tc, and thus less gear while attempting to do so. Big risks, big rewards! As well as helping more experienced players feel like they can put those skills they've learned to use, as well. Players whose sole goal is to speedrun final objective will have a lot more to think about now!
4. And on that note, items that are locked at the 500-800 Reputation Range would be a great idea. The rep range I am describing literally unlocks nothing, and is of complete untapped potential, coders. Finally, a good excuse to add broken bullshit that's "balanced" because the traitor had to complete quite a few difficult things to do this, or 50 minutes literally passed in the round. (Alternatively, add a hardcap for passive rep gain at 400 reputation total earned by passive rep, if waiting 50 minutes for a 500 reputation item is too overpowered or whatever.)
5. Alternatively to that footnote of the footnote above, add a dynamic system where each completed objective gives bonus passive rep income for a time (or amount of income increased) dependent on the difficulty of the objective, or something. This would also help encourage players to not feel forced to speedrun traitor objectives, or perhaps encourage them to seek out harder objectives afterwards, because such a system should not stack its passive rep gain with additional completed objectives (For instance. You kill Ian. enjoy 5 minutes of boosted passive reputation gain. Then, if you rush and immediately kill Poly afterwards, you don't get 10 combined minutes of boosted passive rep gain, you simply reset the clock on the 5 minute passive rep gain, as they are the same difficulty as rep objectives). There's no rush, traitors. Sit down, recoup, and maybe take your time to do roleplaying or creative ideas.

Oh fuck, its 4 AM already. Well. I hope you all enjoyed my idea list, because, I think, despite progression traitor's current flaws, it does actually have quite the potential to create quite a lot of fun.
User avatar
Jacquerel
Code Maintainer
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:10 pm
Byond Username: Becquerel

Re: Progression Traitor Changes and Suggestions

Post by Jacquerel » #659523

We have point one on a downstream and it works pretty well.
I have been planning to port it here but it’d need a handful of changes first, won’t be until next year
.
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Progression Traitor Changes and Suggestions

Post by Mothblocks » #659556

It seems like most of this suggestion is about removing/neutering the current objectives in place, when we already have an issue of not having enough impactful objectives. We need to like, double our objectives before we even start to consider killing existing ones.

Bonus idea one exists on Skyrat and it's a neat idea but definitely not something that should be a staple or core to the concept, the game should be enhanced by admins but core mechanics should not be gated behind them. In that respect you can already just adminhelp and if the admin is willing they'll give you the objective, and if they don't then they probably wouldn't have given you one if you requested it through a computer for free anyway
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Progression Traitor Changes and Suggestions

Post by CPTANT » #660075

These are all good ideas, but the problem isn't that nobody has good ideas, it's that nobody is actually picking up coding any of this.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users