State of Dynamic 2023

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Indie-ana Jones
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State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #665188

I wanted to make this thread to have a continuation of the Dynamic discussion we had during the last coderbus meeting, as arguably the Dynamic system is one of the few systems which affects all players, every round. I'll bring up some of the topics just to get the conversation started:

Mainround Antagonists: As of right now, I feel as if a lot of our mainround antagonists have a bit of an issue actually doing... Antagonism. From my personal experience on Sybil, I feel that the majority of the time our most used mainrounds (Traitor and Heretic) don't really end up doing much actual antagonism or play much into creating a greater narrative for the round when given to the majority of players.

While Progtot does have the issue of baiting newer players into giving evidence to security while doing useless tasks like killing pets and putting up posters and the nerf of requiring focuses given to Heretics, I think both of these antags with their nerfs taken into consideration struggle with handling even the most basic and roundstart of crew equipment, namely batons of any kind. Most baton stuns are essentially a one-hit run-ender to these antagonists to the point where being able to succeed at either of these roles while actually having an impact on the round is essentially been reduced to the powergamers of our servers who know the counterplays to those weapons or how to obtain them easily for themselves. While the nerfs given to traitor and heretic were meant to stop powergamers from abusing their strength, I don't think our changes have really stopped them in any way at all, but instead just prevented most people under their skill level from doing anything interesting.

Meanwhile, while the other mainround antagonist options have the ability to mess up and end up being not too much of a threat, even in their failure they manage to at least contribute more to the story of the round than either Traitor or Heretic, as their baseline requirement to pull off the job is generally lower to the point that they'll probably end up doing *something*. I'm unsure of how we could help the less experienced of our playerbase make more of an impact with traitor and heretic, but I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on the matter, be it disagreeing with the issue entirely or possible solutions.

Population Scaling: I think most of us can agree Dynamic currently has a population scaling issue. Too many antagonists on lowpop, and the effects most of those antags can have at highpop are greatly diminished with not much more support to increase their odds at success. Perhaps all we need to do is tweak some numbers, or alternatively it'll require more work.

Time Scaling: I think relying on time alone to scale what Dynamic outputs might not be the greatest of ideas. This often lends itself to spawning a blob on station devoid of air and full of closed firelocks, or long lulls of nothing happening when all threats have been eliminated early on in the round. Surely there must be a better way to determine the crews' current 'status' and then adjust spawns accordingly, right? Time of course could still be a factor, but I think other things should also factor in, perhaps a check on how many crew are alive vs. dead and comparing that to the last time Dynamic checked how the crew was doing, or an idea similar to that. If we can intelligently spawn in antagonists, this might alleviate the issue of mainround antags not doing much of anything by taking the pressure off of them and having validhunter attention shifted elsewhere for a time.

Variety: I think our rounds could use some more variety, but I guess that ultimately means adding more antagonists. I haven't seen Paradox Clone yet, and while I might personally have issues for the total amount of antagonism it actually ends up doing, I appreciate having something new to shake things up and keep the crew off-guard.

Antag Touch-Ups: After the feature freeze, the antags who ranked consistently low on being both fun to play as and against could use some touch-ups. Sentient Disease and Nightmare come to mind.

Overall, I'm interested in hearing more discussion on our now only gamemode. What do you think we should change? How do you think we should change it? Is there an antag you think needs adjustment? Please comment your thoughts!
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by CPTANT » #665321

Dynamic should spawn single antagonist type rounds again from time to time. Just have a couple of rounds of plain old traitor again.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #665542

Also, some notes from Mothblocks:

- Making the dynamic system for spawning things more complex or "smarter" would be a bad idea. This makes maintaining and debugging the system a pain in the arse, which is why Dynamic was simplified over time as opposed to being more complex. In essence: don't try making it more complex than it is now, its a bad idea.

- Dynamic works better with the more variety it has, simple as. Look to add more light antagonists to improve round variety, we don't give Dynamic much to pull from currently.

- When adding/renovating midround antags, don't make them too complex. The player shouldn't have to skim through an entire wiki page to understand how to play their role and be effective.
Last edited by Indie-ana Jones on Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #665694

I was gonna have a long-winded and well-formatted thing about my thoughts, but I'll just make bullet points because I couldn't make it a coherent paragraph.

DISCLAIMER, FILTHY MRP WHO DOESN'T PLAY ANTAGS MUCH BUT DOES HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE OF GETTING SCREWED BY THEM:
  • It feels like progtot's point cost is balanced around old tot, every single progtot is capable of destroying the station via their finale and I don't feel like the costs of traitor is matched with their destructive potential.
  • Progtot punishes the whole station hard whenever a security officer does the "let the very obvious antag go to create more threat later on" thing, which is sad because I actually like when sec does that.
  • I have never seen a progtot call in additional threats outside of when the progtot is already steamrolling the station.
  • I don't even bother playing when it's sub 30 pop because every single time, it's the lovely "upwards of half of the crew are traitors" thing. I imagine it's the same for others.
  • There's hardly a point of adding more objectives (JUST ONE MORE LANE GUYS!) if people are just going to gamer the easy ones (poster and pet killing) or sit in a closet for 30 minutes before doing something.
  • No one does the assassination objective on Manuel because it pays out dogshit rep even though you gotta either spawn in a good weapon or use your job to get you something that can incapacitate someone.
  • Re-add old traitor and split progtraitor into its own antag. I don't get why we can't have old traitor be a low to mid threat antag and then have progtraitor be a mid to high threat antag depending on how skilled the progtraitor is.
  • Re-add thief but tweak the rules to let them be more forceful to complete their objectives, give them something to track their theft objectives (like a pinpointer), let them pick what kind of thief they want to be, and let them buy stuff (perhaps even non lethal/less than lethal and stealth stuff only)
  • Let there be a chance that rounds roll like pre-dynamic where it would just be blob, or changeling, etc. Ironically enough having every round being dynamic makes rounds more predictable and less dynamic.
The paradox clone was a good step in the right direction to add a low threat antag but we need more.

Sometimes I think about how Goon had the "miscreant" role, which gave you some fluff text and an idea to be annoying. Dunno how it would work on TG though. Nevermind miscreant role actually got removed from goon.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #665792

Its really just that dynamic will make a similar amount of antags with 80 threat on both lowpop and highpop, where on lowpop 12 traitors means 2/3 of the crew are evil and on highpop those 12 traitors will be outnumbered 5 to 1 in most situations.

Lowpop should probably make antags cost more threat and highpop make them cost less

I also wish threat would frontload antags a little harder because seeing 1-2 traitors roundstart and 5 midround sleepers is disappointing
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Armhulen » #665803

CPTANT wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:38 pm Dynamic should spawn single antagonist type rounds again from time to time. Just have a couple of rounds of plain old traitor again.
This was on the community meeting and I really liked the idea.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #665825

blackdav123 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:27 pm Its really just that dynamic will make a similar amount of antags with 80 threat on both lowpop and highpop, where on lowpop 12 traitors means 2/3 of the crew are evil and on highpop those 12 traitors will be outnumbered 5 to 1 in most situations.

Lowpop should probably make antags cost more threat and highpop make them cost less

I also wish threat would frontload antags a little harder because seeing 1-2 traitors roundstart and 5 midround sleepers is disappointing
The more midrounds Dynamic has to pull from, the less likely sleeper gets picked from my understanding, which is why adding more light midrounds would help the scenario.

Some additional thoughts from an LRP Sybil perspective, given new context of MRP's current experience:

- Progtot and probably Heretic are much more likely to reach their final objective than on LRP. On LRP, final objectives are extremely rare, but MRP seems to reach it consistently, probably due to how antags are treated and the rules preventing/allowing players to actively hunt them down.

- Scaling sucks for progtot on lowpop, mainly due to the massive influx of midround traitors which can be spammed regardless of pop/threat due to their relative cheap value and the fact that Dynamic can't spawn much of anything else on lowpop due to population requirements. This can't really be solved until we dilute the midround antag pool more, however, as to lower the amount of midround traitors would lower the amount of everything else. Though maybe we should just lower that rate more for lowpop, and increase it for highpop for now?

- Likewise, highpop doesn't scale well either, not providing enough threats in a timely manner to oppose a large-sized crew unless the right spawns roll quickly.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #667342

Not a huge fan of how many roundstart antags are rolled as midround, syndie sleepers and heretic smugglers and the like. I think its pretty jarring for the player in question, and doesn't really give that sort of planning phase that I'm into. I think ghost antags are better, and the changeling meteor is a good example of this. I'd rather we have less roundstart antags happening midround, and more happening at roundstart.

I also miss the tailored (and generally unvarying) amount of antagonists that we got out of the old traitor or traitor/changeling mode.

And finally, and this is a personal thing, I think the flavor of having a huge mash of different antagonists every round kinda breaks the verisimilitude, because on a so called "normal shift" that the crew of ss13 goes though, nothing goes wrong, and the shift we play is the shift everything hits the fan. Before you can say, "This is the shift the sydicate planted agents aboard the station, spreading chaos and disrupting the station with sabotage to the point where they had to call the emergency shuttle to escape" or "This is the shift the dark cult rose up and summoned Nar-sie from her dark realm." Sure its fun to have a load of antags every now and again, "This is the shift that miraculously every threat (sapient or not) decided to launch their attack on space station 13" but when its every round, I think it hurts the theming.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by oranges » #667446

99% of midround antags are shit
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Pandarsenic » #667458

Was there ever a fix for Potato Blights, where the game (due to lack of sec or total players) has no legal rolls except Traitor Injections, making it turn (sometimes literally) half the station's population into traitors in 5-threat increments?
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #667470

Round ID: 200809
Shift Duration: 38 minutes and 18 seconds
Station Integrity: 95.4%
Total Population: 57

Evacuation Rate: 38 (66.7%)
(on emergency shuttle): 37 (64.9%)
Survival Rate: 48 (84.2%)
First Death: Mothmock, Assistant, at Security Office (78,157,3). Damage taken: 150/0/0/67/0.
Threat level: 58.9
Threat left: 42.9
Executed rules:
Roundstart - Traitors: -8 threat
Latejoin - Syndicate Infiltrator: -5 threat
Midround - Syndicate Sleeper Agent: -3 threat

A whopping one roundstart traitor during peak hours

Is three antags enough?
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by CPTANT » #667502

I think what we really need are templates corresponding to the old game modes, things like:

Traitor
Changeling
Traitor + ling
rev
etc
Than add "mixed" into that group as the dynamic we have now.

I think this really gives admins the abillity to finetune what antags they want again.

Also unrelated, but a simple fix to population scaling is really needed, less antags on lowpop and more on highpop.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #667659

Yeah, I think having themed rounds again would be neat to shake things up some. Could probably still let some of the midrounds spawn as well during it too, since midrounds did show up during secret back in the day.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #667726

While looking at this I decided to take a look at how Goon handled midrounds and their sleeper agent is a lot more badass.
Enemy Signal Detected
A Syndicate radio station temporarily hijacked our communications. Be wary of individuals acting strangely.
Everyone tuned to the Common frequency, 145.9, hears a peculiar noise consisting of a series of chimes, then numbers pronounced by a robotic voice, and then another series of chimes. Depending on the chances, a small number of crew may awaken as Syndicate sleeper agents, which are essentially Traitors with random objectives and no uplink!

Unless it was admin-triggered, this event can only happen after the 30 minute mark. In addition, it cannot happen in modes that do not allow late-join traitors, i.e. it can occur in the Traitor, Spy Theft, Mixed (Action), Mixed (Mild), Wizard and Conspiracy modes. On the roleplay servers (i.e. Goonstation Roleplay 3: Morty and Goonstation Roleplay 4: Sylvester), this event can only appear if only 10% or less of current antags are alive. On the non-RP servers, this event can happen regardless of antag numbers.

Though the Cyborgs and AI can hear the signal, it can't actually convert them over to the Syndicate; in other words, only humans can be awakened. Moreover, if said human has a radio without access to the 149.5 frequency or doesn't have a radio at all, they won't hear the signal. This event respects antag preferences; if someone has Traitor set to off in their character preferences, they can't be converted. Furthermore, it can't make people who can't spawn as antag (i.e. Security Officer, Head of Security, Nanotrasen Security Operative, and Security Assistant) a sleeper. Finally, there is a 50% chance for one person to be awakened, 25% for two people, and 25% for no one at all--the paranoia!
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by saprasam » #675884

dynamic in 2023 is wretched due to one simple fact
the midround spawns are horrible

the amount of times where the midround antags at the end of the round report screen where it's just
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Heretic Smuggler -6 Threat
Space dragon -10 Threat
is baffling to me

there is a problem when the weighting system is so fucked that it picks progtot & heretic (two antags that are inherently gimped when they are obtained midround, especially heretic. heretic can barely do anything as a latejoin), and the only actual midround threat that spawns is space dragon. only rarely does it ever pick blob or xenos, and the other midround antags literally never spawn without administrative intervention. when's the last time you've seen a revenant? a nightmare? a space ninja? it's been weeks. weeks since i've last seen one.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #675988

saprasam wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:34 am dynamic in 2023 is wretched due to one simple fact
the midround spawns are horrible

the amount of times where the midround antags at the end of the round report screen where it's just
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Midround traitor -4 Threat
Heretic Smuggler -6 Threat
Space dragon -10 Threat
is baffling to me

there is a problem when the weighting system is so fucked that it picks progtot & heretic (two antags that are inherently gimped when they are obtained midround, especially heretic. heretic can barely do anything as a latejoin), and the only actual midround threat that spawns is space dragon. only rarely does it ever pick blob or xenos, and the other midround antags literally never spawn without administrative intervention. when's the last time you've seen a revenant? a nightmare? a space ninja? it's been weeks. weeks since i've last seen one.
having more blobs and xenos wouldnt solve this problem, the main issue is that so many of the minor midrounds would work much better if they were frontloaded as roundstart antags rather than trickling antags in one by one

rounds tend to only have about 3 roundstart antags, and it feels really shitty knowing that often the odds of rolling antag are better for ghosts and latejoiners than roundstart players.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by saprasam » #676003

blackdav123 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:25 pm
saprasam wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:34 am words
having more blobs and xenos wouldnt solve this problem, the main issue is that so many of the minor midrounds would work much better if they were frontloaded as roundstart antags rather than trickling antags in one by one

rounds tend to only have about 3 roundstart antags, and it feels really shitty knowing that often the odds of rolling antag are better for ghosts and latejoiners than roundstart players.
this is also a more favorable outcome. it makes you feel like there is a tangible threat roundstart instead of 3 random dudes slaving away at objectives that accomplish nothing to add tension to a round
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Armhulen » #676010

I agree with blackdav and the dynamic is fully configurable to allow that
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by sinfulbliss » #676044

is it me or is roundstart revs pretty rare now

and cult is a bit rarer too
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #676087

It's the power of true RNG. The chances haven't been modified, but RNG can be a bitch sometimes and be extremely repetitive. And I also agree with blackdav.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Pandarsenic » #676352

Keep in mind that these gamemodes may have requirements to run at all (heads of staff, security population) which aren't being met, just to ATTEMPT rolling them at all
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by sinfulbliss » #676433

Indie-ana Jones wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:29 pm The chances haven't been modified
A birdie told me dynamic is tinkered with behind the scenes to adjust weights but I could be insane
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by warbluke » #676435

Time for an emotional appeal in the form of an anecdote!
>Be me, security officer
>Arrest a tot for selling X4 and blowing up R&D when I tried to stop him for a search
>Head back out
>See a guy wearing cablecuffs and a spear on the floor next to him
>"Hey pal, what happened?"
>"Beepsky didn't like when I hit him"
>Decide that I'll trust Beepsky, search the guy and find a hand tele
>Put him in a holding cell while I go get acting captain to see about what to do for this grand theft charge and the other guy
>Acting Captain is nowhere to be found (They were a tot and busy doing tot objectives)
>Let the guy out since I can't well perma him without command approval
>He immediately grabs a spear and chases me as I'm trying to bring a dead roundstart perma-prisoner to medical
>Get merc'd because I am unrobust (I should not be playing security)
>He was a tot
>He strips me, another tot comes by and helps himself to the loot
>I am taken to med
>A friendly doctor goes "I'll take him off your hands!"
>The doctor was a tot
>My body is disposed of
>I play ghost basketball, it was very good I rate the feature 10/10 in terms of minigames
The lowpop situation is not great (1 unrobust officer vs 5 tots including the acting captain)
No idea how you would fix it though.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #676439

warbluke wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:45 am -snip-
basically the game asks "Is there above 15 pop?" >no "Is there any ghosts?" >no "Only antag left is sleeper agent" and repeats that every 10 minutes.


I think the best solutions would be to lock all midrounds on lowpop and try and frontload the threat, effectively turning it into the classic secret gamemode.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #676441

Because a lot of this is esoteric knowledge only known to code divers, here is the required player counts for each midround to spawn. Also note that some of these require living "enemies" (antag protected roles like captain or security) or they will not spawn, and also some of these can only spawn much later into a round.

No population requirements: Sleeper agent, midround wizard, midround nukies, obsessed, paradox clone

15 players required: Nightmare, revenant, space changeling

20 players required: Pirates (light)

25 players required: Malf AI, blob, blob infection, xenomorphs, space dragon, abductors, sentient disease, pirates (heavy)

27 players required: Spiders

30 players required: Ninja

The only ones of these that do not require any ghosts are sleeper agent, obsessed, malf ai, and blob infection. This leaves sleeper agent and obsessed as the only rolls for the game to spend the remaining 30 or so threat on in lowpop rounds.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by BrianBackslide » #676808

I keep sleeper agent off because it fucks with my vibe. I either want to be antag or not, but other players might be different.
I've noticed I roll obsessed a lot more recently. However, I turned that off too because it's anti-fun to play a role that actively punishes you for playing it, and again for failing.

I bring this up because I wonder what population metrics at mid and highpop have certain antags off.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by CPTANT » #677582

I am annoyed half the time I roll sleeper agent because it totally messes up your flow. You are a crew member doing stuff, ohw enjoy being antag with no time to plan at all, enjoy your 5-15 minutes before the shuttle is here.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #678232

CPTANT wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:21 am I am annoyed half the time I roll sleeper agent because it totally messes up your flow. You are a crew member doing stuff, ohw enjoy being antag with no time to plan at all, enjoy your 5-15 minutes before the shuttle is here.
why do you have it on?
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #684416

please just spend threat on roundstarts
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #684419

Checking that round it looks like it rolled heavies but nobody hit yes on the prompt for them lol
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by blackdav123 » #684421

Mothblocks wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 6:09 pm Checking that round it looks like it rolled heavies but nobody hit yes on the prompt for them lol
am I looking at this wrong or is sentient disease the """"""heavy"""""" it tried and failed to roll
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #684454

Yes because spawning a sentient disease in the beginning of the round sucks--the problem is sentient disease itself but heavy is the best classification for the way it exists now
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Kendrickorium
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Kendrickorium » #685102

just had 8 traitors out of 20 people.

thats ridiculous.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #685104

I still don't like dynamic.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #685107

back in the days of secret, antag scaling matained a good antag to crew ratio with a little bit of randomness is the form of latejoins.
In a traitor/changeling round, there would be about 1 traitor for every 12 people, and 1 changling for every 24 people, with a minimum of one of each. In a 55 person round, we would expect 4 traitors and 2 changelings roundstart. Likewise about 1/12 latejoins would be traitors, and 1/24 latejoins would be lings. Midrounds would come from random events.
The wide variability that leads to half the station being traitors in lowpop and can lead to there being 1 traitor among a station of 55 leads to some sucky rounds, and the slow trickle feeding of antags as aposed to round start feels so bad.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #685247

Kendrickorium wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 2:31 pm just had 8 traitors out of 20 people.

thats ridiculous.
It's to the point now where I tend to avoid anything less than 30 people because it just starts getting absurd. Yesterday we had a shift on Northstar where over half of the crew were sleeper agents. Then the same thing happened the next night with a similar population.

Latenight is already frustrating enough because people become apathetic and will completely ignore someone getting murdered in hopes that they themselves don't get murdered, meanwhile there is no sec and AI is likely subverted. Combine this with heads of staff being able to roll traitor (which is a bit unbalanced but is fine during normal pop hours IMO), and you have a situation where the acting captain basically gets to choose how much they want to fuck with the crew. This basically happens every single lowpop round. I had both extremes over the last two days. We had an acting captain RD traitor blasting people with a modsuit while he plasma-flooded and bombed, and we had another shift the next day where we had an acting captain traitor HOP who was actually chill (aside from one poor bastard who was his target) lowpop almost always goes like that.

I have rarely ever seen a latenight lowpop round not end with one or two traitors going from department to department, killing everyone after grinding for max TC as acting captain, meanwhile, everyone else was just trying to test out things that they didn't or couldn't do during peak hours.

Dynamic, it's threats, and the antagonist themselves are balanced around there being 60 morons all running around doing stuff, and it just falls apart hard the lower the player numbers get.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #685248

you need round ids
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by GPeckman » #685298

With regards to heretic in particular, the main problem is that its too strong on lowpop (and IIRC can't even be rolled below 25 pop because of how many people a heretic needs to kill to ascend) but too weak on highpop. There are several reasons why heretic is weak on highpop (competition for heretic rifts, weak earlygame) but I'd say the biggest one is the lack of stealth options. With traitor, you've got radio jammers, sleepy pens, suppressors, and other items that exist for the sole purpose of helping you take down your opponent quietly. Heretics have almost none of that. Only void heretic has any tools for silencing victims, for example. The lack of stealth wouldn't be as much of a problem if heretics could consistently win straight fights with the crew, but they can't. Especially not on highpop.
Indie-ana Jones wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:53 pm Is there an antag you think needs adjustment?
Obsessed. As it currently stands, you can roll obsessed even if you're already an antag. This means that a perfectly good antag round can be copmletely derailed by a massive mood debuff and the slowdown that goes along with it, unless you waste precious time trying to get close to your new target. Which may not even be feasible if you're hiding in maints because security is hunting you.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #685400

you could ask armhulen what he thinks about making obsessed only hit non antags i bet he would give a smart answer
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #685706

round R205712 had 6 traitors and 1 changeling on a 20 person shift.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #686107

Ok, this is useful. For instance, from here I can gather Stowaway Changeling's requirements look a bit bonkers, I can adjust those.

Furthermore the latejoin timer here is acting oddly. I forget if this is just its minimum bound but either way two latejoins 12 minutes after each other is Strange.
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.595] DYNAMIC: FAIL: Provocateur failed acceptable: threat_level (49.5) < requirement (101)
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.595] DYNAMIC: FAIL: Heretic Smuggler failed acceptable: threat_level (49.5) < requirement (101)
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.595] DYNAMIC: FAIL: Stowaway Changeling failed acceptable: threat_level (49.5) < requirement (101)
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.595] DYNAMIC: Sydney Sahrin was selected to roll for a latejoin ruleset from the following list: Syndicate Infiltrator.
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.595] DYNAMIC: A latejoin rulset triggered successfully, the next latejoin injection will happen at 18719.5 round time.
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.603] DYNAMIC: Injected a Latejoin ruleset Syndicate Infiltrator.
[2023-05-15 13:56:00.603] DYNAMIC: Sneakytime/(Sydney Sahrin) joined the station, and was selected by the Syndicate Infiltrator ruleset.
[2023-05-15 14:02:16.561] DYNAMIC: FAIL: Provocateur failed acceptable: threat_level (49.5) < requirement (70)
[2023-05-15 14:02:16.561] DYNAMIC: FAIL: Heretic Smuggler failed acceptable: threat_level (49.5) < requirement (50)
[2023-05-15 14:02:16.561] DYNAMIC: Shouty Rousseau was selected to roll for a latejoin ruleset from the following list: Syndicate Infiltrator and Stowaway Changeling.
[2023-05-15 14:02:16.561] DYNAMIC: A latejoin rulset triggered successfully, the next latejoin injection will happen at 29343 round time.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Mothblocks » #686108

As for the traitors I'm still thinking of a good way to address that that doesn't make the systems too complicated
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by sinfulbliss » #686220

I for one love the 8 person traitor 20-pop rounds.
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by TheRex9001 » #686492

My main issue with dynamic is that 5 tots on 20 pop is insane but 5 tots on 90 pop is practically a greenshift
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #686547

to make a correction to my previous ratio, the previous generation for how many traitors there were was:
1 traitor for every 12 people + 2 traitors
OR
1 traitor for every 6 people
whichever was less, with a minimum of 1 traitor. This math gives us the following outcomes,
1-11: 1 traitor
12–17: 2 traitors
18-23: 3 traitors
24-35: 4 traitors
36-47: 5 traitors
48-59: 6 traitors
60-71: 7 traitors
72-83: 8 traitors
84-95: 9 traitors
96-107: 10 traitors
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Re: State of Dynamic 2023

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #696977

Not sure if you are still interested in that data mothblocks, but this round had a staggering amount of traitors for seemingly not that much threat https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/211473
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