/tg/Station 13

by **Ikarrus** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:58 am #81603

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Gang_War

A violent turf war between two rival factions has erupted on the station! Similar to Revolution, there are Gang Bosses who recruit other crew members to join their gang.

In order for a gang to claim victory, they must successfully execute a hostile takeover of the station's systems with a Dominator machine. If the shuttle is allowed to evacuate the station before either gang can achieve this, both gangs will lose.

by **lumipharon** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:34 am #81615

removing NON weapons? Edit: If it's a normal traitor uplink, then yeah I can see that.

Also the wiki is bit bare, and I haven't had a chance to play gang again yet.

Are normal gang members still unable to see gang icons? I also thought that was a good part of it, which helped limit gangs form just converting as many as possible.
How else has it changed from when it was first implemented?

by **Scones** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:00 am #81616

Science gang is CRAZY strong because they get free borgs/TTV bombs in the first 10 or so minutes, but at least half of that will be fixed by the emag/other shit getting removed from the Gang uplink

Can't wait to see gang outfits and stuff.

by **onleavedontatme** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:25 am #81620

I've not gotten a chance to play gang yet so my feedback is probably worthless, but please don't outright remove uplinks or it will probably suffer the same problems as rev (largely powerless and disorganized crew getting mass implanted by security at the first sign of trouble).

Maybe implants being so easy to obtain is the real issue, but I know you agreed with me that rev felt "padded down" and I'd hate to see this mode suffer the same fate.

by **imblyings** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:32 am #81622

The current meta already seems to be rolling mobs of gangs converting and killing their way through the hallways. Which isn't wrong in itself but I don't think anyone should expect any sort of subtlety from this roundtype.

Security is currently getting blown the fuck out during each gang mode, about as bad as the UN in an african civil war, although that may be due to gang roboticists with emags and the spraycans, as well as security players being unsure of what to do.

by **Cheimon** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:43 am #81635

Yeah, I mean, catch both mob bosses alive and somehow stop both gangs tearing in to get them back?

Good luck with that.

by **Incomptinence** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:34 am #81643

Sending the mob bosses off on the same shuttle might work.

I don't think the loyal should need to go for a double dissolution really being a potential deciding force that picks the winner should be enough right?

by **imblyings** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:54 pm #81667

I take back what I said about the lack of subtlety or at least, ultra-violence and violence involving security. It appears my initial impression involved certain players making the gang rounds incredibly violent and not the round mechanics.

by **Ikarrus** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:14 pm #81668

Yeah, just observed a round where a strong security team managed to identify and arrest both gang leaders, and practically secured a security victory.

Technically, they still lost because they took one of the gang members to centcom while leaving one on station during evac, but I consider this to be a security victory.

I updated the gang wiki page to include some strategies security used to identify and catch the bosses.

by **hanshansenhansson** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:53 pm #81671

They need a more silent way to convert. Flashes are loud as fuck, and if you start with a job without any access, it get's extremely hard to flash someone without other people knowing.
Especially, as you need to walk up close to flash them. Nearly impossible with non-braindead people.

Why not have the spraycan do it with 2 tile range or so, "tag" homies to get them into your gang. Or a simple fist to the face to get them to join

by **Ikarrus** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:59 pm #81673

Small update: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8900

by **ThatSlyFox** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:23 pm #81675

Beating people on the head to deconvert them is, imo, terrible. As was shown that round officers were just testing people's antag status by beating them.

by **Jacough** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:52 pm #81697

Ikarrus wrote:https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Gang_War

It's back, albeit in a simpler, stripped down form. Let me know what you think.

I'm considering removing the uplinks as people are saying it's too strong. Or at least removing all non-weapons from it.

I'd personally make it so they can only spawn ghettoish weapons and equipment. Stuff like revolvers that come loaded with only 2-4 rounds, uzis (for drive bys), an esword that has a habit of flickering off periodically, emags with a risk of giving you a tiny shock just strong enough to knock you down for a couple of seconds

by **hanshansenhansson** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:39 pm #81824

Gangs should need to tag territory (=rooms). Every room gives the boss a passive TC income.

by **Loonikus** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:30 pm #81829

hanshansenhansson wrote:Gangs should need to tag territory (=rooms). Every room gives the boss a passive TC income.

So long as the stuff they could order was balanced and more gangster appropriate, this would be pretty neat. Think along the lines of switchblades, armored gang clothing, Uzis, malt liquor, a lowrider, blunts, bling, hi-point pistols, and other gangbanging supplies.

Another possibility would be to make some rooms more valuable than others and give more telecrystals. Any punk ass nigga can hold disposals, but only real ballin' OGs can hold the bridge.

by **hanshansenhansson** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:40 pm #81832

Yes, stuff like that. Would encourage more direct clashes, and the gang items make gang members slightly visible to the other gang. Currently we got a bit of a spy vs spy thing going on.

by **Loonikus** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:39 pm #81840

Well, it would allow the gang bosses to decide how overt they want their gang to be. If they wanted to be sneaky, they could just hand out little things like switchblades. If they were hard motha fuckas, they could be doing drive by shootings in their lowriders. Choices like these go a long way to promote the kind of emergent gameplay that SS13 is so known and loved for.

by **Not-Dorsidarf** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:30 pm #81852

Gangs are definitely weaker than revs, even with uplinks.

I mean, I ended basil's gang round today by droppinga beartrap and welding him to death after his captain attack failed.

by **lumipharon** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:31 pm #81862

Pretty sure Pap removed the uzi because 'it's the same as the c-20r'. Same thing almost happened to the revolver/mateba.

Anyway, if the hotline weapons get merged, that's a perfect source of kit.

by **Drynwyn** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:44 am #81893

Played as a Gang Boss earlier today- the round ended super quick when Miku Frost and I randomly tried to flash each other within a minute of the start, at which point I ran around randomly flashing people then telling them to "GET MIKU YOU CUNTS". It would help if the conversion method for gangs was more subtle, like being near graffiti laid down by the gang leader for a given time.

by **Steelpoint** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:19 am #81902

Goonstation's way of doing this is interesting, a gang leader gets to deploy a 'closet' or something to mark their territory. Anyone can willingly become a gang member (I think barring command/security roles) and by default Security won't interfere with the affairs of gangs unless they break any laws.

by **Miauw** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:56 pm #81957

Steelpoint wrote:Goonstation's way of doing this is interesting, a gang leader gets to deploy a 'closet' or something to mark their territory. Anyone can willingly become a gang member (I think barring command/security roles) and by default Security won't interfere with the affairs of gangs unless they break any laws.

>implying /tg/ security won't get valids asap

by **Cheridan** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:01 pm #81958

I would really really really like voluntary gang membership like Steelpoint mentioned. The problem with Rev is that everyone gets caught up in the conflict whether they want to or not, so guys who just want to goof off in the bar, or newbies who don't even know what a Revolution is are forced into playing.

Much like how Double Agent managed to be 10x as destructive as Traitor, as all the Agents said "well if I kill EVERYONE then I'll kill my target and the guy hunting me", Rev Vs Rev is twice as chaotic as Rev. The gangs don't really have any cohesion from what I've seen, so it all feels less like a "gang" and more like "a hide-your-wife-and-children Arkham jailbreak".

by **Akkryls** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:49 pm #81972

The way locker code works, being in a locker means a gang leader is off-station.
We had a round just now where one leader went into a locker and the other went to mining. GeeGee.

by **omnitricks** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:38 pm #82560

I like gangs now. The only problem is that it still feels like rev. I mean I was a leader of a gang against another gang and I still end up bashing the other gang members heads to try and deconvert them before I can convert them to my gang.

by **Septavius** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:47 pm #82564

Takes the best gamemode and adds another team to it, perfect.

by **bandit** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:43 pm #82775

Drynwyn wrote:Played as a Gang Boss earlier today- the round ended super quick when Miku Frost and I randomly tried to flash each other within a minute of the start, at which point I ran around randomly flashing people then telling them to "GET MIKU YOU CUNTS". It would help if the conversion method for gangs was more subtle, like being near graffiti laid down by the gang leader for a given time.

Yeah this is how all gang rounds have gone in my experience. It is literally a dice roll of "is this person you are flashing the gang boss?" And because of rapidfire gotta convert 'em all, it tends to happen soon.

It would IMO be better if gangs had a size limit, so you would actually have to be selective about who you flash instead of running around like a maniac.

by **Ikarrus** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:14 pm #82778

IMO, the biggest issue gang has right now are the short rounds with abrupt ends, and gang members having nothing to do but murderbone others. Changing the objective from simply eliminating the enemy boss to claiming resources/territory instead could fix this.

It may be a while until I can push a new update, though.

by **Ikarrus** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:02 am #82803

WIP update https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9058

by **hanshansenhansson** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:16 am #82811

Love it

by **Tokiko2** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:39 am #82817

Have you considered lowering the playercount requirements for the new version? Sounds like it could work well in lower pops with the whole territory control and team managing.

by **lumipharon** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:16 pm #82862

If you tied gang size to supply and gang income, it would better limit gang size - you could also use it to scale better with server pop.

Something like a supply cost to convert people to the gang, scaled off current number of gang members, and vs total crew pop.
So the larger your gang gets, the more expensive it gets to recruit new members. Additionally, the larger the gang is vs the total pop, the more expensive it gets.
ie: A 10 man gang takes far less points to get a new member compared to a 20 man gang, and a 5 man gang recruitin on a server with 20 people would be more expensive then if the server had 40 people.

And/or you could have an upkeep system - the more members you have, the more it reduces your income.

Both options means there's a balance to strike between getting new members, and spending points on kit.

We also need some of the weapons that were in that hotline miami PR, as gangtool items. Bunch of thugs with baseball bats or machetes is pretty great.

by **Ikarrus** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:42 pm #82867

All good suggestions, and all of them are options to take if the game mode needs more tweaking down the line. (it probably will, but I'd like to see where it sits first.)

by **cocothegogo** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:59 pm #82870

apparently the janitor can't clean graffiti off the wall maybe the security team can use those nanotrasen posters to cover up graffiti to unclaim an area because you don't see them used as they're kinda useless decoration when supply points could be used on something more useful

by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:00 pm #82871

So can we remove rev now? Id rather have one or the other, but not both.

by **Ikarrus** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:04 pm #82872

apparently the janitor can't clean graffiti off the wall

It looks like that's just a bug. I've fixed it in the upcoming update.

by **Ikarrus** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:17 am #82908

Update is ready to go!

Check out to soon-to-be-updated wiki page!
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Ikarrus/sandbox

by **Septavius** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:28 am #82909

rad, can't wait to see it ingame.

by **Amelius** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:47 pm #83101

It's pretty fun, but I feel like the rounds tend to be absolute stomps, because one gang head is always far less experienced than the other, often resulting in one converting the entire station while the other converts a few people.

Why not have two gang heads on each side?

by **Ikarrus** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:20 pm #83107

Amelius wrote:It's pretty fun, but I feel like the rounds tend to be absolute stomps, because one gang head is always far less experienced than the other, often resulting in one converting the entire station while the other converts a few people.

Why not have two gang heads on each side?

New update allows bosses to promote additional bosses. For now it's being left as an option for the boss if he wants help or if he wants to solely direct their gang.

by **Not-Dorsidarf** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:11 pm #83137

Can you make the Pro-NT posters deny an area to gangfitti unless ripped? That way sec can lay down the law by proving they're the ones in control.

Unless they're dead.

They're always dead.

by **Amelius** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:36 pm #83163

I feel like the 50% tagging of the station is insufficient, since it entails that both sides can completely avoid conflict with the other and still win. Maybe up it to a 60% requirement?

And good on you for the lieutenant thing.

by **Alex Crimson** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:02 pm #83164

I very much doubt there will ever be a situation where both gangs reach 50% at the same time. You can also remove opposing gang tags. I imagine there will be large areas highly contested and fights will break out.

by **Ikarrus** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:16 pm #83167

Not to mention the presence of the large neutral third party crew and security forces eager to stamp out any kind of gang activity, especially when you're leaving obvious territorial markers.

I imagine the early round have the gangs lay low to avoid being caught by security early on. As the round matures and both gangs grow in power, security's role diminishes into the background as the two gangs knock heads.

Also, one of these days I want to figure out if it's possible to draw a map of your territory in-game so you can see your spread at a glance, instead of relying on a massive list of names.

by **Allohsnackbar** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:42 pm #83170

Personally I feel their needs to be SOME mechanic preventing Security from going "muh valids" the second gang is confirmed, and similarily, some mechanic discouraging gang members treating it like rev and attacking security without provocation.

This post was deleted by Ikarrus on Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:00 pm. Top

This post was deleted by Ikarrus on Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:00 pm.

by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:03 pm #83174

Recently played 2 full rounds of gang with the currency and pens stuff. No real complaints. Maybe having a melee weapon as something you could buy would be nice. Like the metal bats NT station had.

by **lumipharon** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:06 pm #83177

NT bats were 10/10 hilarious when they had the KO chance - gangs of thugs pulling bats out of their POCKETS and dunking people with guns and e-swords.

by **Ikarrus** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:27 am #83247

Update 4 is up https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9112

Major Changes
- Increased win condition to require 66% control
- Added a switchblade. A relatively cheap and decently robust melee weapon for gangsters.
- Limited gang spraycan use to 15
- Promotions now start off cheap at 20 influence but get more expensive the more people you promote. As a consequence, you can only promote up to 3 lieutenants.

by **omnitricks** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:34 pm #83304

By the look of it in previous rounds, it seems you can still win a gang round by killing the opposing gang leader with the added step of destroying the body in some way. Not sure if this is an oversight or intended given how you've expressed victory should come from tagging.