/tg/Station 13

Oh, so what about meta-station makes it the most popular map besides for social inertia. Is there anything from Mehta that in particular makes it feel better to play?

Woah, Deja Vu:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30102

In all seriousness I have no idea. My best guess is that Meta has no big gimmicks compared to the other maps. Even Delta has size and complexity, but that's in comparison to Meta so it all circles back.

its an anagram of "meat"

Also an anagram of 'team'.

Most Efficient Total Area

social inertia, people used to say the same thing about box.

so your saying to get rid of meta we need to put it on a planet?

cuz i think a map that takes places on a hot planet would be cool to contrast nicebox

I want a gas giant station like cloud city. Make it a plasma gas giant too so the whole map can light on fire if you dump oxy cans outside.

The thing is, people only said Box was best when it was compared to pre-Box maps, which largely Also Sucked.

When Meta was released, it IMMEDIATELY picked up a sizable following despite Box Inertia. I think some of what makes it work is...

• Population: It doesn't struggle at low, medium, or high population values. It might feel a little empty on ultra-lowpop (10 or fewer players), but every station does unless we bring back MiniStation (btw bring back MiniStation)
• The central ring is better than Box's. You have, in essence, a ring of lobbies - places of public interface between departments. Departments are connected or adjacent in logical ways, but the only really isolated areas are the remote engineering/atmos lobbies and the hidden janitorial closet.
• Cool stuff in maint. Personally, I think this is a bit too much presently, but at the very least there's always space to clean out and set up whatever gimmick you might want to, plus the abandoned commissary if you want something more public-facing.
• Maint can get you anywhere you want, but you'll almost always have to do dips into the main hallways where you risk being spotted
• It's free of the jank of the still-in-refinement multi-Z

It's imo default done right. The only other non-gimmick map is arguably Delta, which has weird maint sprawl everywhere.

My two favorite things are the cargo bay and the bar/kitchen being in the same room.

The cargo bay is just right. It’s not pointlessly massive, like deltas. It’s not cramped in places, like birdshot’s. It doesn’t have too many enterances, like icebox and tram. The delivery office is a good size, with plenty of packaging paper to last you all shift, plus the department mail chutes are super nice.

Pretty much the only thing I don’t like about metastation cargo is that all you have to do to get into the cargo bay itself is to unwrench the orm.

Plus, any map that has the bar and the kitchen in the same room is one I’m going to like a lot more. I hate when they are separate, the bar on icebox is almost never even slightly busy.

Some other thoughts:
* it plays pretty well at all pop levels
* the map is just the right size
* no z-levels
* lots of windows
* maints are large enough to set up in but not large enough that people spent ten minutes looking for a blob
* it doesn’t feel overly clean (like Northstar) but also isn’t a piece of shit (birdshot)*

*yes, I know birdshots “gimmick” is that it’s a shit map. That doesn’t change the fact that it is still a shit map.

Meta is honestly my least favorite map. It's a bloated half-corpse jam packed with every single feature and utterly devoid of identity. Its maints are lacking with few remaining effective places to hide for terrified crew or ne'er-do-wells as the entirety of the station is well-traveled by virtue of being so chock full of features that have been slotted into the map with little regard for layout or gameplay need. Due to the dense structure of the station, there's nowhere to expand for projects for good or evil unless you're willing to don a spacesuit and spend a significant amount of time, nor can you easily tunnel in or sneak into restricted areas without easily being discovered. Further, due to the dense design, explosives and large-scale sabotage is far more devastating and difficult to recover from. If you bomb one department, you're likely going to get another caught in the blast, or at the very least cause enough devastation that nobody is willing to repair the damage.

Meta has been my favorite map due to the decent collection of rooms to build in maintenance along with being configured in such a way that engineers cant easily grief other departments
but the room i would always build in got repeated target nerfs and now atmos techs are allowed to irradiate it with their turbine (along with janies closet)

but meta is the lesser evil still, that delta station rework literally put the sm up against science so now engineers have a ticket to bomb sci and get away with it since you never get banned for not taking care of the sm

icebox eva storage makes you get through a fucking extra airlock to get to the materials!!?!?! while on other maps you only need to go through shutters

tramstation also has the same weird issue but also the fucking hand tele is in eva storage?

birdshit doesnt even have materials in eva storage

northstar would be fine if it wasnt for the fact that nothing is balanced around z levels, I cant play with launch pads on this map nearly as much but I can certainly stand at the top and bomb literally every department from one spot. Forcefields are also out of the question.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 5:45 am When Meta was released, it IMMEDIATELY picked up a sizable following despite Box Inertia. I think some of what makes it work is...

i'm not sure if you are confused, but meta did not pick up a sizeable following, it was hated by the main stream and banished to badger, it took ages and a second server before meta was accepted as a running map.

Yeah but I was part of that following and a superior form of human being for it

warbluke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:21 am I want a gas giant station like cloud city. Make it a plasma gas giant too so the whole map can light on fire if you dump oxy cans outside.

me and a friend CoffeeDragon were actually working on a map like this where it took places above a gas giant. there were main platforms that housed departments (sometimes multiple) and were connected by tramlines. you could skip the tram if you went outside and walked across the catwalks. the atmos would actually be flammable so if a department had a breach it could catch fire really easily.

might pick it back up at some point, who knows. we actually got a fair bit of it done.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:42 pm

warbluke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:21 am I want a gas giant station like cloud city. Make it a plasma gas giant too so the whole map can light on fire if you dump oxy cans outside.

me and a friend CoffeeDragon were actually working on a map like this where it took places above a gas giant. there were main platforms that housed departments (sometimes multiple) and were connected by tramlines. you could skip the tram if you went outside and walked across the catwalks. the atmos would actually be flammable so if a department had a breach it could catch fire really easily.

might pick it back up at some point, who knows. we actually got a fair bit of it done.

I'd love more non-space maps. Part of the reason I like icebox is because it's really unique in its setting. (Granted I'd love it more if it wasn't a z-level map but oh well)

Meanwhile, on the rest of the maps you look out the window and see utter blackness.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:25 pm
I'd love more non-space maps. Part of the reason I like icebox is because it's really unique in its setting. (Granted I'd love it more if it wasn't a z-level map but oh well)

Meanwhile, on the rest of the maps you look out the window and see utter blackness.

Personally I think that with lavaland/icemoon in the background space is too bright on the current maps. Give us real void darkness!

warbluke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:26 pm

Personally I think that with lavaland/icemoon in the background space is too bright on the current maps. Give us real void darkness!

Space should get darker based on things like void heretic ascension or narsie cult getting eyes/halos.

honestly having more than one map is kind of overrated. having x maps makes the game x times harder to learn. some clever traps or shortcuts or what have you that only work on one map may not get to really shine because you might not even see that map after playing for a whole day. meta is popular because of inertia sure, but also because its just a map that people know and when you KNOW a map really well it's more fun to play on.

kind of a broad idea but if we went with the fortnite model of "stay on one map for a month or two straight at a time" we would get the benefits of having a map that can be easily learned and known but still get some level of variety for people that play a lot. people would bitch when their favorite map falls off but they'll have plenty of time to learn the new one

speaking from the angle of a boomer who knows basically only meta because the maps have changed so drastically since ive last played btw

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:25 pm I'd love more non-space maps. Part of the reason I like icebox is because it's really unique in its setting. (Granted I'd love it more if it wasn't a z-level map but oh well)

Meanwhile, on the rest of the maps you look out the window and see utter blackness.

Brother, do I have news for you!

Googles_Hands wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:45 pm

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:25 pm I'd love more non-space maps. Part of the reason I like icebox is because it's really unique in its setting. (Granted I'd love it more if it wasn't a z-level map but oh well)

Meanwhile, on the rest of the maps you look out the window and see utter blackness.

Brother, do I have news for you!

This response sucks. I can't tell if you're joking or not.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 6:08 am This response sucks. I can't tell if you're joking or not.

I think it's a rather obvious joke, considering the post I'm replying to is joking about "utter blackness" via the robotchicken video and me making a joke about disabled parallax space just being black tiles.

But sure, get offended or whatever.

oranges wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:07 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 5:45 am When Meta was released, it IMMEDIATELY picked up a sizable following despite Box Inertia. I think some of what makes it work is...

i'm not sure if you are confused, but meta did not pick up a sizeable following, it was hated by the main stream and banished to badger, it took ages and a second server before meta was accepted as a running map.

Didn't meta only really become mainstream loved once we got map rotations instead of the old map loading system?

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:47 pm

oranges wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:07 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 5:45 am When Meta was released, it IMMEDIATELY picked up a sizable following despite Box Inertia. I think some of what makes it work is...

i'm not sure if you are confused, but meta did not pick up a sizeable following, it was hated by the main stream and banished to badger, it took ages and a second server before meta was accepted as a running map.

Didn't meta only really become mainstream loved once we got map rotations instead of the old map loading system?

I remember it having a very strong community behind it on the second server before we had map rotation.

once we had map rotation the idea of multiple maps was more accepted.

The Wrench wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:33 am Oh, so what about meta-station makes it the most popular map besides for social inertia. Is there anything from Meta that in particular makes it feel better to play?

Many things. First of all, every department is solid. There's no one or two departments that have a massive amount of space, and another few that got skimped on -- each one is of average size, with all their standard things.

Second, maintenance is cohesive. They work outwards from the halls, and form an "outside" to every department or area, which is how you'd expect maintenance tunnels to work. It also makes it very easy to get around places without going through public hallways, and offers alternate places to walk around.
In many other stations maints are inconsistent and tedious to navigate, with multiple dead-ends or access restricted passages through departments. Not on Meta.

Third, the station loops. You can walk around it, and this allows the highest degree of inter-departmental crossover, and as a result: INTERACTIONS. You will run by the bar on your way to brig if you're coming from engineering. You'll see what's up in and around medbay if you're going to cargo from sci. You'll be walking by the HoPline and seeing people in line. The station maximizes interactions and inter-departmental crossover, and that's HUGE.

Delta has this same sort of general structure, as does Box, Icebox, Kilo, and others. If you look you can find that this structure is common to all of the most popular maps, because it's how the game evolved to be structured.

Metastation has less 'enforced hallway' than other maps, that is to say that the hallway intersections are flanked by public areas and the stretches of hallway without largely accessible areas are somewhat rare. It was probably the only medpop map that was consistent about this for a few years until delta had its overhaul. Meta also has probably the best dorms integration of our current maps. I haven't thought much about dorms but perhaps the placement of dorms next to security is a good match since it gives sec an insecure flank which just so happens to be on the opposite side of the detention area.
I've always felt that meta's weakest department is science, which for one reason or another feels much easier to infiltrate than other maps. Looking at the layout gives the impression of a fortress but its nothing like that during gameplay. I know science has had all reason to be secured tossed out now that they cant print PA guns and tesla revolvers using a few sheets of mats, but It is a bit odd for the cutting edge research facility to have an unguarded science department. I even remember feeling the old layout was less secure than box's old layout(the new layout is even less secure than Meta's).
I like Meta's chapel. Idk what these mapper types are thinking designing concert halls which are larger than a screen. You cant fill the chapel on ice box or delta, it always seems empty. Same with the libraries on delta and northstar, those are too decorated, if a small bomb goes off the place looks like complete ass if you fix it which is infuriating cause the library is the one place engineers will be able to fix without a shuttle call. ok bye

We should force either a cycle or prevent a map from rolling again for 2 rounds or so. Get some more variety.

I kinda want to see Ceres as a concept revived with either a central tram or two trams for high pop. But I'm pretty sure people will say we have two many maps already

meta is pretty groovy but to say it has no gimmicks speaks to how analogous it has become to "default." the default is predictable and familiar. and space gamers like familiarity.

i like meta and dont crave variety

the layout of "basically a + sign with 2 or 3 departments on each corridor and one big one in the center" is really easy to follow and very intuitive to navigate, newer maps lack this and im not just saying that because im unfamiliar with them. sometimes its okay though, i think tram works too with a similar concept of "big thing in the middle with departments branching out of it in a consistent pattern" what with how the tram centers you and departments can be found by just looking at different tram stops. tl;dr make your maps easier to navigate and people will like them more

What makes meta special??

It’s that crappy paper rainbow hat in Law Maintenance.

The Wrench wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:33 am Oh, so what about meta-station makes it the most popular map besides for social inertia. Is there anything from Mehta that in particular makes it feel better to play?

social inertia

Oranges, are you part of that group that thinks that if if they force people to play birdshot more they will eventually like it?

How did meta become more powerful than Boxstation given the incredible social inertia of box being the only map 90% of the tgstation playerbase played before rotation came into being?

The Wrench wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:33 am Oh, so what about meta-station makes it the most popular map besides for social inertia. Is there anything from Mehta that in particular makes it feel better to play?

It's been around the longest, it's relatively simple, and there isn't anything special about it. It's a perfectly serviceable map that doesn't do anything outrageous.

i went into this before (while incredibly stoned) but imo we're still very early in terms of design and conceptualization for maps in this game. meta works because it's designed to wholly support the game of ss13 - it's an environment that caters specifically to what is needed by the functions and interactions of the game to work to its own strengths.

instead of being designed in such a way to mimic a real location it's instead designed around gameplay needs. department layouts are economic, logical and streamlined for navigating and using, and the foot traffic throughout arterial halls of the station carry people to social hotspots in ways that will cause them to cross paths constantly, while there are also lots of quieter areas out of the way that people traverse much less.

opposing this we have maps which seek to put you into a real location rather than something designed to work with a game. northstar is my favourite example of this: a lot of considerations go toward creating the feeling of being on a spaceship, where the design, layout and position of departments and the routes to reach them must service the concept of the map more than support specific aspects of ss13.

in the end to me it's down to accessibility and ease of use. meta provides easy access to vanilla ss13 as intended, so it easily has the widest appeal.

also this thread is old as shit.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 3:42 pm How did meta become more powerful than Boxstation given the incredible social inertia of box being the only map 90% of the tgstation playerbase played before rotation came into being?

shhhhh you aren't allowed to talk stuff like that, or how wawa and flanderstation have been received well despite being new maps. It goes against the birdshot initiative defense of "THEY JUST HATE IT BECAUSE IT'S NEW!" (birdshot is now over a year old)

i mean its not like meta became popular with the box crowd overnight, it took a while

meta gained tolerance because map rotation was added to the game, before that it was only on basil which killed that server 90% of the time. then box got weird between becoming icebox and some other updates that didn't fit it very well like how science got shuffled like 100 times, and now meta remains as the most normal map if you think about it