/tg/Station 13

Remember when summon guns used to make some crew members antags? ThatSlyFox does. Add that shit back in.

It's been changed to give an extra spell slot.

Honestly I think even one or two antags is enough though you're right. The crew needs someone to shoot other than the wizard or they get antsy holding all that gear.

The free point system (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6387) was added as a direct response to threats and actual server side code reversions on SoS's part when he got salty that people were taking summon spells too much (and they were). That said I still see some wizards who take the summon spells never even use the spare points, so obviously some people will always cast those spells just FOR LAUGHS.

If the current administration doesn't mind the concept of survivors I could change the mechanic back pretty painlessly at whatever survivor creation chance you want, but it'd probably have to wait until after the freeze no matter what.

Incoming wrote:The free point system was added as a direct response to threats and actual server side code reversions on SoS's part when he got salty that people were taking summon spells too much (and they were). That said I still see some wizards who take the summon spells never even use the spare points, so obviously some people will always cast those spells just FOR LAUGHS.

If the current administration doesn't mind the concept of survivors I could change the mechanic back pretty painlessly at whatever survivor creation chance you want, but it'd probably have to wait until after the freeze no matter what.

As the creator of summon guns I declare that it not giving antag status is a bug that needs to be fixed immediately.

Stickymayhem wrote:It's been changed to give an extra spell slot.

Honestly I think even one or two antags is enough though you're right. The crew needs someone to shoot other than the wizard or they get antsy holding all that gear.

Pretty much. Just a bunch of people standing around with wands for half an hour until the shuttle is called, wizard often doesn't even show up for fear of being shot.

Because it was fucking dumb that you're told to "Not die" so your first instinct is to blast your coworker's face off, then anybody else in the hallway next to you.

Could give them the highlander style antag message instead.

That'd at least make sense. "You feel a bloodthirsty rage" or some shit.

Not "Boy i'd better not get killed, lets make my status of not wanting to die known by being excessively hostile to the point everybody wants to gun me down"

Saegrimr wrote:Because it was fucking dumb that you're told to "Not die" so your first instinct is to blast your coworker's face off, then anybody else in the hallway next to you.

Why does every "survivors shouldn't murder" person ignore the text above your objective, that encourages you to murder your co-worker and steal the yellow gloves?

>Why didn't you just give them highlander objectives

So survivors would have a choice in how they react to their newfound license to grief (instead of "orders" to shoot everyone), and because at the time I added the spell it was generally understood (and expected) that antags would go nuts no matter their objective.

Looks like times are changing, gramps.

Saegrimr wrote:Looks like times are changing, gramps.

The text that said "murder your co-worker" never changed, I don't know how much more blatant you need that.

Kor wrote:

Incoming wrote:The free point system was added as a direct response to threats and actual server side code reversions on SoS's part when he got salty that people were taking summon spells too much (and they were). That said I still see some wizards who take the summon spells never even use the spare points, so obviously some people will always cast those spells just FOR LAUGHS.

If the current administration doesn't mind the concept of survivors I could change the mechanic back pretty painlessly at whatever survivor creation chance you want, but it'd probably have to wait until after the freeze no matter what.

As the creator of summon guns I declare that it not giving antag status is a bug that needs to be fixed immediately.

It was literally demanded to be removed by sos. He didn't like how frequent people were taking it or how it turned the round into a random deathmatch mode that admins can't do anything about. Considering he literally deactivated wizard mode for as long as summon x had survivors, the current state was the only way to keep the spell and wizards on the server.

Of course none of that applies now, I just think it's important to get the context.

Well, since we aren't bound by SoS's whims anymore, can we get it back? Because that shit was always the most fun. I remember doing summon guns, disable technology, MM, and fireball and having a ton of fun as a blaster wizard, but it all went to hell when someone had a gyrojet pistol that wasn't disabled like everything else was, so my face got exploded. But it sure was amusing.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure SoS made this a target in a "I ded pls nerf" situation. It never needed to be gone. The entire balance of the spell depends on it being there.

Well, in the defense of SoS, summon spells are taken waayyy to often. Back in the day, I liked it better when it was super OP wizard vs station. Nowadays, and almost every single wizard I've ever seen since as been nothing but summon shit for days.

NikNakFlak wrote:Well, in the defense of SoS, summon spells are taken waayyy to often. Back in the day, I liked it better when it was super OP wizard vs station. Nowadays, and almost every single wizard I've ever seen since as been nothing but summon shit for days.

Because summoning shit is fun for most of the crew.
Whereas a single wizard going around and instant gibbing people really isn't fun for the people who get caught out and left as brains in maint etc.

But then you're turning every round that gets summond guns/magic into to what isn't all that different from "Highlander mode", if your saying EVERYONE gets antag with the objective "Survive" (If im reading the post correctly).

It's only good if it's not being spammed basically every wizard round. With summon events, magic, and guns all there it goes over the top from what could have been fun to just retarded.

If they were limited and controlled in some manner, it would be more acceptable.

Ikarrus wrote:It's only good if it's not being spammed basically every wizard round. With summon events, magic, and guns all there it goes over the top from what could have been fun to just retarded.

If they were limited and controlled in some manner, it would be more acceptable.

But Traitors aren't limited by what equipment they buy, despite the fact they all usually go for some form of emag/revolver/e-sword/ebow.
Why confine wizards to standards we don't hold other antags to?

Why confine wizards to standards we don't hold other antags to?

But we do? Do I have to remind you about how unfun double agents was? How it was just deathmatch from the get-go and was just everyone was bombing everyone? Do you remember that's why we removed bombs from their uplinks and reduced the number of DAs every round?

I think you guys forget that we had similar issues with every wizard round summon spamming. Not to say that removing it entirely was the right thing to do either, but there is a middle ground.

I am simply calling for moderation. Don't swing back to the other extreme and continue ruining this.

It was removed, as I recall, because of a direct mandate from SoS. However, before we jump to conclusions and finger-pointing and circlejerking "fug de old hozt :DD" let's bear in mind that this was after 2 back to back wizard rounds (both of which I played in) wherein the Head of Security got Survivor and abused his status to murderbone more people than I have ever seen. Literally more than half of the crew. It was awful.

I think I was only so bothered at the time because the objective is like "Stay alive at any cost." If it was changed to be something like "YOU FEEL AN INTENSE BLOODLUST AND RAGE AT YOUR COWORKERS" I would be absolutely alright with people becoming murder machines, because that doesn't feel like pushing the boundries of objectives and/or antagonist status.

This would make summon magic/guns a pretty big meta choice as well. Not that it would be bad, but I think it got pretty tiresome back then. "Oh guns just appeared and my coworker killed me and hid the body" was/is not fun.

Ikarrus wrote:nd you about how unfun double agents was? How it was just deathmatch from the get-go and was just everyone was bombing everyone? Do you remember that's why we removed bombs from their uplinks and reduced the number of DAs every round?

I think the difference between wizard and traitor/da is that even "normal" wizard is a deathmatch/manhunt. Traitor has room for different stories to play out and jobs to do their thing, wizard is just 15 minutes of running after the teleporting guy gibbing people.

Scones wrote: If it was changed to be something like "YOU FEEL AN INTENSE BLOODLUST AND RAGE AT YOUR COWORKERS"

It said that as well though. "Now would be the perfect time to steal those insulated gloves you've been eyeing or get revenge on your coworkers" or something along those lines

Scones wrote:" If it was changed to be something like "YOU FEEL AN INTENSE BLOODLUST AND RAGE AT YOUR COWORKERS"

Fluff wise we could just say you're fed up with your job and you just want to go postal.

Reimoo wrote:

Scones wrote:" If it was changed to be something like "YOU FEEL AN INTENSE BLOODLUST AND RAGE AT YOUR COWORKERS"

Fluff wise we could just say you're fed up with your job and you just want to go postal.

Your sick of your two-faced coworkers, you hate your job, your boss is an ass. Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.

callanrockslol wrote:

Reimoo wrote:

Scones wrote:" If it was changed to be something like "YOU FEEL AN INTENSE BLOODLUST AND RAGE AT YOUR COWORKERS"

Fluff wise we could just say you're fed up with your job and you just want to go postal.

Your sick of your two-faced coworkers, you hate your job, your boss is an ass. Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.

This works, and nice reference.

I think its important that the survivor message doesn't directly encourage murderboning.

Bring it back, it was removed in the first place due to a tantrum from SoS. That isn't a valid reason to remove something in the first place.

> People doing something too much because it's fun and involves the entire station.
> Stop doing fun things!
> Now wizard rounds are literal borefests / extended V2 most of the time.

It should just say 'TURN DOWN FOR WHAT?!!!!?!!?!one!?!?!?!?!?!!!11?'

And let the people choose.

Ikarrus wrote:It's only good if it's not being spammed basically every wizard round. With summon events, magic, and guns all there it goes over the top from what could have been fun to just retarded.

If they were limited and controlled in some manner, it would be more acceptable.

The problem is that the playerbase has an intense aversion to anything that causes death, and it's gotten to the point where a wizard who actually tries to be destructive is frowned upon. That's why there are so many summons. It is seen as "giving back" to the crew.

I don't believe I saw this anywhere in the thread, but what if "Rage" became a seperate spell entirely?
"Inflicts a murderous wrath upon certain crew members"
So that way a small handful could be selected (randomly) to become "survivors" and if a Wizard wants to summon weapons it'd take up two slots to give it the full effect.