Locked Nukeop Hardsuits

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:09 am #87551

Bottom post of the previous page:

Cheridan wrote:yelling for a revert ignores the original problems.

There were no "original problems" pertaining to explosive implants. Firing pins, for the most part, was a great PR; it solved the issue of ops being able to get disarmed and shot with their own gun at any moment, and added another level of dynamics to guns from R&D.

However, for some asinine reason (perhaps you felt you needed to counterbalance the buff to ops from giving them unlootable guns?), it also removed explosive implants which have essentially no issue (except for "muh rp," which has already been taken as a non-issue since "gameplay > rp" in terms of importance). IIRC, even in the original PR, people were saying not to remove explosive implants. This change didn't solve any "original problem" (as you put it). Instead, it created several new problems, such as ops being loot pinatas (it didn't even solve the pseudo-issue of "muh rp" since people kill ops relentlessly anyways).

Then, to solve these new problems, unremovable nuke op hardsuits were added, which added even more problems and still failed to solve the ones caused by removing explosive implants. Now ops can't even heal each other! And what's the solution being proposed? Not a revert, no! We're going to allow op hardsuits to be healed through, which will just result in the crew attacking ops with patches of chlorine trisulfurate or whatever the fuck the fire chemical is called. This is another problem that will be created if we keep denying reverting the change to op's explosive implants.

"But they still have implants!" Yes, for several TC, which is a limited and valuable resource that the ops will have better spent elsewhere. "But it's worth it, it's the same explosion radius as a minibomb!" If it's really, truly worth the exchange for the limited, valuable, round-driving force of Telecrystals, why is it that nobody buys them? Also, it doesn't have the same explosion radius, where'd you get that idea?

Cheridan wrote:Hm. I based them off the explosions that blob-welderbombs do which always seemed pretty destructive. The size can be made bigger easily.

So you're considering not a revert, but yet another change which will create more issues down the line. ("Other op used an explosive implant and it killed the rest of the ops instantly when he died near them! Explosive implants aren't worth the TC for the damage they do!")

Your points for the original change are moot, and your solutions for the new issues the original change caused is to create more changes that will just cause more issues down the line.
Seriously consider just reverting the removal of explosive implants.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Tue May 12, 2015 7:30 am #87572

lumipharon wrote:The same reason you can't eat through a mask. Unless you're a snowflake clown/mime. Or unless you're eating a hivelord core.

Doesn't really have anything to do with nukeops. Let's get back on topic, please.

Oldman Robustin wrote:It's clear that most community members don't appreciate what you've done, nobody is ever going to BUY explosive implants for fucking roleplay purposes when they are already struggling to win more than 25% of rounds.

Sounds like nuke ops need more telecrystals then.

lumipharon wrote:And with regards to having explosive implants as a purchasable item, you could apply the same logic to nvg's, agent cards and stechkins, shotguns, pinpointers - anything that they get for free. Start the ops naked, just lots of tc's. It gives them more freedom, right?

As long as it was accompanied with an appropriate increase in available telecystals, nvg's and possibly the agent cards would be prime candidate for needing to be purchased. I think what people are angry about with current nuke flops is that they were strictly speaking nerfed because the amount of available telecrystals remained the same but gained a new expense. Which would be fair if they were powerful, but their winrate was fairly low last I checked.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue May 12, 2015 8:31 am #87582

Giving them more telecrystals solves nothing.

People still wont buy explosive implants because that's still investing in losing.
Instead, people will buy more syndie borgs, mechs and e-shields.

Explosive implans were base level kit with an extremely clear purpose and function. They filled this role perfectly - it's literally click a button, you can't get more simple then that.
Cheridan changed this, saying that 'they weren't even effective anyway', removin them from the starting equipment and replacing it first with nothing, then with superglue lined hardsuits, which still do not achieve the same purpose, and with less functionality.

Like this is honestly really clear cut.

Item A performed function X.
Item A was replaced by item B.
Item by does not perform function X.

Why are we still using B?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 12, 2015 8:45 am #87583

Increasing Nuke Ops starting TC's is a bad idea, if you give them too much then, as I described the last time someone brought it up, the ops can simply buy C20rs and Energy Shields for every single Op with room to spare, and I can tell you that five Nuke Operatives with a robust SMG, a Energy Shield and equipment to boot is very damn powerful (maybe too powerful).

The absolute fact of the matter is that the original change made by Cheridan was a solution to a non-exsistant problem and despite continual and repeated calls to revert the change, he steadfast refuses to do so.

I would be more than happy to revert the change myself (and even knock back the massive buff explosive implants got to their explosive radius), but I know odds are that PR will get closed.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue May 12, 2015 10:00 pm #87724

Steelpoint wrote: I would be more than happy to revert the change myself (and even knock back the massive buff explosive implants got to their explosive radius), but I know odds are that PR will get closed.

Cheridan would he refuses to yield that his original idea was shit and continually tries to justify it. He and Paprika are one and the same

callanrockslol · Wed May 13, 2015 6:42 am

Bombadil wrote:
Steelpoint wrote: I would be more than happy to revert the change myself (and even knock back the massive buff explosive implants got to their explosive radius), but I know odds are that PR will get closed.
Cheridan would he refuses to yield that his original idea was shit and continually tries to justify it. He and Paprika are one and the same

Paprika confirmed for Cheridan alt.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed May 13, 2015 7:26 am #87802

Bombadil wrote:
Steelpoint wrote: I would be more than happy to revert the change myself (and even knock back the massive buff explosive implants got to their explosive radius), but I know odds are that PR will get closed.
Cheridan would he refuses to yield that his original idea was shit and continually tries to justify it. He and Paprika are one and the same

Crackpot theories for 1000, Alex. Are you sure they aren't just clones or anti-fun androids?

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed May 13, 2015 7:33 am

I'll make a break for freedom once the codefreeze is open and give nukers back their implants, lower the size, and let them buy for like 8TC the tunguska implant which does exactly what it sounds like it does.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed May 13, 2015 7:49 am #87806

Tunguska Implant should be near a max cap bomb but there's a 5 second warning.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed May 13, 2015 7:51 am #87808

Tunguska implant should summon a 'completely random' fuck-huge meteor to the implantee's location, obviously.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed May 13, 2015 8:12 am #87815

Liquid dark matter + Blackpowder would make for a hilarious suicide implant set.
LDM sucks in anyone nearby, and then the blackpowder (since it's reaction is delayed) will blow them all up.

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Wed May 13, 2015 8:36 am #87818

You could place some free explosive implants on the shuttle. Then the ops can choose if they want to explode or if they want to try and defib their fallen teammates.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:24 am #87820

Precisely what I suggested, and probably going to be ignored all the same.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed May 13, 2015 10:11 am #87831

That doesn't address other issues the change created - like the OP's original complaint, that you can't heal fellow ops through their suits other then the useless combat hypo.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed May 13, 2015 12:18 pm #87845

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'll make a break for freedom once the codefreeze is open and give nukers back their implants, lower the size, and let them buy for like 8TC the tunguska implant which does exactly what it sounds like it does.

Yeah I bet Cheridan won't close that PR.

You think him vehemently defending himself here won't translate to defending his actions on github? It'll be closed before 24 hours. DO NOT REVERT MY HARD WORK AND GLORIOUS IDEALS I AM GREAT LEADER

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed May 13, 2015 1:01 pm #87850

Bombadil this is not your code.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:59 pm #87945

Tokiko2 wrote:You could place some free explosive implants on the shuttle. Then the ops can choose if they want to explode or if they want to try and defib their fallen teammates.

That would be retarded. If they're going to get implants, they should spawn with them. Having them available isn't a "choice" because strictly speaking it's better to use them than not use them.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 13, 2015 10:06 pm #87947

Doesn't matter either way, crew will still mow down ops.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed May 13, 2015 10:52 pm #87966

I have to say this is also extremely annoying when dealing with regular traitors who ordered the suit by uplink, you kill them but can't check their identity in any way.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Thu May 14, 2015 12:55 am #87991

How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Thu May 14, 2015 1:56 am #88009

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

And what makes your opinion worth more than everyone else's?

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:02 am #88010

You can literally remove explosive implants with the full surgery kit you are provided with on the ship, if you exploding on death is such an issue.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:15 am #88016

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Except you removed something that was already a part of the game against the will of the community, which implies you believe your opinion trumps that of the majority of the server. Given that the server is community funded, I'm inclined to believe that the community should have the final say.

Also, you can use the logic you emplaced there for anything. It's worthless as an argument.

> How is it I'm the bad guy for 'forcing' slowspace upon people, but it's ok for people to force fastspace upon me
> How is it I'm the bad guy for 'forcing' mute borgs upon people, but it's ok for people to force talking borgs upon me
> How is it I'm the bad guy for 'forcing' goonchem upon people, but it's ok for people to force trekchem upon me
And so on. Interesting of note, the inverted 'argument' is just as effective.
> How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" explosive implants upon people, but it's ok for people to force locked hardsuits and no implants upon me?

Just listen to yourself, christ. You're literally whining that 'I want things my waaaaaaaaaay!' like a petulant child, by changing what has been for years for something that no one wants but yourself, and complaining that everyone is forcing the old ways upon you.

I can't tell if you're being worse than Pap or not.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:17 am #88017

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Easy. Give them all explosive implanters in their bag that way YOU can choose not to. Christ its that simple.

But if you die in nukeops I really doubt your ass is going to be defibbed since... hardsuits are locked and to defib you need to remove exosuits OH WAIT THEY ARE LOCKED. But hey if you use sulphuric acid on the helmet it melts off!

Also the majority think we should get implants back.

Amelius wrote: I can't tell if you're being worse than Pap or not.

Pap and Cheridan were always close. They are practically one and the same... Remember when Paprika tried to remove the Greytide Sign for the Bar?

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:19 am #88018

Amelius wrote: Except you removed something that was already a part of the game against the will of the community, which implies you believe your opinion trumps that of the majority of the server. Given that the server is community funded, I'm inclined to believe that the community should have the final say.

Incoming "but the codebase is a separate entity from the server" argument, despite sharing both the same name and forums, using the server as a testing bed for their changes, and having a say in the headmin elections.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:20 am #88019

Amelius wrote:
Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!
Except you removed something that was already a part of the game against the will of the community, which implies you believe your opinion trumps that of the majority of the server. Given that the server is community funded, I'm inclined to believe that the community should have the final say.

NOTE: Cheridan will remind us of HG's speech about CODERBUS AND /tg/station are absolutely seperate and that they are not coding for /tg/ station which is a crock of shit.

or

I'm the developer I know better than you. I don't play as much as you but explosive implants were totally unbalanced HURRRR

Edit: Konork you mah bro

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:35 am #88022

Can we not do the anti coderbus shitfest?

Literally nothing useful comes from it, no matter how right you might think you are.

Oldman Robustin · Thu May 14, 2015 2:38 am

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Oh man I don't think I could do a parody of shitty coderbus logic better than that.

Explosive implants apply, if you don't want them, only when you die. If you're dead as nukeop you're fucking gone for good - implant or not. Why is your obsession with having an intact corpse more important than the dozens of people in OOC and this thread who have expressed opposition to locked hardsuits and the removal of explosive implants.

Aside from all the fucking balance issues we've raised, it was bloody ICONIC - and if you don't understand what that means then you shouldn't be deciding what's part of the /tg/station code or not.

@Lumi:

Only thing that gets a reaction from coderbus is the giant hatetrain. Post a polite, orderly thread and expect it to get ignored or simply get a polite "I disagree" from the responsible coder and watch as the thread fades into irrelevance. Give players a way to actually influence or have control on what code gets forced down their throat and you might see more dignified communications. Until then we basically have to call out individual coders here until they're forced to come here and defend themselves and hopefully in the process of embarassing themselves with shitty justifications for their changes they will step back and revert what they've done. It's literally the ONLY way I see things reverted on /tg/station.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:41 am #88032

i have some planned explosive implant changes that should be a win/win for everyone

callanrockslol · Thu May 14, 2015 8:43 am

Amelius wrote:Words

Server=/=Code absolute division blah blah literally bullshit nobody believes

Given that the server is community funded, I'm inclined to believe that the community should have the final say.

If a single person uses crowdfunding as an excuse ever they should probably fuck themselves. Especially if they don't pay a cent. Donating to the patreon gives nobody ever any privilege on the server. yet

iamgoofball wrote:i have some planned explosive implant changes that should be a win/win for everyone

Don't forget the autocloner boards for 20tc.

Erisian · Post by **Erisian** » Thu May 14, 2015 5:37 pm #88142

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Is that a joke? You are one person. The server and people who comprise it is far more than one person. If most of the people do not like this change, then yes, it is forcing it upon them. You are not special and your opinion is worth no more than theirs. Yet there are more complaining about this change than people who support this change. So, their opinion is worth more than yours simply for the fact that you are one person with one opinion and they are many people with one opinion. Why should your will and fun be heeded over that of everyone else? You don't play on the server alone.

The mindset you just promoted, assuming it isn't a joke, is that of a toddler before they really understand other people and their feelings. Yes, sometimes you may like a change and find it fun. I get that. But you can't always get what you want. And you might say "well, that goes for the people against my idea too!", and you'd be correct. However, players keep the server alive. They're the main lifeblood of the community. What they find fun is far more important than an idea you came up with and feel the need to force upon them. It is not all about you when you share this server with many other people. And those many find your change to be unfun and unconductive towards either realism or fun gameplay.

Knowing all of that, why would you then continue to force it on people? Do you honestly believe that what YOU want trumps what a large portion of the community wants? I thought you guys coded because you cared about the community and wanted to make it more fun for everyone involved; so to see you all but say you don't give a shit about people who dislike the idea is a little odd.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Fri May 15, 2015 4:03 am #88274

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri May 15, 2015 8:22 am #88302

You're misunderstanding.

Old:
Everyone has to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can't opt out.

Current:
Everyone has the option to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can have them, people who don't want them can opt out.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 15, 2015 8:27 am #88303

Old
Explosive implants were weak and standard issue, the explosion would only gib the operative and knock down anyone standing adjacent to the operative.

Current
Explosives implants are powerful but not standard issue, the explosion is sufficient to kill or badly maim anyone within several tiles. Implants cost Telecystals to buy.

If the implants were free and given to the Ops at round start in their hands/pockets then it would be fine.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 15, 2015 8:35 am

MisterPerson wrote:You're misunderstanding.

Old:
Everyone has to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can't opt out.

People who didn't want explosive implants could frankly fuck right off. Letting the crew have your loot when you went down was tantamount to griefing your team.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:15 am #88316

People who don't want them can surgically remove the fucking things.

Erisian · Post by **Erisian** » Fri May 15, 2015 3:20 pm #88336

MisterPerson wrote:You're misunderstanding.

Old:
Everyone has to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can't opt out.

Current:
Everyone has the option to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can have them, people who don't want them can opt out.

And nobody is wasting TC on buying them. When you're an op, it's not like real life where if you busted in with guns blazing people are going to run and flee. On SS13 everyone and their mother rushes down to where they heard you were in the hopes of killing you and looting you. So, you NEED those tools in order to survive and buying an implant is just a waste of crystals. Not to mention Cheridan's logic behind this change is fucked in the first place. Why would you need an "opt out" of explosive implants when you're working for an entity that cares even less about life than Nanotrasen and you're supposed to be hardened operatives that die by blowing up to deny NT and their crew the chance to examine/use their gear and tech?

Maybe Cheridan wants to be a special snowflake operative who "RPs" with the crew, but I'd rather him have an explosive implant for when he's inevitably killed for being a dumbass and trying to roleplay his way out of the HoS shooting him in the face with a laser. How out of touch are coders with this game anyway?

Remie Richards · Fri May 15, 2015 3:23 pm

You know you only hurt your own argument when you claim we're out of touch, so stop.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:00 pm #88357

Remie Richards wrote:You know you only hurt your own argument when you claim we're out of touch, so stop.

Does it really? When community speaks about bad changes and there's a refusal to change based on arrogance or "Just do yourself." Does that not imply the coders are out of touch?
Not to mention this right here proves a point.

MisterPerson wrote:You're misunderstanding.
Old:
Everyone has to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can't opt out.

Current:
Everyone has the option to have explosive implants. People who don't want them can have them, people who don't want them can opt out.

The old way it was the fact nobody cared when they were an Op because it was never a concern that your gear would get lifted unless you dropped a bag or someone found your bag or you had dropped it by accident
The current system seems to force ops to pay for something that was an active denial system to the crew. I'm sure everyone has played an Ops round where the crew got a hold of their CR20 at one point and ended up paying the price for it. So why take the only thing that prevented them from getting your loot?

It spreads about an air of "Why do the coders make these changes that nobody ever asked for at all?" and "Why do they refuse to revert these changes nobody ever wanted when made?"

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:30 pm #88361

I think this is honestly pretty fucking dumb in that such an overwhelming majority has condemned the change, in the thread, in OOC, in IRC, pointing out the myriad of issues with it - And yet Cheridan refuses to budge on accepting that maybe, it was in fact a bad change.

Don't get me wrong I don't think there's an evil coder conspiracy but this is just a pretty impressively shit lack of accountability.

ShadowDimentio · Fri May 15, 2015 5:48 pm

All aboard the "The community should decide if changes stay or not, not the coder who made it" train!

Seriously this keeps happening. Some coder makes a change that they thought was good, and will viciously defend their precious perfect baby from all the mean players who want to kill it.

Plus Cheridan, your rationale for keeping this is awful. Coders should have an express interest in improving the server with NEW THINGS, not removing features because "I don't like them!"

So yeah, ban remove this filth

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri May 15, 2015 9:54 pm #88400

Konork wrote:
Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!
And what makes your opinion worth more than everyone else's?

I never said it was. But people seem to have the idea that my opinion is worth LESS. As a player my opinion is dismissed, if people do not agree with me its "those fucking coders are trying to cram things we don't want again!"
The fact that everyone has interpreted this as me saying my opinion is superior is very telling of this bias.

All I have done is defend this change AND WHY WOULDN'T I? I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT IF I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA
and somehow I am literally paprika

Bombadil wrote: Easy. Give them all explosive implanters in their bag that way YOU can choose not to. Christ its that simple.

For the last time, IF THE IMPLANTS ARE FREE, THEY ARE NOT OPTIONAL. You will be expected to use them, your teammates will harass you until you've "remembered" to put them in, possibly force implanting you.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Aside from all the fucking balance issues we've raised, it was bloody ICONIC

This is not an argument for keeping something.
And if it was, guess what! You're still wrong!! Maybe you're enough of a newfag that they're iconic to you, but to me they are a recent hugbox addition.

PS this thread has gone down the shtiter and since i am apparently literally paprika I am going to do the paprika thing and ignore this thread now.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri May 15, 2015 10:26 pm #88407

Cheridan wrote: All I have done is defend this change AND WHY WOULDN'T I? I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT IF I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA
and somehow I am literally paprika

Cheridan wrote:For the last time, IF THE IMPLANTS ARE FREE, THEY ARE NOT OPTIONAL. You will be expected to use them, your teammates will harass you until you've "remembered" to put them in, possibly force implanting you.

Considering the following:
1. While you can defend your code change, many players have offered several counter points to why it shouldn't have been changed in the first place.
2. Just because you're a coder doesn't mean you can automatically assume what's best for the player base.
3. If there are more people who agree with your code change then they would be in this thread. Sadly there is hardly anyone in this on your side which explains the hostilities.
4. Paprika was and is still a massive douche canoe, who didn't take kindly to player criticism at all and usually brush off legit complaints. You're starting to acting like that because you have a tide of players who hate the change you brought and are bringing up real reasons to do away with your baby.
5. Most rational nuke ops who are presented a box of implants will inject them. Why? Because when confronted the other Ops will tell them that it'll deny the crew getting their sweet gear, in which Ops will see as reasonable and inject themselves.

Cheridan wrote:PS this thread has gone down the shtiter and since i am apparently literally paprika I am going to do the paprika thing and ignore this thread now.

Stated in the above reasons. Players don't like your change, and you're not going to man up and say "Well yeah I fucked up in making this." avoiding it won't help you.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri May 15, 2015 10:43 pm #88413

Cheridan wrote:
Konork wrote:
Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!
And what makes your opinion worth more than everyone else's?
I never said it was. But people seem to have the idea that my opinion is worth LESS. As a player my opinion is dismissed, if people do not agree with me its "those fucking coders are trying to cram things we don't want again!"
The fact that everyone has interpreted this as me saying my opinion is superior is very telling of this bias.

All I have done is defend this change AND WHY WOULDN'T I? I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT IF I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA
and somehow I am literally paprika

Bombadil wrote: Easy. Give them all explosive implanters in their bag that way YOU can choose not to. Christ its that simple.
For the last time, IF THE IMPLANTS ARE FREE, THEY ARE NOT OPTIONAL. You will be expected to use them, your teammates will harass you until you've "remembered" to put them in, possibly force implanting you.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Aside from all the fucking balance issues we've raised, it was bloody ICONIC
This is not an argument for keeping something.
And if it was, guess what! You're still wrong!! Maybe you're enough of a newfag that they're iconic to you, but to me they are a recent kickin' rad place to be addition.

PS this thread has gone down the shtiter and since i am apparently literally paprika I am going to do the paprika thing and ignore this thread now.

They were ways to deny gear and were the best at it. If you die in nuke ops. YOUR PRETTY MUCH DEAD FOREVER. SO WHY ARE THE FUCKING EXPLOSIVE IMPLANTS BAD? Before they got buffed after your removal they only did tile damage and knocked people out nearby and gibbed the corpse of the implantee. The locked hardsuits prevent you from healing a team mate from death. Now if we had the old system for explosive implants we can save them before they die and explode. In the system we have now no defib, no healing other than bandages which nuke ops dont have access to and no cryo.

Oh wait your ignoring the thread now. I can't wait for you to throw a bitch fit when people introduce their prs to implement explosive implants back into nuke ops and you throw an UTTER BITCHFIT closing the prs while Miauw attempts to reopen them and you close them repeatedly.

But hey atleast the Community can provide counterpoints to your utter unwillingness to give a reasonable explanation for why implants are bad when the evidence clearly points us to the fact that implants were good and if you got downed with an implant you had a chance to survive unlike now

Edit: Cheridans glorious explanation is MUH RP

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri May 15, 2015 10:58 pm #88416

Bombadil wrote: Why do you not like explosive implants? EXPLAIN IT

try reading the thread
also wow

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:11 pm #88417

Cheridan wrote:
Bombadil wrote: Why do you not like explosive implants? EXPLAIN IT
try reading the thread
also wow

Bomb don't be overly hostile.
Cheridan you have several veteran players for example Steelpoint and OMR who give reasonable evidence that this was never needed and provide conclusive examples of how explosive implants benefited nukes ops. Your examples are most quote. "Roleplay and gameplay freedom." which I've never heard any Op ever complained that their bodies exploded denying the crew their game. While Ops can ID their ops buddies, the fact is that when OldOps died they didn't worry about everything they had being in the dirty ape hands of the station monkies. While I've seen people who've lost bags and guns at times it usually was only a token few who had them.

Fri May 15, 2015 11:21 pm

Cheri put up a PR that changes implants down to 4 TC, disallows you from injecting things through op's hardsuits (when in combat mode), and removes hardsuits being unremovable.

I'm really trying to be respectful here. I think Cheridan is an asset to the codebase. But please, Cheridan, despite all the shit-flinging going on in this thread, there are a lot of legitimate points that outweigh or outright disprove points for making explosive implants not free like they used to be. I know it's not easy to read post after post of criticisms, but I implore you to try and extract the valid points and truly consider them. A majority of people here want this reverted; don't you think they must have a reason for that?

Aside from that, hardsuit locking does need to go, and this PR does do that, but it's not replaced with anything worthwhile (like free implants). It boils down to "spend 20 TC on certain items or you're fucked." This would effectively accomplish the same result as if we had just never removed implants from ops, but instead nerfed them by making them have 20 less TC at roundstart (which nobody would have supported). Ops do not need another nerf.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:24 pm #88424

This thread is turning into a screaming match about explosive implants, which isn't the point. The point is that locked op hardsuits have managed to nerf both the ops (can't heal others, very helpful in combat) and the crew (can't fight back). What was wrong with implants with a TC cost? If not enough people were using them, lower the TC cost -- traitor won't be affected much as it is only useful there for DIE A GLORIOUS DEATH or creative traitoring.

Fri May 15, 2015 11:35 pm

bandit wrote:This thread is turning into a screaming match about explosive implants, which isn't the point. The point is that locked op hardsuits have managed to nerf both the ops (can't heal others, very helpful in combat) and the crew (can't fight back). What was wrong with implants with a TC cost? If not enough people were using them, lower the TC cost -- traitor won't be affected much as it is only useful there for DIE A GLORIOUS DEATH or creative traitoring.

The main issue is that without hardsuit locking, the ops don't have anything to completely deny the crew their gear, unless they spend 20-25 TC. This effectively nerfs ops by giving them less tc at roundstart (unless they want to pass up on buying implants and lose almost guaranteed).

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:41 pm #88427

Because no matter how cheap you make it, the implant is still ony useful when you're defeated. Therefore anything else is a better use of your TC's, since they help you win.

Paying tc's planning to lose vs paying tc's planning to win.

Implants are relevent to the OP because the hardsuit problem only arose because they no longer have implants, thus had to make their hardsuits unremovable (which doesn't actually work).

Also Cheri no one is saying your opinion is worth less then anyone elses.
The difference?

There is a hell of a lot of people that disagree with you, and very few people that agree with you.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat May 16, 2015 8:59 pm #88566

Removing locked hardsuits was a needed change, but this doesn't fix the core problem that you are in denial about.

No one will EVER buy explosive implants because they cost TC. TC is your lifeblood, and the only reason you'd ever buy an implant, is if you're planning on having your team die (similar to how you'd never buy one as a traitor - you're effectively planning your own death). Otherwise, it's rationally ALWAYS better to spend your TC on equipment to help everyone survive.

Your central concern is that nuke op teams would pressure each other into injecting themselves with explosive implants, why is that a fucking concern in the first place? It entails that everyone on the team would believe that it's a good idea and can back it up, so you're effectively aquiescing that you know explosive implants are exclusively a beneficial instrument for the operatives. If they're exclusively a beneficial instrument by your own charge, then how can you justify removing a crucial given, from an antag with a sub-25% winrate, when it was never a concern for anyone but yourself? As others have said, that may as well be a flat 20 TC nerf if you wanted explosive implants, or a straight nerf with no replacement, by your own admission. You claim it's for roleplaying purposes, but I have yet to see anyone, crew and op alike, bother roleplaying in an op round, or, in the latter case, cloning and/or not killing an operative in any circumstance.

In other words, you're delusional, just like Pap. You're even acting like him by disregarding the thread, and acting like a child, entailing that your own opinion outweighs that of the entire community. Your change is shit, and your attitude is shit.