Locked Nukeop Hardsuits

Oldman Robustin · Mon May 11, 2015 12:11 am

1. Go into crit in front of medical supplies

2. Fellow Nukeops can't remove my suit to apply bruisepacks/syringes

3. I'm unhealable because of some completely insane rationale from the coderbus.

Ok I get it, people could loot nukeops. That was the punishment for fluking or rambo'ing, explosive implants existed and robust ops knew how to deny their gear.

Why is this a thing? The costs of this change are orders of magnitude ahead of the benefits.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Mon May 11, 2015 12:25 am #87164

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/8996

Woulda wished the feature request tag to be added on this.

Oldman Robustin · Mon May 11, 2015 12:31 am

Also apparently the hypospray injects Saline-Glucose.

This all reads like a bad joke, but knowing Coderbus it's all completely well-intentioned but completely ignorant of how the game operates.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon May 11, 2015 12:40 am #87172

Please stop assuming coderbus is a single minded entity. I don't like these changes either.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon May 11, 2015 12:58 am #87178

He's just behind the times, so he missed all the threads we've already had about all the changes he's complaining about and then finally gave up when it was clear nothing would come of it.

Here ya go.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 02&p=57446

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 1:24 am #87182

I said this so many times.

There was literally nothing wrong with explosive implants. They had a clear purpose, and they clearly achieved that purpose.

Instead, we're left with ID locked guns and sealed hardsuits, which are still 100% lootable, because you can just acid the helmet off with 5u of acid, then loot them.

It literally only hurts the nuke ops.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 11, 2015 1:34 am #87184

+1 for reverting nuke op hardsuits/explosive implants.

EDIT: Some justification so I'm not just shitposting: The hardsuit thing* removes the !FUN! and encourages nuke ops to just rush in and kill with impunity rather than MAYBE try to RP their way out when things go south. I dunno. That's how it feels to me.

* where "thing" is the hardsuit change + implant removal + firing pin changes.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:47 am #87200

Atlanta-Ned wrote:The hardsuit thing* removes the !FUN! and encourages nuke ops to just rush in and kill with impunity rather than MAYBE try to RP their way out when things go south. I dunno. That's how it feels to me.

Huh? It's the opposite. Before, the crew would cuff/crit an op-- getting whatever weapon they were using, guaranteed. Then loot the rest as fast as possible before they pop, and then laser them down to gibs if they don't. Every time. If you tried to "RP your way out" you'd have literally all of deadchat calling you an idiot for not using *deathgasp to activate your implant and deny the station your gear.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-statio ... 9452/files
Anyway I went and buffed the combat hypo. I don't know what goofball was thinking with salglu but that was pathetic enough for me to count it as a bug.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 11, 2015 2:50 am

My biggest problem with unremovable hardsuits is its now impossible to take prisoners. Fucking nightmare as an asimov borg when you have a highly violent prisoner you can't actually put in a cell. Definitely encourages killing them outright rather than those rare times they got interrogated.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:54 am #87206

Instead of disarming and at least having the opportunity to take a Op prisoner (as rare as that is it is possible) you instead now have little choice but to execute Ops since you can't disarm them.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:03 am #87209

@Kor @Steelpoint It wasn't possible to take them prisoner before, unless they were noobs who didn't know how to use *deathgasp/succumb -- which was one of the reasons why they were so bad. They often failed as an equipment denial method but were 100% successful as a method of denying the team a nuke op.

I mean if it's desired to be able to fully strip them for detention, then I'll go with that. But I got a lot of people in the other ear saying that it's important to have methods of keeping nuke op equipment from the hands of the station.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:29 am #87212

Could make nukeops equipment only usable by nukeops+nukeop pins

We don't have this problem with aliens getting harmbatoned by their own batons and shot with their own guns.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:34 am #87213

Have you ever, EVER seen a nuke op get captured since the change, then rescued by the rest of the ops?

I for one have not.
There is literally no reason to not murder the nukeop as soon as physically possible.
The only reason why you wouldn't is because asimov silicons are preventing you from doing so.

Explosive implants were a 100% reliable method of equipment denial. You literally press one button at any time, and blow yourself up.

The only thing you drop is whatever is in your hands, usually your gun. This was not changed by removing explosive implants, as the whole locked gun thing is an entirely seperate issue.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:49 am #87220

@kevins000 Are you referring to abductors? (You have to be specific with the term "alien" these days.

) Do they have any form of protection on their gear? I imagine it's less of a problem in the first place because there's only 1 agent on the station with the scientist working on the ship, opposed to a full squad.

One idea I was spitballed in OOC once was having a system where the gear was directly linked to the life of an operative. So while the op is alive, it's fine. If he dies, all the equipment self-destructs, even if it's spread across the station. So the crew can make a choice of whether to kill the op and miss out on the gear, or to capture him and take advantage of the equipment at the risk of the operative escaping.
(At the time, it didn't even occur to me that this is exactly how alien equipment in XCOM games works)
I think the concept is workable, though there are some minor issues such as what to do about defibs.

lumipharon wrote:Have you ever, EVER seen a nuke op get captured since the change, then rescued by the rest of the ops?

Yes.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:54 am #87222

I never understood why we didn't just get firing pins AND explosive implants. Cheridan can't complain about the crew getting the op's guns, the ops get their ability to deny the crew of their gear back (that actually works compared to an unstrippable hardsuit), win-win.
And before you say "B-BUT THEY CAN'T RP IF THEY JUST EXPLODE," remember that they can't RP if they're being murdered instantly so the crew can monkey/acid them for loot either (plus i don't recall nukes being an rp oriented mode (but that's less relevant))

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:10 am #87228

I see nuke ops get captured quite a bit. It's pretty boring, they just sit around in Brig for five or so minutes before getting hustled onto the shuttle. Honestly it adds pretty much no more meaningful interaction. Not really something anybody would miss, if I had to be totally honest.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:17 am #87231

PKPenguin321 wrote:I never understood why we didn't just get firing pins AND explosive implants. Cheridan can't complain about the crew getting the op's guns, the ops get their ability to deny the crew of their gear back (that actually works compared to an unstrippable hardsuit), win-win.

Pretty much this. Both would fix these problems. We all know making their hard suit locked doesn't encourage RP, just stop making up bullshit. The firing pins are great though and pretty much do their job perfectly, stopping greyshirts from disarming ops and robusting them with their own guns.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:19 am #87232

Saegrimr wrote:He's just behind the times, so he missed all the threads we've already had about all the changes he's complaining about and then finally gave up when it was clear nothing would come of it.

Also, we should all be thinking about what saegrimr said.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:28 am #87237

PKPenguin321 wrote:I never understood why we didn't just get firing pins AND explosive implants.

You did.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:28 am #87238

stats

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:32 am #87239

Paying a shit ton of TC for the explosive implant is not the same cheridan. It needs to be a default implant.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 11, 2015 4:38 am

I don't understand what is so bad about the crew getting OP gear if the ops are scaled to crew pop anyway. If they have time to loot a body it means the nuke crew split up, which means they're going to lose anyway.

If the crew isn't supposed to be able to hurt them why have them scale with the number of assistants?

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:38 am #87242

Yeah, pretty sure all the worthwhile abductor equipment are locked so only abductors can use it

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:14 am #87248

ThatSlyFox wrote:Paying a shit ton of TC for the explosive implant is not the same cheridan. It needs to be a default implant.

The whole point of the change was to increase player freedom. If I don't want to explode when I die, I shouldn't be forced to. If players want to try and roleplay with captured operatives, they should be able to even if it's "not a roleplay mode". And if someone does want to explode when they die, that's ok too. That's why the implants are still available. But they can't be free. Because then it's standard equipment again, and people will be expected to use them even if they don't want to, and that freedom goes down the drain.

As far as the cost, right now they're 6 TC.
That's the same price as a single minibomb, a Detomatix, or an Emag. A c20r costs 14, the teleporter board which does basically nothing is 40.

I think the cost is pretty reasonable considering the blast is a good deal stronger than the minibomb, and keep in mind that if you're going to use it, you're either on the front lines with crew surrounding you trying to toolbox you, or in the brig surrounded by officers who don't expect you to explode..

Kor wrote:I don't understand what is so bad about the crew getting OP gear if the ops are scaled to crew pop anyway. If they have time to loot a body it means the nuke crew split up, which means they're going to lose anyway.

I agree with you there. A lot of fuss has been made over this but as far as actual impact upon the game, teams that were gonna win before this change are still gonna win after it.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:18 am #87249

Just add a single box of explosive implants to the nuke-op briefing room. Blowing up becomes a choice again, and with no negative impact on TCs.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:20 am #87250

Oldman Robustin wrote:Also apparently the hypospray injects Saline-Glucose.

Definitely not intended, will look into.

Oldman Robustin · Mon May 11, 2015 5:37 am

Cheridan wrote: The whole point of the change was to increase player freedom. If I don't want to explode when I die, I shouldn't be forced to. If players want to try and roleplay with captured operatives, they should be able to even if it's "not a roleplay mode". And if someone does want to explode when they die, that's ok too. That's why the implants are still available. But they can't be free. Because then it's standard equipment again, and people will be expected to use them even if they don't want to, and that freedom goes down the drain.

I've read through this thread, seeing many opinions. I disagree with many of them, but they were reasonable.

When I read these 7 sentences, my bullshit detector was off the charts.

Nukeops have ALWAYS been elite fucking soldiers who would gladly give their lives to help complete the mission. Them having explosive implants and cyanide pills was a crucial part of that imagery. These were members of a force so dedicated that they would gladly kill themselves if it meant preventing interrogation or enemy acquisition of their equipment.

Now what are they? Guy's who's hardsuits are 2 sizes too small and who can CHOOSE to roleplay as a dedicated syndicate operative if they FEEL LIKE IT? Why not add fucking clown horns, furry suits, dragon dildos, and goddamn latex spacesuits so we can let ensure that EVERY PLAYERS GET TO ROLEPLAY NUKEOPS IN THEIR OWN SPECIAL WAY.

Nukeops ARE an elite military force, default explosive implants were a very core part of their character, there was a 0% fucking demand to remove the implants for "freedom/roleplay reasons". I have never ever heard anyone say "Well I really don't like exploding when I die, I prefer that the crew get to drag my mangled corpse around".

It would be generous to call the raisins for this change flimsy. And I know since I came back I've seen Cheridan called out 3 times in OOC chat for this change alone. It's clear that most community members don't appreciate what you've done, nobody is ever going to BUY explosive implants for fucking roleplay purposes when they are already struggling to win more than 25% of rounds.

Yes you were expected to Deathgasp if you got caught, but you were also expected to stay with the group, bring a pinpointer, watch for friendly fire, and follow directions... there are 100 expectations from nukeop members and gutting one of their signature characteristics to somehow lessen this burden accomplishes jack-shit.

Only thing you're proving here Cheridan is Coderbus's reputation for being insanely stubborn on reversions is true.

Also my original post has nothing to do with roleplaying, being captured, or any of that. It's that Nukeops becomes a MATERIALLY LESS ATTRACTIVE GAMETYPE WHEN CRIT = DEATH. Being knocked into crit by an errant explosion, focused laser fire, or enthusiastic toolbox owner before being rescued by Ops is a VERY NORMAL OCCURENCE. I always brought medkit supplies with the squad if we were taking a combat route. Now as soon as I'm low I have to strip the suit and go hide and heal where previously I could stick it out and have someone drag me out if I went down... Now I can't do that because because our healthbar just got fucking cut in half with these changes. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about this aspect of nerfing medical treatment of operatives. If Ops had a super high win rate I might accept the "just buy the hypospray (once it gets fixed)" excuse. But the stats show what I've already suspected, Nukeops win rates are significantly down and changes like this are part of the reason why. Forcing more TC spending for basic capabilities like "being able to heal each other" is not good for the game right now. Hypo is good for rapid triage when you dont have time to scan their body and selected injured parts and apply the appropriate healing type. It shouldn't be our ONLY option for healing each other out of crit though.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:38 am #87255

Cheridan wrote: I think the cost is pretty reasonable considering the blast is a good deal stronger than the minibomb, and keep in mind that if you're going to use it, you're either on the front lines with crew surrounding you trying to toolbox you, or in the brig surrounded by officers who don't expect you to explode..

Only the fire part.
Implant is (0,1,5,5)
Minibomb is (1,2,4,2)

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:59 am #87258

If you die as a op during nuke ops it doesn't matter if you blow up or not. Your involvement is over.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 11, 2015 6:04 am

You know there was a time before explosive implants right?

When they had goofy puffy red space suits and revolvers only.

Those were the days.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:54 am #87273

Eh, someone buffed the explosive implant to go from just gibbing the Operative and knocking down anyone next to the op to essentially being a mini explosion.

Honestly if you want to role play being "captured" then just don't use your explosive implant and hope you aren't killed.

Before this change people were always wary of going near a dying Nuke Op simply because at any moment they could explode and harm/crit anyone near them. Now whenever a Op is knocked into Crit it becomes a feeding frenzy as everyone rushes over to nab some loot.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:43 am #87298

leibniz wrote: Only the fire part.
Implant is (0,1,5,5)
Minibomb is (1,2,4,2)

Hm. I based them off the explosions that blob-welderbombs do which always seemed pretty destructive. The size can be made bigger easily.

ThatSlyFox wrote:If you die as a op during nuke ops it doesn't matter if you blow up or not. Your involvement is over.

The tactical medkit comes with a combat defibrillator that can revive dead operatives.

Steelpoint wrote: Honestly if you want to role play being "captured" then just don't use your explosive implant and hope you aren't killed.

Again, that isn't an option because you would be willingly supplying the station of equipment, diminishing the team's chance of succeeding in the hopes that maybe someone will interact with you meaningfully. That's a shitty choice to force upon someone.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Now what are they? Guy's who's hardsuits are 2 sizes too small and who can CHOOSE to roleplay as a dedicated syndicate operative if they FEEL LIKE IT? Why not add fucking clown horns, furry suits, dragon dildos, and goddamn latex spacesuits so we can let ensure that EVERY PLAYERS GET TO ROLEPLAY NUKEOPS IN THEIR OWN SPECIAL WAY.

I was referring to gameplay freedom of being able to rather than roleplay freedom, but even if it's about roleplay freedom it's still completely valid.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3389 - The community has established that they want a completely free and open roleplaying environment. Clown Ops are indeed a gimmick that operatives have sometimes asked for. As well as Pizza Delivery Ops, or posing as a Centcom Nuke Disc Inspector, etc.
According to you, they're all playing the game wrong.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:07 am #87299

Critical difference now however Cheridan is that now Ops have to spend a pool of their very limited amount of TC's to buy a implant to deny the crew their equipment. If not then it is a literal case of '(un)willingly supplying the station of equipment' because you have no choice in that matter once your down.

Pre implanted Explosive Implants formed a core part of Nuke Ops game play, with the whole point being about denying the crew your equipment. If you went down (crit or otherwise) then you had to chose between either detonating your implant now while you alive to avoid having your immedient equipment (Guns or Shields) fall into the crews hands or hope you get backup/crew aren't fast enough to loot you. On the other hand the crew also had to make a hard choice between trying to quickly secure a Ops firearm (and risk getting blown up on) or to safely terminate the Op from a distance/wait for them to die.

Because right now all we have is people rushing Ops, without concern about death, for their gear when they go down, and the few Ops that do get captured get to spend a glorious 10-20 minutes of being dragged around by some smug Captain that did nothing to capture you but takes all the credit while absolutely nothing happens because 4/5ths of Op teams fail their mission.

This change simply gives the crew better equipment and further diminishes Ops chance of success, which is already abysmally low.

Incomptinence · Mon May 11, 2015 10:15 am

I once ONCE didn't trigger the implant back when we had it (basically whole team failed in front of my eyes no need to die). But that was just to rp then attempt a goofy perma escape attempt using another captured op as a breaching charge that failed obviously. Still much better than firing pins, the problem wasn't your average op gun it was all the other tacticool shit that makes an op more than a random killer say you know like the PIN POINTER the real most essential piece of equipment. Every looted pinpointer sends a vigilante straight to ground zero the objective bad new worse than a gun you can deny them most of the ammo for.

Implant could also damage people originally the hope of maybe catching the comdom in the explosion and tipping him over into crit this was the way of good thrilling design.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:42 am #87308

Steelpoint wrote:Critical difference now however Cheridan is that now Ops have to spend a pool of their very limited amount of TC's to buy a implant to deny the crew their equipment. If not then it is a literal case of '(un)willingly supplying the station of equipment' because you have no choice in that matter once your down.

Nobody has a problem with being "forced" to buy good guns or mechs to kill the crew, or being forced to buy an emag to open doors, or forced to get a chamleon jumpsuit and voice changer to be stealthy. It's a piece of equipment that's available to you if you want it.

Again, if they're still seen as too expensive in terms of TC even after my first reduction, or too weak, then those values can be tweaked. Likewise if someone has an alternative suggestion to address the problems, I'm all ears. But yelling for a revert ignores the original problems.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 11:18 am #87311

But there was no original problem. No one else saw a problem, your 'fix' did not address the not problem, since it is still easier, and more reliable to loot ops now then it was previously.

RP literally does not come into because the crew can drag around a captured op with or without an explosive implant (the difference being the one with the implant will usually kill themselves), while still having looted the op, because IT DOESN'T WORK.

Previously, if you were a terrible op, you were just that. But as long as you remembered to use your implant you weren't a liability - the only things the crew would get was what was in your hands.
Now, you physically cannot stop the crew from getting every piece of gear you have, which means one poor player fucks over the entire team.

And with regards to having explosive implants as a purchasable item, you could apply the same logic to nvg's, agent cards and stechkins, shotguns, pinpointers - anything that they get for free. Start the ops naked, just lots of tc's. It gives them more freedom, right?

Incomptinence · Mon May 11, 2015 11:22 am

It is planing to fail and paying for it making it more likely that you WILL fail psychologically and resource wise. That is a deep problem with purchasing a wimpy self gib implant instead of having it as a default. Uplink implant is sorta similar but it can actually work though that is mostly due to emag power...

Same problem as lings purchasing lesser form prior to it being a quick clothes swap option. Sure you get a really good chance to get away but you basically dropped everything including weapons steal objectives access whatever you basically gave up the round in the majority of cases and it cost you points to do it.

Oldman Robustin · Mon May 11, 2015 1:21 pm

Incomptinence wrote:It is planing to fail and paying for it making it more likely that you WILL fail psychologically and resource wise. That is a deep problem with purchasing a wimpy self gib implant instead of having it as a default. Uplink implant is sorta similar but it can actually work though that is mostly due to emag power...

Same problem as lings purchasing lesser form prior to it being a quick clothes swap option. Sure you get a really good chance to get away but you basically dropped everything including weapons steal objectives access whatever you basically gave up the round in the majority of cases and it cost you points to do it.

This is why purchasing it will never work. Nobody wants to spend TC on an item that only comes into effect if they get killed/captured, when they could be spending TC on something that would keep them from having to use said implant in the first place.

Incomptinence · Mon May 11, 2015 1:34 pm

What the current set up buffs incredibly is the freedom implant. Much better choice than just gibbing yourself IF they are trying to take you alive. So punishing in fact that about no one will try to take ops alive if they think about it, guy with looting barrier + maybe instant restraint slippage? Why risk it?

kevinthezhang · Mon May 11, 2015 4:31 pm

I don't see how anyone can defend the fact that locked hardsuits prevent outside healing; This seems to me more like an unintended side effect of the locked hardsuits change.

I'd like to see some fixes for this so that Nuke Ops are not so unimaginably fragile as they currently are.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:54 pm #87439

Pretty sure that was a seperate change someone made to patches/bruisepacks etc, to not work without exposed skin.

Oldman Robustin · Mon May 11, 2015 11:09 pm

lumipharon wrote:Pretty sure that was a seperate change someone made to patches/bruisepacks etc, to not work without exposed skin.

Yea but the hardsuit change was around when I last played. Meaning whoever added locked hardsuits should have been able to foresee this.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Mon May 11, 2015 11:14 pm #87472

lumipharon wrote:Pretty sure that was a seperate change someone made to patches/bruisepacks etc, to not work without exposed skin.

I think it was changed around the time Ergo mining was put in. Much to people's hatred because the new stim pills were available for all about a week before this update meant you could no longer eat stuff through hardsuits, apply stuff through hardsuits etc.
Honestly feels like we've gone too far in the pursuit of realism than fun.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 11, 2015 11:15 pm

Akkryls wrote: Honestly feels like we've gone too far in the pursuit of realism than fun.

I wanna yell at people in space

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Mon May 11, 2015 11:18 pm #87475

Kor wrote:
Akkryls wrote: Honestly feels like we've gone too far in the pursuit of realism than fun.
I wanna yell at people in space

Well, considering that around the time you left, I think it was still par for the course for Security to execute traitors in the field with their own traitor gear without admins even thinking twice about even bwoinking you.
Now days you can't even hurt their feelings without getting bwoinked.

I hate to be all focused on the old days and all, but I really feel everything has gotten too serious.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 11, 2015 11:55 pm

Akkryls wrote:
Kor wrote:
Akkryls wrote: Honestly feels like we've gone too far in the pursuit of realism than fun.
I wanna yell at people in space
Well, considering that around the time you left, I think it was still par for the course for Security to execute traitors in the field with their own traitor gear without admins even thinking twice about even bwoinking you.
Now days you can't even hurt their feelings without getting bwoinked.

I hate to be all focused on the old days and all, but I really feel everything has gotten too serious.

No I mean I literally want to yell at people while standing in space so I can taunt security when I'm standing outside their window why can't I talk in space (besides the obvious realism answer)

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue May 12, 2015 12:03 am #87489

The same reason you can't eat through a mask. Unless you're a snowflake clown/mime. Or unless you're eating a hivelord core.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:19 am #87529

> Oldman comes back after a long hiatus after crappy changes are pushed through one by one without foresight or thought.
> Tries to contest them.

Don't get me wrong man, I love what you're doing and I've long let bygones be bygones with you, but the time of the robust or rational is long over, and no matter how much we bicker, complain, or offer uncontestable arguments against changes, nothing will change, because Coderbus culture is cancer, and feedback is not designed for honest level-to-level feedback, it is designed for quarantine.

Seriously. One person, one person alone can push through terrible changes that everyone has to live with, and it's impossible to get it revoked. This is because it's a massive faux pas to make a seperate PR reverting someone else's work (even partially), that will result in the perpetuator being ostracized and/or the PR being taken down. The person who pushed through such a crappy, unwanted, unneeded change in the first place falls to two issues, 1. a sunk cost fallacy (I've been defending it and I pushed it through in the first place without foresight -> I must defend it or I'll look like an idiot -> repeat), and 2. a persecution complex (everyone is out to get me, I'm not wrong, everyone else is). So basically no one else will stomp their foot down and revert it, and the person who pushed it won't revert it no matter how much we talk. Basically, Coderbus is a cult and we have no Chaplain. Just give up. Most of the damage Pap did still hasn't been fixed either, and he's kill.

Also, note: if a coder is truly confident in the the quality of his work, then why not provide a poll, ingame or here, as to whether the majority wishes for it to be reverted, or maintained. The only reason you wouldn't comply to such a demand is if you saw that the majority is not in your own favour, and if the majority is not in favour of such changes, you are making changes against the will of the players, and hence should not be under any pretension that it is for the sake of the players that you are coding, or that you ought to have the right to in the first place.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: As another has said we've gone far too far toward 'realism'. We should be pursuing !FUN!, not realism with no aim in and of itself. Let people eat and apply bandages through hardsuits, let people talk in space, bring back fastspace, bring back lockboxes and loosen regulations for security (I've been bwoinked for executing a goddamn confirmed traitor in the permabrig as the fucking HoS recently because I didn't get Captain approval - like what the actual fuck, what is this, Bay?).

I mean, I'm sure for the robust here, some of the most fun you could have, combat-wise were the space fights - fastspace meant that even without a hardsuit you could fight toe-to-toe with a guy with a jetpack, if only for a short time. Now? You just die like a bitch, like many of the victims of the somewhat common brig mass-murderers would tell you. Also, it's probably a good sign how bad nograv is given that gravity is never sabotaged by any antagonist, save the AI, since it slows everyone down immensely and benefits none (even with a jetpack you move pretty damn slowly and without one of the few jetpacks it's just disadvantaging to yourself).

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:30 am #87531

We can't fix this Cheridan is similar to Paprika in not understanding why people don't like their ideas.

Until coders root out all the headmins that are stubborn as mules things will stay the same

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:09 am #87551

Cheridan wrote:yelling for a revert ignores the original problems.

There were no "original problems" pertaining to explosive implants. Firing pins, for the most part, was a great PR; it solved the issue of ops being able to get disarmed and shot with their own gun at any moment, and added another level of dynamics to guns from R&D.

However, for some asinine reason (perhaps you felt you needed to counterbalance the buff to ops from giving them unlootable guns?), it also removed explosive implants which have essentially no issue (except for "muh rp," which has already been taken as a non-issue since "gameplay > rp" in terms of importance). IIRC, even in the original PR, people were saying not to remove explosive implants. This change didn't solve any "original problem" (as you put it). Instead, it created several new problems, such as ops being loot pinatas (it didn't even solve the pseudo-issue of "muh rp" since people kill ops relentlessly anyways).

Then, to solve these new problems, unremovable nuke op hardsuits were added, which added even more problems and still failed to solve the ones caused by removing explosive implants. Now ops can't even heal each other! And what's the solution being proposed? Not a revert, no! We're going to allow op hardsuits to be healed through, which will just result in the crew attacking ops with patches of chlorine trisulfurate or whatever the fuck the fire chemical is called. This is another problem that will be created if we keep denying reverting the change to op's explosive implants.

"But they still have implants!" Yes, for several TC, which is a limited and valuable resource that the ops will have better spent elsewhere. "But it's worth it, it's the same explosion radius as a minibomb!" If it's really, truly worth the exchange for the limited, valuable, round-driving force of Telecrystals, why is it that nobody buys them? Also, it doesn't have the same explosion radius, where'd you get that idea?

Cheridan wrote:Hm. I based them off the explosions that blob-welderbombs do which always seemed pretty destructive. The size can be made bigger easily.

So you're considering not a revert, but yet another change which will create more issues down the line. ("Other op used an explosive implant and it killed the rest of the ops instantly when he died near them! Explosive implants aren't worth the TC for the damage they do!")

Your points for the original change are moot, and your solutions for the new issues the original change caused is to create more changes that will just cause more issues down the line.
Seriously consider just reverting the removal of explosive implants.