Security/Traitor Balance as a Symptom of Population

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 12, 2015 12:44 pm #87609

Bottom post of the previous page:

TL;DR, sec sucks because thanks paprika for making stuns useless, and because sec officers almost have to use cablecuffs now.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 12, 2015 12:46 pm #87610

The only other real 'buff' to security that was not mentioned above is really just a minor buff to the HoS when I gave him a unique HoS firearm that's almost identical to the old energy guns (Laser and Stun) but with fewer stun rounds and some disable rounds thrown in.

Even then that was in response to the fact that the changes effected by Paprika massively nerfed the power of the HoS since his primary weapons were the Energy Gun, meaning effectively the HoS gun is a minor buff to counteract a major nerf.

Everything else Malkevin said rings completely true.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 12, 2015 1:24 pm

I'd love to give sec real tasers back. They need a real main gun, but they don't need to be melee proof tanks with magic missile. Tasers require you to aim, can be stolen, etc. Id

I dont thin making security vulnerable to weapons or requiring them to aim is "gutting" them. Nor do I think making diguises viable is doing that. There are still (7?) of them plus the captain plus the AI plus the security borg(s) plus the hop. They dont need such individual durability. As I said this is all stuff I've found while playing sec primarily. It just feels wrong when rev is so easy or when I can instantly see through a disguise by walking near someone. I won pls nerf

The discussion at hand wasnt traitor success rates either, it was "I wish we had breathing room to do anything but murder people." Its perfectly possible to win as traitor but it generally involves being incredibly quiet and boring.

If people are big against the sec huds losing the job icon I guess I understand, but I really want to lower armor values (how do you balance melee weapons if officers take half damage) and make cutting cameras easier

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 12, 2015 1:32 pm #87619

I disagree with the idea that one of the core problems with sec is their melee defence values. Those values have been set in stone for a very, very, long time and have cultivated the predominant idea that engaging a security officer in melee combat is a massive risk and likely to result in you losing unless you can stun and subdue the officer. Armour offers respectable melee defence but otherwise mediocre defence against any other attack, even a wielder can deal more damage.

I'm personally more onboard with Oldman's ideology of more so unnerfing the changes done to Traitors in some respects and overall looking at buffing traitor equipment to be more viable. Even just that one suggestion of a cheap/free emag that simply just unbolts a door would be a MASSIVE and good change to the game by itself.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 12, 2015 2:03 pm

I think melee resist is absolutely a big deal in cult and rev, who both get lots of melee weapons that dont stun (talisman is the obvious exception).Traitor not so much probably other than making e blades useless. All the surveillance is the bigger issue there.

Buffing traitors would be nice but it wont stop the AI sending sec to dogpile people, and it wont fix ling/rev/cult.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:17 pm #87622

Headrevs should get uplinks back, as a head-rev I should be able to convert someone, thrust a revolver into their hands and tell them to assassinate the HoS.

Revs should also use soda bombs more often too, I changed them to work as fire bombs a while back - they work pretty decently at setting an area of people on fire.

Armor values haven't really been set in stone that long, they were meant to be adjusted once the change from RNG based armor had been in for a while - but then that never happened and HG prevented changes happening to them after a while.

Armored used to work by rolling two 100 side dice.
If the roll was less than the armor value then that was a pass.

0 passes meant the attack went through
1 pass meant the attack was reduced by 50%
2 passes meant the attack was blocked entirely.

A number nerd would be needed to work out proper adjustments... but a rule of thumb would've been to half the existing armor values.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:37 pm #87623

Oldman Robustin wrote:3) Population scaling. Like the OP said, getting 5 traitors in a 60 person game is pretty much extended. I complained about traitor rounds being completely uneventful before I left a year ago, since then some shithead thought it would be good to nerf the traitor ratio hard and leave us with the pants-on-head retarded situation where a crew could have more fucking nukeops show up than actual traitors for certain population numbers. We need more traitors, period.

So in conclusion, hard cap isn't going to do anything... traitor sucks at any population until you get so small that nobody is playing security/AI, then traitors gets its groove back for all the wrong reasons. Anyone thinking a cap is going to fix how completely impotent traitors are right now is crossing the line into delusional town (I actually prefer 60+ as a traitor for reasons mentioned above, it gives me more opportunities to kill off camera for ID's that let me kill on camera without being properly named).

This, you're basically just plugging a hole in a structural problem, and making Sybil even less appealing.

I'm just going to point to the elephant in the closet and say that the player numbers have been going down naturally over the last half year or year - we struggle to hit above 40 people (typically 10-25) non-primetime, non-weekend now, when this definitely wasn't the case in the past, most memorably back when HBL did his old suite of late-night events. Is this a good thing? Not for the long-term viability of the server, no. If the numbers are and have been declining, the question is why are they declining? Likely, it's from recent obtuse changes, in terms of policy and content that acts against what they find fun, and the relatively mundane nature of most rounds these days, due to lower antag rates, lower pop, and and constantly removed opportunities to have fun, or be creative (e.g. removal self-surgery because 'bug', 'not realistic'). Even the combat has gotten noticeably worse, with delays to tasers, disabler-centric combat, slowspace/notfastspace, stims, Goon-fucking chem, implant-protected guns (yes, no one uses them, but they're an option), babysitting admins who'll hound security at every opportunity for IC problems (Sticky, most notably), declawed antags (that fucking trashbow and all the iterations of it recently, wizard summon spells - even the old summon-ghosts-on-the-shuttle-to-make-up-for-a-person-deficit isn't valid anymore because creativity and problem solving isn't permitted here), the more 'realistic' damage system with only partially-implemented bleeding and a delay to healing that requires you to remove half your equipment in the first place, a fucking DELAY ON SPRAYBOTTLES, WHAT ARE WE, A DARECARE? Adrenaline implant changes that knock you out for literally three minutes per use after ~30 seconds, etc. Basically, the combat has gone from robust and 'you fucked up, you die now' to 'you fucked up, oh well, you can fuck up some more before you die', at least, for the crew. Paranoia can only be elicited if ANYONE can kill you easily, but it's so easy, due to various factors (AI, population, etc.) to put the antagonist on a huge disadvantage defensively, who is already at a huge disadvantage being only one in twelve, or something, on the station. Boost the numbers, or boost their gear. At the same time, don't coddle them by making other people unable to do things to them, because that isn't fun.

Also, the antag rates are absolutely fucked. Most shifts, most of the antags (all but one-two) are quickly caught and permabrigged/killed. Then it turns into extended lite after the first 15~ minutes, and you have to bullshit a reason to leave goddamn Borestation13 or just straight off quit your job, hand back your gear, and suicide from boredom. I remember detective rounds would be 'time to prepare for the inevitable apocalypse and get as much information from the cameras (who's doing what) before you can't while investigating' and now it's just 'NEET in your office and be bored as fuck because the antag pop is so slight that, chances are, 99% of the time absolutely fucknothing is happening'.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:02 pm #87628

Traitor rates were pretty good up until SoS upped the coefficient. Used to be 6, but now it's 7-8.

Can we set them back to default 6?

I'm just going to point to the elephant in the closet and say that the player numbers have been going down naturally over the last half year or year - we struggle to hit above 40 people (typically 10-25) non-primetime, non-weekend now, when this definitely wasn't the case in the past, most memorably back when HBL did his old suite of late-night events. Is this a good thing? Not for the long-term viability of the server, no.

I disagree, I really dislike high population rounds, so the numbers returning to saner populations is comfortable with me. SS13 is becoming more diverse with other communities popping up to offer specific players what they want. TG is not dying and is probably one of the most stable SS13 communities out there.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:04 pm #87629

I don't see how you can buff certain traitor items without making them absolute bullshit. ForcefulCJS is talking about parapen C4 but that was not fun, or interesting - It was a really dull way of killing people with more or less no counterplay. The revolver is already the strongest gun you'll find on the station, and the ebow, although somewhat underused, is still really good.

Antag rates are also a little shifty in that it feels like it's always a full sec team vs 2 guys or minimal sec vs like 10

As much as I like using them CURRENTLY, I'd really like old tasers back. And/or old eguns.

Additionally, as was mentioned before, a lot of gamemodes fall the fuck apart with 60+ people, their intended design collapsing and instead becoming a mongoloid blitzkrieg because that's the most viable strat. This discussion has gotten away from population and become more about traitor balance but I guess I don't mind too much. However, unless people are going to start proposing well though out traitor buffs, or Security/AI changes that don't absolutely break them, let's bring this to a close and not have a mindless circlejerk coderhate thread.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:49 pm #87645

Scones, people have been bringing ideas. The doorjack item (unlocked PDA freebie would be best) for traitors would fix the whole 'go emag or go home' issue, since you could escape from the AI without emagging every door in maint as preparation. Add a few tick delay to apply, and lock the AI out from relocking it for 30 seconds, and you'd have a method by which traitors can escape the AI monolith, with a cost (time). It wouldn't grant access, it would just leave a method by which traitors can bolt because they didn't silence them quick enough.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue May 12, 2015 5:00 pm #87667

Frankly I wouldn't mind an item that just shorts AI control of nearby stuff, or can mark things as unusable to the AI (Consoles, doors, etc.)

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Tue May 12, 2015 8:36 pm #87705

There are three extrinsic forces that shape how a round goes: Crew Population, Antagonist Population, and Sense of Control

Crew Population: How many people are alive in the round matters a ton in modes where the antagonists aren't utterly dominating. Too much and things get crowded, faces become easy to lose track of, and any element of surprise is lost. Too few and the game becomes boring, and might die outright.

Antagonist Population: If there's not enough of a threat to fight then people get bored and call the shuttle, if there's too much of a threat people will lose hope in fixing things and call the shuttle. The balance on antagonists in a round that isn't supposed to be a blowout (like wizard/nuke ops) needs to generate the right amount of threat to keep people invested without putting them to sleep.

Sense of Control: If the crew OR the antagonists feel like they don't have the power to shape the current situation they will give up and either do nothing, or just push for the shuttle to try again.

---

In general I feel that crew population is fine (might get bad when summer comes but I have some ideas that might make superhighpop less terrible) but antagonist populations in modes with scaling numbers of antags are too low except for double agents and cult, which might be too high.

I also feel that the sense of control swings too wildly between the antagonists and the crew, either the round isn't a shitshow by the 20 minute mark and the heads/AI call the shuttle for some nonreason or it IS a shitshow and they call it for a legitimate reason. I don't see enough rounds where the status report 20 minutes in is "there's some minor problems but we can keep going".

It really worries me how the mentality from so many head/AI players is towards early shuttle calls, I really think those 35 minute rounds are failures, because it promotes that rush rounds are the new normal, which I genuinely hope isn't true. It also promotes that it's better to just start over than try to actually fight against a problem, which I think has built up a fair bit of ennui in some players who've come to expect that reset button to get mashed so often (e.g: why should I mine, do science, set up a project, do anything when it'll all get erased 20 minutes from now).

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue May 12, 2015 9:07 pm #87716

Of Kor's ideas, I think all of them are terrible with the sole exception of the portable crew monitor, and that can be simply fixxed by requiring CMO access to use, and needs an ID logged in, just like any other computer. Since this also means that a tator could see CMO with it out, disarm, steal the scanner, and then also have the CMO ID, well, that's just a bonus.

As for security vs traitors? Nerfing sec is NOT a good idea. There is already a mentality that a security officer is a loot pinata that isn't that hard to take down. When security shows up, it means that the tators/revs/whomever should be shitting themselves in worry because short of having an awesome lie ready or whatever, they are all but doomed already. Think about in real life, what is the biggest obstacle to police when they are hunting a criminal? It is figuring out who did the crime in the first place. Once that is taken care of, it is all but over for the perpetrator, it is only a question of how long it takes for the boys in blue to get you. Now, when facing things like xenomorphs and military operatives set on nuking the station, obviously the cops on the beat might not measure up, and that is fine. But for most traitors, unless they go for straight up "all TC spent on murderboner" it should be a matter of concealing that a crime happened at all in the first place, not being able to win a fight with a SWAT team.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue May 12, 2015 9:56 pm #87723

While I mostly agree with Incoming, I believe the biggest problem is that if it's a boring/slow round due to inactive, unwilling, or unrobust antagonists, the shuttle is called for a nonreason BECAUSE it's boring and few people are having fun - there's only so many things you can do without opposition or sabotage that doesn't involve Bay-level RP (that never happens here, or should). In my opinion, this is fine, at least for Sybil - Sybil has always been about quicker, more game-y and hectic rounds from the onset, autismforting and grand-scale projects have always primarily been a relic of Basil/Badger, and if most people aren't enjoying the current round due to inactive/nonexistent antagonists, then why act against the will of the people?

Conversely, some heads are noticeably trigger happy on the shuttle calls ('bomb detonated in cargo -> shuttle call even after it's fixed, Captain dead who goes MIA 5 minutes after the shift starts every round -> shuttle call, etc.) the moment things get interesting and, well, fun (at least for the remaining crew). This should be discouraged, by all means.

Furthermore, someone has to say it, but fuck the dead. I know there's some sort of fascination with keeping as many people in the game as possible at one time, from both playerbase and admins, and so from that perspective, trigger-happy shuttlecalls make sense since it maximizes the active player count. However, simply making that a core objective also limits the fun that people can have, and makes every round feel bland and, well, expendable, imho.

Oldman Robustin · Tue May 12, 2015 11:16 pm

iyaerP wrote:Of Kor's ideas, I think all of them are terrible with the sole exception of the portable crew monitor, and that can be simply fixxed by requiring CMO access to use, and needs an ID logged in, just like any other computer. Since this also means that a tator could see CMO with it out, disarm, steal the scanner, and then also have the CMO ID, well, that's just a bonus.

As for security vs traitors? Nerfing sec is NOT a good idea. There is already a mentality that a security officer is a loot pinata that isn't that hard to take down. When security shows up, it means that the tators/revs/whomever should be shitting themselves in worry because short of having an awesome lie ready or whatever, they are all but doomed already. Think about in real life, what is the biggest obstacle to police when they are hunting a criminal? It is figuring out who did the crime in the first place. Once that is taken care of, it is all but over for the perpetrator, it is only a question of how long it takes for the boys in blue to get you. Now, when facing things like xenomorphs and military operatives set on nuking the station, obviously the cops on the beat might not measure up, and that is fine. But for most traitors, unless they go for straight up "all TC spent on murderboner" it should be a matter of concealing that a crime happened at all in the first place, not being able to win a fight with a SWAT team.

I don't know what game you're playing but sec is still terrifying to almost every type of antag, unless the sec is unrobust in which case even deathsquad gear wouldn't make them intimidating.

Sec has an almost exclusive monopoly on ranged weaponry and in a game of "he who stuns first, wins" having a taser and pockets full of flashbangs means you've got a massive advantage over non-ranged opponents. I've got a ton of experience playing both sides of the field and I will almost always run from sec, maint is not a fun place to fight tasers (1x1 maint hall with a projectile flying down it = GG) and maint is the only place you can openly fight security without the AI fucking you over.

Sec discussion is derailing the thread, it should be pretty clear that traitors aren't scary anymore and that buffing them while taking a few modest steps against AI omniscience will do them a lot of good.

Oldman Robustin · Tue May 12, 2015 11:22 pm

Scones wrote:I don't see how you can buff certain traitor items without making them absolute bullshit. ForcefulCJS is talking about parapen C4 but that was not fun, or interesting - It was a really dull way of killing people with more or less no counterplay. The revolver is already the strongest gun you'll find on the station, and the ebow, although somewhat underused, is still really good.

Antag rates are also a little shifty in that it feels like it's always a full sec team vs 2 guys or minimal sec vs like 10

As much as I like using them CURRENTLY, I'd really like old tasers back. And/or old eguns.

Additionally, as was mentioned before, a lot of gamemodes fall the fuck apart with 60+ people, their intended design collapsing and instead becoming a mongoloid blitzkrieg because that's the most viable strat. This discussion has gotten away from population and become more about traitor balance but I guess I don't mind too much. However, unless people are going to start proposing well though out traitor buffs, or Security/AI changes that don't absolutely break them, let's bring this to a close and not have a mindless circlejerk coderhate thread.

Parapen + C4 just to kill a target before going AFK in a pod was stupid. But, and I said it before when these changes were introduced, stuff like parapen C4 was the backbone of traitors being able to elevate their presence on the station. Parapen + C4 meant even the HoS or Captain wasn't safe from being killed and "replaced". I'm not asking for parapen or c4 back, but they need buffs elsewhere to make up for the fact that high-profile crew like Cap/HoP/HoS will generally stay on camera nearly the entire shift and that makes them virtually unkillable without stuff like the parapen. Parapens gone, so traitors NEED a way to reliably kill on camera without them immediately getting bolted in and that's why I made the suggestions I did.

Incoming wrote:There are three extrinsic forces that shape how a round goes: Crew Population, Antagonist Population, and Sense of Control

Crew Population: How many people are alive in the round matters a ton in modes where the antagonists aren't utterly dominating. Too much and things get crowded, faces become easy to lose track of, and any element of surprise is lost. Too few and the game becomes boring, and might die outright.

Antagonist Population: If there's not enough of a threat to fight then people get bored and call the shuttle, if there's too much of a threat people will lose hope in fixing things and call the shuttle. The balance on antagonists in a round that isn't supposed to be a blowout (like wizard/nuke ops) needs to generate the right amount of threat to keep people invested without putting them to sleep.

Sense of Control: If the crew OR the antagonists feel like they don't have the power to shape the current situation they will give up and either do nothing, or just push for the shuttle to try again.

---

In general I feel that crew population is fine (might get bad when summer comes but I have some ideas that might make superhighpop less terrible) but antagonist populations in modes with scaling numbers of antags are too low except for double agents and cult, which might be too high.

I also feel that the sense of control swings too wildly between the antagonists and the crew, either the round isn't a shitshow by the 20 minute mark and the heads/AI call the shuttle for some nonreason or it IS a shitshow and they call it for a legitimate reason. I don't see enough rounds where the status report 20 minutes in is "there's some minor problems but we can keep going".

It really worries me how the mentality from so many head/AI players is towards early shuttle calls, I really think those 35 minute rounds are failures, because it promotes that rush rounds are the new normal, which I genuinely hope isn't true. It also promotes that it's better to just start over than try to actually fight against a problem, which I think has built up a fair bit of ennui in some players who've come to expect that reset button to get mashed so often (e.g: why should I mine, do science, set up a project, do anything when it'll all get erased 20 minutes from now).

Liked how the analysis started, not how it ended though. The round length problem is largely a symptom of how shitty traitors and changelings are. When traitor/ling feels like extended you get a weird mix of "THERES NO EMERGENCY, IM RECALLING UNTIL THE 2 HOUR MARK" and "HOLY SHIT NOTHING IS HAPPENING CALL THE SHUTTLE". Once these antags have the power/incentive to actually antagonize again, there will be a reason to let the round play out.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:55 pm #87748

Theoretically you could get a camera bug (which is pretty cheap now), bug all the cameras in an area, then shut them all down with the click of a button.
You'd have to plan the kill pretty well though to make it useful.

Of course I'm pretty sure Silicons get notifications if you take cameras down this way, and you can physically see the bright blue glow around the camera, same as when it's emp'd.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:58 pm #87753

A simple solution to all of this would be to give traitors new and more varied escape mechanisms, and for cheap. One use, of course.

Spoiler:

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed May 13, 2015 1:53 am #87761

>Cap/HoP/HoS will generally stay on camera nearly the entire shift and that makes them virtually unkillable without stuff like the parapen. Parapens gone, so traitors NEED a way to reliably kill on camera without them immediately getting bolted in and that's why I made the suggestions I did.

Varying levels of incompetency and lack of crew awareness mean cap/hop/hos are killable given skill, luck and planning.

They already are fairly well-stocked with options to evade detection and sometimes you just have rounds where stealth and escape isn't easy. I can understand lowering the cost on the stealth/camouflage items, like the camera bugs to 1 tc, syndicate/binary keys to 4 tc, and maybe the chameleon projector to 6 tc to help with stealth.The EMP flashlight could also be modified to work at range and be given a few more other disguises like a welder or even toolbox. I'm not sure if they can be, but the EMP grenades you get in the EMP kit could be made to accept signallers and other devices. Balance seems fine otherwise.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed May 13, 2015 2:15 am #87768

camera bugs are already cheap as chips, and are pretty robust.
As well as the different upgrades you can use in them (universal lets you view ALL cameras, tracking lets you track people on bugged cameras, sabotage lets you disable all bugged cameras with a click), they can also be accessed and used while in your pocket, which is pretty handy, since it lets you use them in public.

Cham projector is too good to make it cheaper - it's a super robust tool that caneasily be used to murderbone the shit out of people, or just generally be uncatchable.

EMP kit has the implan and nades for ranged - the flashlight is already really good. It recharges quite quickly, so you can use it to disable sec officers, take out cameras or even ghetto hack airlocks.

What traitors need is a black bag.
Stun some mook, then stuff a black bag over their head and drag them into maint cuffed. This would make them come up as unknown, as well as obviously blinding them.
It would also make for some great gang/shitcurity gimmicks.

Also syndie cards need to be cheaper.

Fuck, basically camera tracking is too powerful for the AI.

What if there was a delay when tracking someone?
Like you click their name in the list/radio, then it comes up with searching for target for X seconds, before finding them, or saying not on cameras.
This could give traitors a window of opportunity to get off cameras before the AI can home in on them.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed May 13, 2015 3:41 am #87778

no, the delays are bad enough with my aussie internet and fuck having to deal with the average impatient retard that starts yelling ai rogue!! when I don't open the doors for them quick enough.

Why not an item that makes someone untrackable to the AI. Something like an agent card but targeted at someone.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 13, 2015 4:15 am #87781

smh you guys are overthinking this without any real data to back you up.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 13, 2015 5:03 am #87783

One thing that would rebalance security vs. traitors, and did so in the past for years, is sec antag.

I'm just saying.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed May 13, 2015 5:45 am #87792

Reimoo wrote:A simple solution to all of this would be to give traitors new and more varied escape mechanisms, and for cheap. One use, of course.

Spoiler:
Also for people who are calling for a new map, I'm going to shamelessly shill for the map that I'm working on right now - https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3490

Like the miner's wormhole jaunter?

>>Sec antag.

We had it, it was terrible, it got changed to what it is now for a damn good reason.

>> Bag on head.

I like it, have it function kind of like cuffs that cover the head slot and maybe include cuffs as part of the same item.

RocKeD · Post by **RocKeD** » Wed May 13, 2015 8:03 am #87813

Scones wrote:clandestine maint business

Haha.

This is just a theory but if traitor's had a better way or more of an incentive to cooperate together it might not be as difficult. I do believe your point though, sometimes this is hard but this is really just a factor of the map. If you think about it there isn't really a whole lot of secluded places except Virology or maybe the solar panel rooms for example.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:27 am #87821

Incentive to cooperate? Wasn't there a thought, ages ago, that the two traitor encryption keys should be merged?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed May 13, 2015 10:31 am #87835

Reimoo wrote:A simple solution to all of this would be to give traitors new and more varied escape mechanisms, and for cheap. One use, of course.

Spoiler:
Also for people who are calling for a new map, I'm going to shamelessly shill for the map that I'm working on right now - https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3490

It needs to be bigger than Box.

callanrockslol · Wed May 13, 2015 1:04 pm

RocKeD wrote:
Scones wrote:clandestine maint business
Haha.

This is just a theory but if traitor's had a better way or more of an incentive to cooperate together it might not be as difficult. I do believe your point though, sometimes this is hard but this is really just a factor of the map. If you think about it there isn't really a whole lot of secluded places except Virology or maybe the solar panel rooms for example.

There's plenty of places people don't often go in maint, probably more than a few you don't even know about.

Scott wrote:
Reimoo wrote:A simple solution to all of this would be to give traitors new and more varied escape mechanisms, and for cheap. One use, of course.

Spoiler:
Also for people who are calling for a new map, I'm going to shamelessly shill for the map that I'm working on right now - https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3490
It needs to be bigger than Box.

It should probably not look like a redesigned box either. Being larger AND more claustrophobic would be a plus too. Endless maint tunnels that you can get lost in would be amazing.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed May 13, 2015 6:51 pm #87896

I still want a map that's basically BIG!BOX and have on several occasions tried to start modifying the existing box to just have stuff like slightly wider corridors, more open spaces, and a few more hidden crannies.

Never got far though, because byond map dev is fucking awful

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed May 13, 2015 6:56 pm #87897

I want to see a station layout thats as ad-hoc and bolted together as uterus was.

Basically looks like a basic research station was expanded to mine and process the precious plasma, then everything else got added to support that

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:44 pm #87943

Choose from the following open positions:
Assistant (28)

This is good and fun guys

onleavedontatme · Thu May 14, 2015 1:21 am

Scones wrote:Choose from the following open positions:
Assistant (28)

This is good and fun guys

Maybe migrants will help a little.

onleavedontatme · Thu May 14, 2015 1:23 am

I also dislike traitor items as a means to balance against the AI because that leaves out cult, rev, changeling, and thralls/shadowlings. It also forces you to buy said traitor items instead of being able to use whatever tools you have around you, which is a terrible waste of the sandbox elements of SS13

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Thu May 14, 2015 1:31 am #87999

Kor wrote:I also dislike traitor items as a means to balance against the AI because that leaves out cult, rev, changeling, and thralls/shadowlings. It also forces you to buy said traitor items instead of being able to use whatever tools you have around you, which is a terrible waste of the sandbox elements of SS13

It just doesn't seem like those modes (save changeling, which get uplinks in the vast majority of rounds anyway) have the same balance and pacing issues as traitor does. And no matter what your job's tools are, there are a few blind spots that uplink gear can fill in. You can't make things easy enough for traitors who don't use TC without making things too easy for traitors who do use TC.

Oldman Robustin · Thu May 14, 2015 2:02 am

Kor wrote:I also dislike traitor items as a means to balance against the AI because that leaves out cult, rev, changeling, and thralls/shadowlings. It also forces you to buy said traitor items instead of being able to use whatever tools you have around you, which is a terrible waste of the sandbox elements of SS13

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.

Rev beats AI simply with sheer numbers, and sec will often harm too so it leaves the AI in a poor position to help anyone when both sides are equally harmful. Cult has an advantage because it can FORCE security/borgs/etc. into maint to fight them or else constructs/Narsie become a major threat. Stun talisman is better than just about any traitor item too. Cult is also an organized team with private comms, who can handle a security sweep of their area with coordination and proper ambushes. Since cult can "win" without ever showing its face on camera, AI isn't as much of an issue. Shadowling's struggle with the AI is redundant since anywhere the AI can see you, is probably well lit, which means you shouldn't be there in the first place. Shadowlings are well adapted to maint and also can "win" without needing to ever appear on camera (until they ascend).

Suffice it to say that if anti-AI items become "MUST HAVE" then that's a symptom of a problem that traitors are way too fucking weak vs. AI.

I also proposed making the doorjack 0TC, free once you've unlocked your PDA.

Traitors need better answers to the AI if they are actually going to do their job of antagonizing the station.

Also topkek at whoever said the chameleon projector was "too robust" to be reduced in cost. That's the stupid goddamn mentality that got traitors into this situation in the first place. "OH BUT VOICE CHANGERS ARE TOTALLY OP IN A CERTAIN CONTEXT WE CAN'T REDUCE THEIR COST OR TRAITORS WILL OVERRUN THE STATION WITH THEIR ULTIMATE POWER... OH AND AGENT ID CARDS ARE TOTALLY OP TOO, AND NOSLIPS, AND BINARY ENCRYPTION, AND EVERYTHING ELSE... TRAITORS SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD MORE THAN 2 USEFUL ITEMS OR ELSE THEY WILL BE UNSTOPPABLLEEEE".

Get over yourself, traitors are so far away from being a serious force it's not even funny. If they don't utilize the singularity or the AI, they are pretty much limited to a couple maint kills at best, with the rest of the traitors being 0TC newbies or unrobustmen who buy double eswords and get dunked by the first person they encounter.

onleavedontatme · Thu May 14, 2015 2:07 am

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Kor wrote:I also dislike traitor items as a means to balance against the AI because that leaves out cult, rev, changeling, and thralls/shadowlings. It also forces you to buy said traitor items instead of being able to use whatever tools you have around you, which is a terrible waste of the sandbox elements of SS13
Suffice it to say that if anti-AI items become "MUST HAVE" then that's a symptom of a problem that traitors are way too fucking weak vs. AI.

Literally the point behind my post. I'd rather scale the AI back somehow than give traitors a must have snowflake item, because that is just a band-aid solution

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:15 am #88015

I said that about projectors, while simultanously suggesting other items SHOULD be cheaper, because the projector can, and often is, used to ggnore murderbone the shit out of people.

You can sit there hidden, as anything, pop out and insta e-bow someone then beat them to death with an extinguisher.
And then hide near the corpse and gank whatever poor fuck tries to recover the body, because they don't even know there's anyone there.

It's the same thing why lockers are so gay - they're this invulnerable defence that can only be broken by shooting it repeatedly with lethals (which by extension means they won't be on stun), while giving you perfect vision, ready to pop out and insta stun people.

The projector when used for actually being sneaky, it's fine. But that's not the only way it can, or is, used.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 14, 2015 4:22 am #88039

I fully agree with Oldman in that a AI bolting doors down is usually a death sentance to any traitor, and I like the idea of a 'door jack' that can unbolt a door so long as you use a unlocked PDA. This gives a nice counterbalance that if you want to unbolt a door you have to unlock your PDA.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu May 14, 2015 4:31 am #88041

QuartzCrystal wrote:Hard population cap at 50.

How many times do we have to tell you that there are 55 job slots? Hardcap 60 at most.

RocKeD · Post by **RocKeD** » Thu May 14, 2015 5:38 am #88049

iamgoofball wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:Hard population cap at 50.
How many times do we have to tell you that there are 55 job slots? Hardcap 60 at most.

Hardcap 60 in the least you mean?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:13 am #88051

This is going off topic but I think a migrant solution would be the better way forward with dealing with overpopulation instead of placing a hard cap on the server population.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu May 14, 2015 8:35 am #88062

lumipharon wrote:I said that about projectors, while simultanously suggesting other items SHOULD be cheaper, because the projector can, and often is, used to ggnore murderbone the shit out of people.

You can sit there hidden, as anything, pop out and insta e-bow someone then beat them to death with an extinguisher.
And then hide near the corpse and gank whatever poor fuck tries to recover the body, because they don't even know there's anyone there.

It's the same thing why lockers are so gay - they're this invulnerable defence that can only be broken by shooting it repeatedly with lethals (which by extension means they won't be on stun), while giving you perfect vision, ready to pop out and insta stun people.

The projector when used for actually being sneaky, it's fine. But that's not the only way it can, or is, used.

Working as intended.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 14, 2015 9:23 am #88070

I never said it wasn't.

I said it shouldn't get it's cost reduced.

Oldman Robustin · Fri May 15, 2015 2:00 am

If sec has caught you in chameleon mode they can just follow you around at a safe distance and call for backup until there's 10 greased up dudes ready to knock you out of disguise and validate you.

It's a mediocre traitor item at best.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri May 15, 2015 3:48 am #88266

Oldman Robustin wrote:If sec has caught you in chameleon mode they can just follow you around at a safe distance and call for backup until there's 10 greased up dudes ready to knock you out of disguise and validate you.

It's a mediocre traitor item at best.

> Not just flashbanging them.

Oldman Robustin · Fri May 15, 2015 8:06 am

I would've said flashbaning but I never got to try it since nobody ever takes the shitty projector anyway unless its the clown projecting a horn as LE FUNNY MEME TRAITOR.

Anyone, bump traitor up to 30 points for a week. Or give them Syndie uplink as default for a week.

ANYTHING to make traitor feel less like extended and give some of these changes a chance under real game conditions to shut down the haters who think giving traitors even 1 more TC is going to make them unkillable space gods.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 15, 2015 8:30 am #88304

Would be interesting to double the starting amount of TC's that Traitors AND Nuke Operatives get. Right now Op win rates are abysmally low (sub 20% on anything past low pop) and Traitors could get a boost.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 15, 2015 8:36 am

Doubling starting op TC just makes buying 2 syndieborgs the new meta instead of 1

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 15, 2015 8:44 am #88308

If that's the big game breaker (especially considering Syndi Borgs got badly nerfed a while ago) then we can just increase their price.

Otherwise its still a good idea.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri May 15, 2015 1:37 pm #88328

From the Nuke Op rounds I observe or join, it seems that the low winrate is down to really bad choices by the Nuke Ops, or simply getting swarmed by crew. Op round after Op round, I see the team split up and get picked off by sec/crew. Also, not ONCE have I see a single Op use a tear gas grenade. Sec players do not yet have a habit of preparing internals, which means that they CAN slow an assault with them. I do not see Ops using their flashbangs against regular crew either. Some of these losses are completly expected though, I have seen Sec properly team up and coordinate against the Ops many times as well.

I admit that I am part of this problem; I am very unrobust when it comes to combat situations, and I do not know how what to do when I am facing a formidable opponent. It is not just Sec, either. I am so terrible that I have had my my sword slapped out of my hand by an assistant (Bryce Pax) and beaten with it. I have had my gun disarmed as well. Heck, I have even blown myself up once or twice!

The skill of the players involved is a massive factor that can negate even the best of equipment.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Fri May 15, 2015 1:45 pm #88330

I think using stealth also became less popular with changes. The new hardsuit modes, guns and whatever are.. well, cool and neat.
So usually people dont ever step out of suits.
But in my experience, combined stealth+assault is very powerful.
The attack team makes their way through the station, gunning down everyone, while a lone stealth-op can casually intercept the fleeing captain or mingle with the crowd at escape, set off a good minibomb and get the disk if they are lucky.